Update, 3/9/10: Rotunda says he is not the person with whom Yoo had this email exchange. See this post for a discussion of the further puzzles that presents. I apologize to Rotunda for assuming he must be the person in the report.
There’s an interesting passage in the OPR report (PDF pages 58-59 in the Final Draft) showing how John Yoo, faced with the prospect of incorporating affirmative defenses in the Bybee Memo but apparently knowing little about them, wrote to someone to ask for help. The passage is the only part of the OPR Report where Yoo asks for help.
More interesting still, that passage in the Second Draft (PDF 33-34) of the memo has slightly fewer redactions which reveal that Yoo wrote to a law professor for help.
On July 22, 2002, Yoo sent an email to [redacted] University law professor [redacted] asking him to explain how common law defenses were incorporated into federal criminal law.34
[Redacted] responded that he was “just headed out” but explained in a short email message, without citing any specific statutory or case law authority, that federal courts generally accept and recognize common law defenses.
34 Yoo’s email reads as follows:
I’ve got a work question for you. How are the common law defenses, such as necessity, self-defense, etc., incorporated into the federal criminal law? From what I can tell, there is no federal statute granting these defenses, yet federal courts recognize that they exist. Is there some Supreme Court case that requires or mentions them? [my emphasis]
What professor, I wondered, was Yoo asking for help writing his torture memos?
Helpfully, OPR includes a list of names in Appendix C. While there are a few titles redacted, there is just one professor listed: Ronald Rotunda, Professor, Chapman University School of Law. In other words, it appears that Rotunda was the professor Yoo asked for help (note: Rotunda would have been transitioning between University of Illinois and George Mason when Yoo wrote him the email).
Given the excerpt, there’s absolutely no reason to think Rotunda did anything wrong by writing Yoo a terse response to an email. Rotunda appears to be cited in the OPR Report simply a means to show that Yoo had no fucking clue what he was writing about when he addressed the necessity and self-defense defenses. If this is the extent of the help Rotunda gave Yoo, then he simply extended Yoo professional courtesy. There’s not even any indication that–when Yoo sent the email–Rotunda knew Yoo was working on a highly classified torture memo. Furthermore, it’s clear that Rotunda is an expert on the subject Yoo emailed him on, so while Rotunda is a staunch conservative, there’s no indication that Yoo was seeking out the most ideologically convenient advice.
But there are two details I find worthy of note. First, Yoo and Rotunda would have been colleagues at Chapman University when Yoo hid out there last year.
More interesting, though, is the letter that Rotunda sent to OPR head Mary Patrice Brown in May last year, defending Yoo. The letter is being linked on a range of conservative sites in defense of Yoo, and would have been written at the end of the year Yoo spent at Chapman.
Now, Rotunda must have known that he appeared in the report, because he starts by admitting that he got sent a copy, which is what he bases his response on.
Last March, Tamara J. Kessler of the Office of Professional Responsibility sent to me an Unclassified Draft Memorandum that unnamed lawyers in the Department of Justice (“DOJ”) have prepared.
Even if they redacted his name in the memo, as they do publicly (which would seem odd given that it’s an unclassified paragraph), he presumably would remember the email.
Yet in the section of his letter purporting to reveal his own “bias,” Rotunda does not reveal that Yoo consulted him on the torture memo.
Before I proceed further, I should disclose my own personal bias. As a deontological matter, I am against torture. I agree with Jack Goldsmith that torture is “a universally condemned and morally repugnant practice.” Even the authors of the DOJ Unclassified Draft admit that “Much of the case law in fact supports the Bybee Memo’s conclusion that the term ‘torture’ should be applied to more severe forms of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.” Even in the ticking bomb scenario, I am against torture. I know that intelligent people like Professor Alan Dershowitz have advocated a “torture warrant,” but I disagree. Although I disagree with Alan Dershowitz, that fact does not mean that I cannot evaluate the issues in the DOJ Unclassified Draft, using standard principles of legal ethics. I have known Professor Dershowitz for years, and I regard him as a very competent person, although I sometimes disagree with him.
I also have to disclose that I have read the Bybee Memorandum, and it never says that torture is all right. It does discuss, and accurately describes, what the case law considers to be torture. It also collects these cases in an Appendix.
Even the authors of the DOJ Unclassified Draft admit that “Much of the case law in fact supports the Bybee Memo’s conclusion that the term ‘torture’ should be applied to more severe forms of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.” That is a startling admission, and one wonders why the authors placed it in a footnote at page 150 instead of in the introduction — a point I discuss below.
Mind you, his audience, then, would have known Rotunda was cited in the report. But his audience now doesn’t necessarily know that.
And amusingly, Rotunda tries to refute the claim that the Bybee Memo was meant to be a comfort letter–a Get Out of Jail Free Card–though he doesn’t touch the legal analysis that Yoo asked him for input on.
Sometimes an opinion letter by counsel is a “comfort letter.” It advises clients that they can do something without fear of liability. If the lawyer bases his opinion letter on false facts, the lawyer is liable for drafting the opinion letter. “For example, a lawyer is liable under the federal securities laws for providing an opinion letter based on facts that the lawyer knows are false. Even if the letter explicitly states that the lawyer was basing his opinion on an assumed set of facts that the client had supplied and that the lawyer had conducted no independent investigation, the lawyer will still be liable.”
The Bybee Memorandum was not this type of letter. It was not a comfort letter. It was an opinion letter that methodically discussed all of the words in the relevant statute, the ways these words have been interpreted in the legislative history, various dictionaries, other portions of the United States Code, the federal case law, state case law, international case law, etc.
The Bybee Memorandum did not give comfort. It examined the case law, legislative history, etc., and concluded that minor psychological or physical harm is not torture, while severe harm (whether mental or physical) is torture. And, it advised, if one were charged with torture, one might have some defenses that might work, or might not work. That gives no comfort. To tell me that I can raise a defense of duress, or self defense, or plead good faith if the Government prosecutes me for torture or an individual sues me for damages does not give me comfort. One could just as well say that the jury can ignore the judge’s instructions and acquit. Yes, the jury can do that, but it gives me no comfort. [citations removed; my emphasis; click through to read the rest of this passage]
That is, Rotunda–who clearly is qualified to do so–does not defend the citations Yoo mobilized to argue that torturers might be able to plead self defense or necessity. He doesn’t even touch the Commander-in-Chief section, aside from one citation of Yoo’s weakest incarnation of Commander-in-Chief power.
Rather, he engages in word games to show purported doubt in the defenses rather than claiming that Yoo cited case law appropriately.
Which, in the same way that Tim Flanigan didn’t provide any exonerating details of the July 16, 2002 meeting at which Yoo was directed to include these defenses in the memo, even though Flanigan appears to have a much clearer memory of that meeting than Gonzales or Yoo or Koester claim to, doesn’t say much for the defensibility of Yoo’s argument.
If the guy he went to for advice on these defenses can’t even defend Yoo’s use of the law, then I guess that’s a pretty good indication that his citations of the law are indefensible.
Update: Yoo’s second draft includes another response from Rotunda which again neglects to mention Yoo consulted him on the memo (though Rotunda provides a mini-CV along with his comments). In this letter, Rotunda does raise three instances in which he says others–including DOJ under Holder in the Demjanjuk case–adopted Yoo’s reasoning on intent.



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Thanks, emptywheel.
I hope our US redactors are developing a grudging admiration of your skills.
I wonder if Yoo didn’t ask Dershowitz for an opinion too since, as Rotunda makes clear, Dershowitz was advocating “torture warrants.”
(BTW, I failed miserably trying to recreate the redacted portions with Rotunda’s or Dershowitz’s names and respective law school, but I couldn’t even get the margins to left/right justify.
I’m working on a Mac. I tried Times New Roman)
But I did notice on PDF page 32, above Rotunda’s redacted name, that the word “perhaps” (which is also circled in the pdf), looks like a substitution. How else to explain the apparent whited out portions of the letters in the words (i.e., “were added because”) in the line above it? Are substitutions allowed in addition to redactions?
Oh, this is a beaut, EW! Plus, I love the alliteration. Ronald Rotunda.
Last August, Rotunda spoke to lawyer/right-winger Jennifer Rubin about the OPR report, which he had already seen. Seems like he did help write the torture memo, if he is referring to himself in any way here.
The name is pretty easy to fit. The university is not, but I’m not sure which of the three they would use.
I thought it might be Dershowitz, too (though the report is quite extensive about the way Yoo miscites Dershowitz). But I’m pretty certain it’s Rotunda. The redacted names have to be CIA people/roles under cover. And it would explain why Rotunda got a copy–because they wanted him to see wat they were going to say.
FWIW: A comment Skdadl left on a 2008 post re. Robert Mueller references a Professor Rotunda who is a she. This “she” is Kyndra Miller Rotunda, wife of Ronald. From her Wikipedia Entry:
oh my. Mr. Rotunda is fond of the bowtie.
fwiw
Dem Rep Sends Yoo And Bybee Materials To Bar Associations For Potential Discipline
Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) has forwarded materials on the writing of the torture memos to state bars where John Yoo and Jay Bybee are licensed, calling on the bar association to consider possible disciplinary action, Nadler’s office announced today.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/02/dem_rep_sends_yoo_and_bybee_materials_to_state_bar.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TPMmuckraker+%28TPMmuckraker%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo
Oh look. Liz Cheney is paying me to oppose torture again! This is the best advertising week I’ve ever had!
from a 3/09 op-ed written by Ronald Rotunda:
He takes also aim at Dawn Johnson in the piece.
Clicking away like a happy cicada.
Liz, they hate us for our freedoms! That’s why we should douse them in our US Constitutional freedoms every chance we get, like so much Holy water sprinkled on an evil spirit.
From the Chapman University page of Ronald Rotunda LINK:
http://www.chapman.edu/law/faculty/rotunda.asp
An Excerpt:
” Ronald D. Rotunda joined Chapman in 2008. Prior to coming to Chapman,…..He has co-authored the most widely used course book on legal ethics, Problems and Materials on Professional Responsibility (Foundation Press, 9th ed. 2006) and is the author of a leading course book on constitutional law, Modern Constitutional Law (West Publishing Co., 8th ed. 2007). He is the coauthor of, Legal Ethics: The Lawyer’s Deskbook on Professional Responsibility (ABA-West Group, St. Paul, Minnesota, 5th ed., 2007) (jointly published by the ABA and West Group, a division of Thompson Publishing) (with John Dzienkowski).”
No comment.
A rough draft of this letter, it looks like.
Ooooh, my fave!
You are so much more kind than Mr. Rotunda deserves.
As you know, I’ve talked about reliance memos, what Rotunda seems to refer to in his own vernacular as “comfort” memos. He takes the route I speculated about before the OPR Report came out – to hang out to dry the CIA lawyers and operatives to clean up the OLC. His approach is to say – Hey, my bud Yoo was just relying (in good faith) on what CIA told him.
The way that works is Yoo sends CIA memos/communications that say, “golly, ya know, if like, a guy kinda sorta thought that thingies being done to boo boo guys weren’t going to be torture because, the guy like believed that things being done to boo weren’t all that bad bc experts told him they weren’t that bad, then, like, golly, he could say *go for it buds*
Then CIA sends him memos/communications that says, “golly the things being done to boo boo buys aren’t that bad” and like, you told us that if someone told you that things weren’t that bad, then you could tell us guys back that it’s not torture (cuz us guys told you what we wuz doing wasn’t all that bad)
Then Rotunda shows up and says – Golly Yoo boo boo:
Except, of course, that Yoo knew the facts he was provided weren’t the facts and even if he didn’t, he didn’t need specialized knowledge to realize that he was being misinformed, and even if he was so cretinesque that the didn’t realize that, when the Abu Ghraib issue hit and he realized that, um, yeah, people are shocked and viscerally repelled by all the things I signed off on – he had a continuing duty to revamp and revisit those opinions, even after he left OLC.
Rotunda, in trying to sell out CIA to protect his friend Yoo, instead sells out himself and his own credibility. Not that you need credibility anymore – Congress, the Obamaco admin, and the Courts are all good to go with the least credible among DOJ taking the leads.
totally ot, but holy crap:
Magnitude 8.3 – OFFSHORE MAULE, CHILE
Last night I had a dream that Dawn Johnsen was appointwed special super duper prosecutor for all this war criminal shyte -then I wake up to this…
…and this is why Marcy is one of the best bloggers on the planet!! Thanks Marcy.
Whatever you took or whatever you were reading before you went to bed – don’t do that again. Dreaming about Dawn Johnsen – that’s kinda weird. ;-)
Does Deontology and bow ties mix?
“As a deontological matter, I am against torture. I agree with Jack Goldsmith that torture is “a universally condemned and morally repugnant practice.”
Is that his disclaimer…
I never heard of deontological until yesterday
Deontological Ethics
From the Greek deon meaning right or obligation: The rationality of moral obligation. A Normative Ethical theory most often associated with the German Philosopher Immanuel Kant (1724-1804) which maintains normative evaluations are rooted in some intrinsic feature of an action which gives rise to an obligation or duty. In a ‘Deontological’ system of ethics the consequences of an action are generally irrelevant to moral assessment. Rather, morality comes about from a rational agent’s recognition of its duties toward others. These duties can be grounded in different ways, from divine revelation to objective rational principles.
As a branch of Normative Ethical Theory, Deontology can be divided into two main types:
Act Deontological Theories (which include)
Situational Ethics (sometimes refered to as a prima facie Imperative Theory), and Existentialism
Rule Deontological Theories (which include)
Categorical Imperative Theories (i.e., Kantian Ethics) and
Divine Command Theories
While each type of Deontological theory finds the locus of our moral obligations in different places, they all contend that ‘goodness’ resides in our ability to recongize and keep moral obligations; the consequences of our actions are of only secondary concern, if at all.
Well, I’d go you one better, and say that Yoo had specific pre-knowledge that these documents were intended to retroactively cover up discrete crimes.
Interesting. Here’s a chicken/egg thought about it. At least in my exposure to it, German puts a lot of emphasis on Pflicht in and of itself, and the language is very clear to keep ‘darf’ and ‘muss’ distinct; none of this American English sloppiness about ‘may/must/can’. Which makes me wonder if Kant was founding his theory on what he spoke or whether what he spoke was expressing a deeply internalized aspect of his society or whether the society and language were reacting to the (eternal/universal) truth of the theory.
EW,
Your remarkable output this last week is beyond my comprehension.
Your grasp of the names, facts and dates are remarkable.
During the Watergate hearings Sam Irvin possessed the moral rectitude to force our country to look at our criminal presidency and acknowledge the lawlessness of the executive branch. When the history of the early 21 century is written I expect Marcy Wheeler’s name to be viewed the same as Sam Irvin name is remembered. Justice is closer than ever thanks to you.
A couple of things maybe worth mentioning:
1. Rotunda is saying (and in a way Mukasey says this too in his letter, as has Chertoff pretty much) that no field torturers can say that they tortured in “good faith reliance” on Yoo’s/Bybee’s memo. So over and over, the docs and testimony related to the OPR Report say – Torturers are on their own, they are not entitled to claim that OLC gave them “comfort” on their torture – light on the succor, heavy on the sucker. He’s calling Sessions et al liars for claiming that the torturers are entitled to claim reliance on the letters.
2. Conversely, Rotunda also says that if Yoo had knowledge that he was not using “all the facts” then he is “liable” for drafting the memo
What Rotunda says for Yoo also applies for other lawyers. One thing we know, from the Comey emails, is that Gonzales and Bradbury (probably Ashcroft as well, although the emails aren’t proof of that) had knowledge that the Combined Techniques memo was based on false facts (leaving out the preliminaries) and that the persons providing the “assumed” facts for all the memos had provided a series of false facts and could not be relied upon (due to all the information made available to them in the CIA IG report). So Rotunda pretty much wraps up Bradbury (and Gonzales) with a bow and hands them off, but-for the fact that Mukasey has foreclosed follow up on them. In addition, Rotunda lays out the necessity for the missing emails and demonstrates that, without knowing whether or not Yoo was aware of additional facts (something the Report doesn’t really go into much) you can’t evaluate his “liability.”
Recommendation:
A new law: Missing e-mails is punishable up to 6 months in the pen.
Fucking missing e-mails doesn’t cut it. The law should “presume” missing e-mails is a crime…
Rotunda “To tell me that I can raise a defense of duress, or self defense, or plead good faith if the Government prosecutes me for torture or an individual sues me for damages does not give me comfort.”
He forgot to include “poor judgment”
Any peasant who purposely deleted or “professionally scrubbed” e mails having to do with alleged crimes would all ready be in prison.
We know different laws apply to us than those in power
Rather than creating a new law, let’s use the old one : Obstruction of Justice.
Boxturtle (We have everything we need to proceed to conviction except a prosecutor)
AGree.
To some degree, OPR’s scope of this to exclude Ashcroft and Koester is a problem, though I understand there are institutional reasons for doing so with Koester. OPR’s scope–defined by its mandate–to exclude Gonzales, WHCO, and Addington is even more problematic.
But once you have the Mukasey rule: he gets to privately review the Bradbury memos and say, without making a legal argument, that they are good, and then rule out the consideration of sacntions for Bradbury, sinks this even more.
But I’m sure taht was all by design.
rotunda is engaged in the complicated business of retroactively explaining his previous professional behavior, aka, covering his own ass.
i guess torture, while necessary for national security, has an odor about it that casuses bow-tied deontologists to retroactively cover their, uhm, noses.
maybe a dislike of torture is inherent in our culture.
on the matter of the federalist society, could yoo and rotunda be fellow goodfellows?
The Mukasey thing re: Bradbury is frustrating not just because he shuts down the review, but also because he misdirects what the review is or should be.
OPR’s job isn’t really to review the legal conclusions in the memos – they can’t go through an investigation into the professional conduct associated with the drafting of the memos without reviewing those some, but that isn’t and wasn’t their job, especially vis a vis memos already withdrawn in part. Their job was to look into the conduct of the lawyers in connection with the drafting of the memos.
Mukasey pipes up in his letter and says (channelling Alec Guinness), “These aren’t the
droidsmemos you’re looking for” when, well, it’s not so much the memos as the lawyers that OPR was charged with looking at. OPR goes along and puts his bits in the report, i.e., we don’t have to look at those memos because of the Presidential Exec Order prohibiting their use (which, if it meant anything, would have precluded the whole of the Report) and also because Mukasey has looked at the legal conclusions of the memos.But looking at the legal conclusions wasn’t so much what OPR was supposed to do anyway – what they were supposed to do is look at the process used to get to those conclusions – - to check into, for example, the Rotunda point of whether or not other facts were known and not addressed, etc. So Mukasey saying “I’ve looked at the memos, your job is done” is kind of like the coroner showing up and saying, “I’ve looked at the body, the guy’s dead, you investigators don’t have to investigate the crime anymore. Oh, that knife sticking out of his back with bloody fingerprints on it and the bloody footprints leading out of this room into the one across the hall with the closed, locked door? Don’t worry your purty little selves over that”
The more I think about this particular op-ed, the more weird it looks.
– Rotunda is worried about the First Amendment, and while at first it looks like he’s worried about Yoo’s right and the right of Johnsen and Dershowitz, looking at this from the big picture one might wonder whether he was preemptively asserting his own right to the First Amendment to justify whatever speech he may already have exercised about the subject of torture;
– He’s also pointedly noted that Johnsen did not disclose any information about Clinton-era rendition(s) to Egypt by way of classification; is he suggesting that other OLC members have this same “protection” available to them?
– He also mentions discussing with Rep. Loretta Sanchez whether legislation banning waterboarding is likely — and yet he fails to mention his own role as mentor/counselor to Yoo in the op-ed, and does not indicate whether he has disclosed this to Sanchez when talking with her. Nor does he point out that Sanchez sits on committees under which waterboarding might be an issue.
Sanchez is on the Committee on Armed Services, including:
Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations;
Subcommittee on Strategic Forces; and
Subcommittee on Military Personnel.
and on the Committee on Homeland Security (as Vice Chair), including
Subcommittee on Border, Maritime and Global Counterterrorism (as Chairwoman).
I’ll bet I missed something else in that op-ed; I do wonder whether Yoo contacted anybody else besides Rotunda.
“To some degree, OPR’s scope of this to exclude Ashcroft and Koester is a problem, though I understand there are institutional reasons for doing so with Koester. OPR’s scope–defined by its mandate–to exclude Gonzales, WHCO, and Addington is even more problematic”
Who defines the mandate’s scope?
O/T The Humpty Dumpty Rulz:
The Fundamental Trick: Pretending That “Torture” is a Technical Term; [with updated response]; David Luban; Friday, February 26, 2010
subduction trench – look at the depth on it.
I understand there’s a tsunami warning out for Hawaii – the travel time is about 15 hours. (They got it in 1960, in the big Chilean quake that year. Warnings are much easier now.)
“After David Margolis concluded that the Bybee Memos showed mere “poor judgment” rather than professional misconduct, it was only a matter of time before someone would spin Margolis into an endorsement of the memos.”
These guys really did learn something from the Third Reich. If you are going to torture make sure you re-write the laws before you do. Protect your own ass from being held accountable. These guys took torturing to a whole new level
Be sure to include “retroactive,” and you’ve got it.
Thanks for this OT–
We have a condo in Waikiki that may be affected. Local news is predicting a 6-foot tidal wave, which should be enough to wash over all of Waikiki, as well as wipe out any tent-campers (homeless folks) all up and down the Waianae cost.
CTuttle, you got your ears on? They say Hilo bay will be hit hard.
Bob in AZ
With respect to Bradbury – Mukasey did.
****
OT and pretty much just an observation on the obvious, but the email ploy has been pretty darn successful. OPR with no IT support and no power is told what emails it can and can’t have and that huge swaths are just disappeared (kind of like KSMs children). They do not inform Congress, even though numerous other missing email cases are being publically pursued and even though the missing emails are demonstrative of a violation of law (not one, though, that OPR has any power to do anything about).
Whoever informed OPR about the missing emails “knew” about the violation of law and did nothing about it and presumably a raft of persons supervising that person. OLC as a department knew that its emails were disappeared and did nothing. Attorney General Mukasey knew about the emails and did nothing. Holder is given drafts of the Report, knew about the emails and did nothing. Margolis reviews the Report and knows about the missing emails and does nothing.
Meanwhile, courts in good faith are delaying all kinds of actions while being told about all this self-policing DOJ is undertaking. Time drags on, statutes run out, public narratives of good faith reliance and good faith drafters are set, public narratives on 3 instances of splashing water in someone’s face are set and only slow rolled over years into something else. Dribble after dribble over 10 years – starting with “golden shields” leaks and continuing through the “Bradbury exonerated, Yoo and Bybee exonerated on appeal to ‘career-guy’ Margolis” public release, are doled out.
Durham, as a CAREER PROSECUTOR has to have been exposed to the missing emails and yet, still, there is nothing done and no notifications to Congress or the archives.
And now, close on to 8 years after the dates of the missing emails, over 7 years since the death (of a young adult who was not a member of al-Qaeda and who died slowly and tortuously) by OLC solicited methods at the Salt Pit, after 4+ years of OPR investigation and more than a year after the transfer to Obama, more than a year after AG Mukasey has to have known about the missing emails, months to more after Holder and Margolis have known about the emails while the Report sat and was held and held and held – - NOW we discover that DOJ might look at what happened with the emails. Jarrett and Brown both head up OPR knowing about the missing emails and as a part of their prof responsiblities do – - – nothing.
Of course, it will take time, bc no one knows nuthin bout IT. Just the department charged with terrorism, cyber crimes, etc. is involved – no experts or nuthin. And no one knows nuthin bout those thingies – what are they called, laws? – bout preservin records.
And of course, the urgency is off bc the investigation is over. And golly – it’s not like anyone else has ever gotten into any trouble of any kind over lost emails.
So maybe, eventually, with much pushing, emails will be recovered.
But oh, wait – they have to be reviewed for classification and privilege. Add a few more years, with Republicans harping on the left wing crusade against the brave torture-killers and vetting for clearances and for what – bc the OPR investigation is done and …
Time rolls on.
Wow. Great comment. I’ve been trying to get at what in the OPR Report I felt was not clicking, and that’s it. If there’s a weakness in the report–and I think there are certainly some–it’s that they focus too closely on the memos and not enough at the behavior.
I think they needed more non-lawyers to look at the process. No offense to lawyers or anything, of course…
bay state liberal @24
i with you on this one.
e-mails never disappear from gov’t systems without deliberate effort, and quite a bit of that, being expended.
personally, i’d put money on their still being somewhere in the doj’s archives.
but as holder and crew get deeper and deeper into obstruction, the chances of these docs showing up decline, i
would guess.
It sounds like it has the potential to be absolutely horrible. Prayers for all.
I think they needed non-DOJ lawyers who weren’t under the thumb of the masters of the process. ;)
Even there (and I know I’ve kicked this dead horse too many times), it just wasn’t the right vehicle IMO.
But it’s real clear why Mukasey didn’t want the lawyers and process, even in the OPR type of investigation, looked at vis a vis the Bradbury memos (and why Bradbury was scrambling to ingratiate himself all around).
I’m no fan of Comey, but he drove the stake through Bradbury and Gonzales on the preliminaries and several other items. They indisuptably knew that they were not using the real or complete facts (leaving out the preliminaries) (which is something that Yoo’s guy Rotunda himself says makes them “liable”) for the Combined Techniques memo. They indisputably knew of the existence of at least one torture video and that what was on it exceeded what has been authorized – that they were being given false facts – and yet not only do they generate memos based on those false facts, they rely for their other facts on the same sources who lied to them originally.
Of course, that’s problematic all around bc Holder and Obama haven’t wanted to declassify anything relating to the preliminaries – the drugging and picture taking etc. would be hard to get around and the picture taking is that much more problematic of more destroyed or not produced evidence.
On this one I give it to you and CK – your guy boxed them. Completely.
That’s the heart of it, the sleight-of-hand intended to give the impression to the dominated that they’re subjugation is sanctioned by the Mandate of Heaven itself. “Bipartisanship,” by any other name, sounds to this poet like The Secret of the Two Partners, who appear as implacable enemies on the stage of society, but are one behind the scenes.
TS2P was the name of the final symbol of pharaohnic rule, a scroll, the totem of his power. It’s a trick older even than books. This is how you jack electorates by the power of myth.
Back in the day, people practiced seasonal ritual regicide: the courts of kings and queens, miming the heavens, also would willingly walk to their graves. In India, some rulers would get up on stage and slice themselves to bits–as much as they could–before passing out. Human sacrifice is a common practice among agriculturalists: from out of rot comes life; to increase life, increase death. Especially a high-value target.
Wouldn’t it be nice to keep power? But the people would go ape. What to do?
At some point, pharaohs and priests figured it out. Instead of going up there and dying in front of everyone, go backstage during a great pageant, change costume, come out and wow the crowd (they’re so easy), then return with that prize of all prizes, TS2P, a simple scroll, claiming to have traversed the entire cosmos and to have brought home the Mandate of Heaven.
Very roughly speaking, that’s a how-to for faking elections and faux bipartisanship. The only question being, as harpie noted yesterday in an apt quote of Carroll, who is the master of the Word behind the words? In the cause of torture, would that be Papa Dick and his legions of doom we see behind the curtain?
BTW, I think I’ve mentioned this, but does anyone know the three different mythical monsters Karl Rove calls himself?
Karl Rove calls himself Grendel, Moby Dick, and Lord Voldemort, according to Scott Horton. Jacking electorates by the power of myth, with the deus ex machina of TSTP, has been his specialty.
And who’s jacking us for the Dems?
Called a friend down in Waipio Valley on the Big Island. The alarms went off around 6 a.m. Thank goodness for the warnings. These alarm systems need to be everywhere vulnerable.
Hilo is supposed to get hit hard. Prayers for all.
Pardon the tangent, but I can’t let this one go. Consequences of actions are very important to Existentialism. See The Ethics of Ambiguity by de Beauvoir. Examples:
“[Each person] bears the responsibility for a world which is not the work of a strange power, but of himself, where his defeats are inscribed, and his victories as well.” (p. 16)
” . . . this [human] will thrusts itself toward the future and then chooses a perspective where such words as goal, progress, efficacy, success, failure, action, adversaries, instruments, and obstacles, have a meaning. Then certain acts can be regarded as good and others as bad.” (p. 19)
This sure is a bipartisan criminal conspiracy involving all in the top tier.
It’s going to be fun watching the principle actors tear each other apart after that first conviction.
This ain’t no Whitewater, all foam no water.
Watergate was the tampering with elections, this is tampering with the constitution- big leap in magnitude.
Damn. I have family in Hilo and south of Kailua Kona. Better make some calls now.
DarkSyde, at the Great Orange One, posted this:
Proposed law:
Obstruction by forgetting or losing your e-mails:
No more fucking gray areas…
(1) A person is guilty of e-mail obstruction if the person or persons hinders, delays, or obstructs any law enforcement review to prevent the truth. The person has 30 days to produce the e-mails.
(2) “E-mail Obstruction is a gross felony punishable by at least
six-months in the can.
Also applies to Vice-Presidential shredding and fires.
O/T I’m not sure if this has been noted: The Torture Report cites Marcy:
New Information on “Mock Burials”
Submitted by Larry Siems on Fri, 02/26/2010 – 13:34
http://www.thetorturereport.org/diary/new-information-%E2%80%9Cmock-burials%E2%80%9D
Leen @ 44:
“The alarms went off around 6 a.m.”
So also on Oahu, including Waikiki, and hopefully also up & down the Waianae coast, where hundreds of homeless camp on the beach. If Hawaii has any National Guard left that hasn’t been sent off to the Middle East, they should be combing the coasts to make sure people clear out. This is one of the reasons why I *HATE* what the wars have done to our National Guard.
Bob in AZ
Thanks, also got the most current warning at NOAA. Made my calls, hope the family has moved mauka…
Wishing the best for your family and friends, along with all the residents of and visitors to the Pacific islands.
This email is a clear admission of intent.
Thank you again for the best work. You are amazing.
this is tampering with the constitution- big leap in magnitude
Exactly – and not *just* on the attainder and due process and punishment fronts, but also on the power grab fronts. Yoo’s op ed saying that he gave all kinds of power to Obama as his parting gift is the revelation of the heart what he was doing. The Bushies/Neocons were using the DOJ and OLC set up, interwoven with classification powers, to avoid Congress and the courts in all their actions, including the blatant crimes of kidnapping innocent people, disappearing children and torture up to and including torture murders – as well as now Obama endorsed assassination powers. All designed to take place not only without Congressional and court oversight, but even with blatant destruction of evidence and lies to courts and Congress.
This is why investigations into what was going on in their subjective minds – did they “believe” – is all a bunch of nonsense imo. What needs to be investigated is the whole of the process of avoidance of law and review. Tie in every hard crime you can (Leahy’s stab at the disappeared emails, first under the laws relating to preservation – but having no penalties – is an ok start on those lines) but realize that because of the lawyers use and abuse of OLC to create private law and because of the lawyers involvement in destruction of evidence and because of the lawyers use and abuse of the processes (OPR and inhousing investigations, lies to Congress, failures to enforce subpeonas and belabored negotiations on what the Exec has to hand over and when up to a point were the persons involved have terms that have expired) to delay the release of evidence until sols have passed and even then, to go on slow rolls -because of that, the criminal approach is going to not have much impact. That leaves Congress going after people (not gonna happen) or changing states secrets and OLC and OPR and inhouse investigations processes (doesn’t look like that’s gonna happen) to disenfranchise some of the power grab; or courts refusing to turn away cases the way they have been, from Arar to el-Masri to Padilla to the victims with cases pending in numerouss courts (doesn’t look like that’s going to happen) to at the barest of bare minimums, courts taking action for the now revealed gross and deliberate violations of their orders and bar associations taking action (not based on something like the overruled OPR report, but on those judicial findings of violations of orders).
So far, that only happens when guilty Rep Senators get pushed around, not when children disappear or crazy men are tortured for amusement or the evidence of it all is destroyed despite multiple court orders pending in multiple courts.
You don’t have a legislative and judicial branch under the “Executive secrets – Executive controlled prosecutions” approach we have been living through under Bush and Obama. You’ve had a successful coup against the Constitutional Government. Yoo really did hand Obama a gift
a friend sent me this link for Hawaii tsunami info
Rotunda*s oxymoron **false (fact)** is one depiction of an ethical standard very much at the fore or hindbrain of counselors exchanging information and expertise. Often in legislative counsels I have heard even an explicit verbal conditioning as people exchange one suggestion and its followthrough. It is as if to toss the burden of liability on the requester. However, if the contacts become frequent and clearly egregiously smarmy, I have heard experts refuse to opine. It is a messy necessity among counsel to provide explicit warnings in such exercises, often a zone into which expert counsel will not venture, especially if the visage of politics is a patent part of the potential falsifications or partial factoidality of the framing of the questions.
bob schacht @51
“this is why i hate what the war has done to the national guard.”
i feel the same way.
the national guard was never intended as an extra-territorial force. and now their numbers and equipment have been decimated be 10 yrs of overseas combat.
I fail to see why Rotunda is particularly qualified for the purpose intended. He is a con law and professional responsibility academic, not an expert in criminal law and trial procedure, nor does he appear to have any experience with the actual application of affirmative defenses by criminal trial courts. Let me tell you, if you go into a criminal trial courtroom armed only with what law school professors teach you about affirmative defenses, you will get your ass handed to you on a platter, your client will get convicted and you will malpractice.
Yoo works in the freaking DOJ and he calls an academic, who specializes in other fields, for advice on technical criminal trial process? You have to be fucking kidding me; that is pathetic and incompetent all by itself.
May be true. But all the Yoo Boos are all talking about privacy suits and the like. Me, I’m going to err on the side of stroking this guy’s bow tie, while making my point.
Though that’s probably why he’s so quick to defend Yoo. Cause he realizes his advice was for shit and that’s part of what got Yoo into this trouble.
The old “accuse others of that which you yourself are guilty” routine:
Rotunda letter to Brown at OPR [emphasis added]:
http://www2.nationalreview.com/dest/2010/02/23/pinionletterrebybeememomay42009.pdf
Hi, bmaz,
I’d be interested in your take on my latest diary, where I show that Scalia is the new best friend of defense lawyers for his stand on the “honest services” aspect of fraud law being reviewed Monday in Skilling’s case.
EW — as per usual, I have been pushing myself to read down into my book pile.
Garry Wills in his recent book Bomb Power: The Modern Presidency and the National Security State deals a bit with the Yoo Memo, and notes that Harold Koh of Yale Law School was former teacher and mentor to Yoo, though eventually Koh testified to Congress that Yoo’s memo’s were “perhaps the most erroneous legal opinion I have ever read…” (p. 229) But apparently Koh was a fairly regular outside source to Yoo, promoted his career and all, even though he had no part in the finished product or how his advice was used or misused.
Wills footnotes the Koh testimony and interpretation to Charles Savage’s “Takeover: The Return of the Imperial Presidency and the Subversion of American Democracy” (Little Brown, 2007).
Not finished with Wills’s book yet — his basic thesis is that the source or origin of the National Security State rests with the “out of chain of command” authorities set up General Leslie Groves established during the Manhattan District Project, and all the rest of it over the past 65 years evolved from Groves Rules which are completely alien from any Constitutional structure. He does two chapters on Bush II incorporating this in support of his thesis.
One piece of his work makes the claim that the Nuclear or Commander in Chief authorities of the President have essentially been separated from the Presidency by the rules for continuance of Government that were set up by Rumsfeld and Cheney during the Nixon years. While the order of succession may be dictated by the Constitution (President, VP, Speaker of the House, President Pro Tem, etc.,) in fact beyond VP the next Commander in Chief and custodian of the Nukes is secret, and appointed on the grounds that most Speakers are too dumb to exercise the powers.
Explains why Cheney is such a schmuck these days — those were his powers during the Ford Administration, and Bush I. The Great Appointed One.
Now bmaz, it’s as if you skipped over all the high praise from Cap’n Jack, that the OLC just couldn’t have functioned without Yoo’s competence and experience.
Where does hitting up Rotunda on affirmative defenses fit on the timelines with Chertoff saying no on the advance declinations? You’d hate to think that after he was told no on declinations for prosecutions bc of a vote of no confidence by Chertoff in whether or not Yoo could competently recognize what was and wasn’t a crime, he then went to ask a law prof (since the Crim Div guys wouldn’t give him the answers he wanted to hear) about how you could assert an affirmative defense to the crime you were going to commit based on a memo that said it wasn’t a crime but which the head of Crim Div at DOJ said wasn’t a good enough at making the crime not a crime.
I mean, it would be kind of squiggy – after having Chertoff tell you there might be prosecutions, you wouldn’t want your follow up to him to be, “oh, well then can you help me out with how to create affirmative defenses against the charges you guys might bring later on for the acts that I’m soliciting as not being criminal but which you are saying my say so doesn’t make non-criminal?
And then you’d have to wonder if the users of the memos were being told about the declinations and that Yoo didn’t know anything about common law affirmative defenses in federal criminal actions, but he was going to see if everyone could
conspire tocome up with defenses to the acts he was saying weren’t crimes but which Chertoff had told him might be. Cuz getting some guy to bandage together a memo about your affirmative defenses before you commit the crime is nothing if not evidence of a good faith belief that you weren’t committing a crime.Yeah, this is real compelling. The mope that Yoo relied on, and Yoo’s colleague and buttlhole buddy from Chapman Law School, thinks the report excoriating Yoo is no good.
In other news, actors hate critical reviews of their performances…….
Sara,
Thanks for your comments on this important book, which tie it to some of our present discussions.
Bob in AZ
You wouldn’t expect Yoo, of all eager-to-please flunkies and given his mission assignment, to contact anyone who was actually expert and richly experienced on such matters, now would you? That would defeat the whole purpose.
(I know you know all this much better than I. I’m just having an outburst.)
ok – I clicked away and looked at the timeline and it looks like it was July 13 that Chertoff was telling Yoo there would be no advance declinations despite his shiney sparkly memo about how torture isn’t torture if The Yoo says it isn’t. From the post, July 22 Yoo goes to Rotunda. That is SO not pretty.
Is Yoo the “man in the middle” here, between Chertoff and Addington?
IOW, the reason why Yoo was trying to work around Chertoff is that he was being pressed by Addington?
I hope Addington gets his day (week? month?) in court. There should be a Federal Crime for “emotional abuse of colleagues,” with Addington as the chief example.
Bob in AZ
It appears Rotunda has had some interesting thoughts regarding Office of Counsel to the President of the United States.
I think he is a bit hollow in his anti torture stance.
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
He participated in this:
Um, he was counsel and member of the War Council?
(my bold)
And who was legal support for the Rumsfeld?
Now, I wonder how close he was with Mitchell and Jessen at George Mason?
Mary’s got some accurate overstrike font.@64
Either way, it is a pretty bleak tell.
1) Yoo asks Chertoff, a judge on the United States Court of Appeals, federal prosecutor, and assistant U.S. Attorney General. and Skeletor tells him to get a clue, cause that shit won’t fly. Yoo goes to bowtie academic Rotunda to seek the best wisdom from the faculty coffee lounge and runs with it. Not real good.
or
2) Yoo goes to the Rotunda coffee lounge first and then runs it by Skeletor, who tells him to get out with that nonsense. Yoo runs with the nonsense anyway. Also not real good.
BTW,
I have SO much more info like this.
I’ll post it a bit later. He has ties to Cheney too.
As usual, many thanks for your insight.
hmm, he hangs with Supreme Court Justices in intimate get-togethers that may reap benefits somewhere down the line…?
He was actually a “dark horse” possible nomination to the Supreme Court under Bush.
(my brother & sister-in-law are on the 4th floor of a hotel on Waikiki Beach. they may get moved next door to a taller hotel)
What, they were all naked like Bob & Carol and Ted & Alice??
Here is why he left George Mason.
Very weird indeed
Oh boy, David Corn has this guy’s background defined. Ken Starr’s right hand man.
Well worth reading the whole article.
Marcy,
The more I read about this guy, the more I have determined, he is the architect behind the scenes.
Thanks for all that info, klynn. One thing I’m not sure of is the member of the war council thought. I read that as: Rotunda was Haynes’ special cousel [which is HUGE! imo], and that Haynes [as we know] was a member of the war coucil.
But that reading could be wrong…thoughts?
klynn @70
“…federalist society,2001…”
there it is,
it had to be here somewhere in the torture issue.
the prez/vice-prez’s drive to authorize torture activites took place in the context o the federalist society’s drive to make the president the supreme power in the u.s.
- if the prez wants to torture, he damn well can torture.
which probably means david addington was the driver.
don’t neglect to consider the tactic of using an enthusiastic, ignorant underling, unwise in the ways of bureaucracy, to do a dirty job.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_rotunda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_rotunda
As a Major in the JAG Corps, Kyndra Rotunda testified at the Hearing of the Senate Sub-Committee on the Constitution [Judiciary Committee] on 9/16/08
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2008_hr/restoring.pdf
To put it nicely…what a fear mongering screed!
She also served as prosecution on the Military Commissions and a legal advisor at Guantanamo.
No you are correct, it’s my typo.
Isn’t Addington known as “Cheney’s Cheney”? He’s deeply involved in everything.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
That’s something
Yep – that’s the nuts and bolts – the crew who think that ethics involves lying to courts and Congress.
Oh yes, he is a regular wingnut gadfly; also best friends with Hugh Hewitt by the way. Rotunda, Hewitt, Starr and Doug Kmiec were like the Four Musketeers of wingnuttia out here in the west for a while.
Good point.
He likes to write.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyndra_Rotunda
[Kyndra]Rotunda is notable for her military service related to Guantanamo Bay, first as a Legal Advisor to the Guantanamo Detention Camp Commander, later as a legal advisor to the Department of Defense Criminal Investigation Task Force, then as a Prosecutor for the Guantanamo Military Commissions, and finally for publishing a book about her experience — Honor Bound: Inside the Guantanamo Trials.[3]
That story about the “riot” in Bagram is the same one his wife relates in her testimony [linked above]. Does anyone know how much of this is true?
Really looking forward to getting to Wills. Thanks for the heads up.
Right, with the meeting with Addington in between. One of the things I was wondering was whether Addington TOLD Yoo to go to Rotunda, or whether Yoo, having struggled for 6 days, called him bc he didn’t want to go back to Addington to admit he was struggling. I sort of favor the latter guess.
Yes, that’s prescisely what happened–and what the OPR report makes clear. I wish they had focused even more closely on that, plus the fact that while Addington gave the order, Gonzales, in whose name the pre-torture memo authorizations had gone out, was there as well. This was as much about protecting Gonzales (and probably behind him, Addington and Cheney) as it was setting up a prospective torture program.
This guy is a major creep:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/19990222/corn
(Hawaii tsunami watch: guess who’s in Waikiki? Kkkarl Rove!)
O/T Yoo: It’s Not the Crime, It’s the Coverup–I Know a Thing or Two About Missing E-mails; by Jesselyn Radack; 2/27/10
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/2/27/841265/-Yoo:-Its-Not-the-Crime,-Its-the-CoverupI-Know-a-Thing-or-Two-About-Missing-E-mails
can we say “total information awareness system?”
pls explain, dear mr. yoo, how we are supposed to believe that any emails could be lost if there is a system that reads everything we write?
irony is so ironic.
Nah. This was a dinner, like the cover of Alice’s Restaurant
Based solely on what you wrote (and replies so far) this was also my take on the sequence. However the email reply to Yoo was odd, I thought. It was an instant reply that said:” I’m not available now, but as you suggested, the courts do recognize those “defenses”. Bye.” Everything else reported from Rotunda suggests he is distancing himself and his fingerprints as far from Yoo as he can get. YET, he seems to have somehow managed to offer something that Yoo used, that tied Roto to the memo. My thoughts are gelling around a political (FedSociety) connection that can’t as easily be shaken as the professional one.
harpie @98
nytimes
2/26/10
by shaila dewan
article headlined:
“to court blacks, foes of abortion make racial case”.
looks as if professor rotnda has just the kind of political imagination the right-wing values.
What I’ve heard is that as long as they’re on or above the 3rd floor, they should be fine.
Bob in AZ
was in HI
It’s pretty scary how these idea-viruses can be unleashed into the population. 10 years ago, Rotundo was a carrier of this idea and today in the NYT we can see how it’s “gone viral”.
I see that it’s registering at about 1 meter. Good that it’s not higher.
Just talked to some more friends who live outside of Pahoa and they said the Tsunami alarm systems are going off on the hour. They let me hear…loud.
I had left a message earlier for my friend Steve who swims 2 miles in Hilo bay every day that he can. Let him know early that he should not be going out to swim today.
He does not listen to the news.
When John Dean visited quite a while back (during the Bush administration) I asked him who would be in the number one position on his Who he would like to witness be impeached list . His answer “David Addington’
Quite the site. Thanks
Thanks
And they keep telling us “no one is above the law”..”no one is above the law”
Well you never hear Cheney, Addington, Yoo etc repeat that lie.
bmaz@90, re: your *four (pals)*; I wonder if the 4 are reviewing the Rehnquist personal biography article very recently published quietly.
The last decade of abuse has really ground the Guard down, but it started almost thirty years ago, with the Reagan administration. With the eager assistance of the Republican Congress, specifically Rep. Montgomery’s bill, they were able to legalize the misuse of the Guard by having them become fighters in the national security apparatus’ vast, sprawling counterinsurgency and “rollback” war in Central America.
Too many citizens of this pig-ignorant country actively avoided learning any lessons whatsoever from the U.S. aggression in Viet Nam and ultimately all of southeast Asia, and the high war criminals learned (from the defeat and the brief, Watergate-induced “Prague spring” of 1974-75) only to cover their tracks better.
Thank you, for catching that out, BSL.
If you will permit me to render it “down”?
Rotunda is saying simply that the moral rightness or wrongness of any action depends on its unique or “intrinsic” qualities, not on its consequence.
Of course, Rotunda, appears to separate his “deontological” view from his assessment of Yoo et al., but he really does not; he implies (whatever we may infer) that this is precisely such a circumstance … why else mention such a useful “ethical philosophy”? The good professor, clearly, has no need of impressing anyone with either the extent of his vocabulary or with his great and obvious erudition.
So, then, it may well be argued, as the final “justification”, that Yoo, Bybee and their apparently numerous assistants or helpers, are heroic figures, courageous beyond the norm and the essential stuff of true patriots. What “they” did was not very nice, it will be said, but “they” did it because “they” loved their country more than “they” feared the law. This will ignore obvious truth, but our nation is most accomplished in this particular regard.
There will be no discussion of the action which the “action” justified, after the fact and further encouraged, that being mere “consequence” and limited, officially, even as yet, to “a few bad apples”.
Thus “it”, this courageous, and needful, if ill-considered, act of Yoo and others, is moved beyond the purview of mere, temporal law, and becomes a higher thing, a thing of profound, if slightly tarnished, virtue.
What are the chances that such will not be the “final” verdict, the one desired by those who would determine and record the “Rich and Powerful People’s OFFICIAL History of the United States”, as well, obviously, by the people in control of the government itself, of BOTH political parties?
DW
Couple more questions crossed my mind –
Was Yoo connected to Kyndra like he was Ronald? Was she a source, too, but perhaps with less documentation?
Is Kyndra exposed and perhaps another key reason why there’s been a push for military commissions instead of civilian courts?
DW @ 114:
“What are the chances that such will not be the “final” verdict, the one desired by those who would determine and record the “Rich and Powerful People’s OFFICIAL History of the United States”, as well, obviously, by the people in control of the government itself, of BOTH political parties?”
That’s why we need Howard Zinn’s attitude in reminding people of the UNofficial history of the United States (http://www.amazon.com/Peoples-History-United-States-Present/dp/0060838655/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267327180&sr=1-1). In fact, there *must never be* an “Official” History of the U.S.
Bob in AZ
nell @113
thank you for that history.
i did not understand it went so far back.
the g. w. bush admin’s misuse and abuse of the national guard has always rankled.
if you want to invade and occupy a country, use the main battle forces you trained for war.
don’t leave those troops twiddling their thumbs in germany and korea and then “conscript” national guard forces and materiel to do your actual fighting and support.
doing so says to me that rumsfeld, et al, did not want to alienate the mainstream military by putting them in combat, except for “elite” troops,
and so pushed the national guard forward as a source of men/women and materiel that would not/could not “fight back” against dod orders.
i never could understand and never saw a sensible explanation for why the u.s. military was “stretched so thin” that it was necessary to use the national guard in iraq.
Rotunda’s approach is quite convenient, isn’t it? One basically has no responsibility for one’s actions. In sharpest contrast, Existentialism places the onus on us. We are responsible for our actions. Our actions define what we think is right or wrong and impact the world around us. We have enormous responsibility.
Bob and fatster;
Thank you fro replying.
I agree with both of you.
Completely.
As one ponders Rotunda’s words one does wonder what kind of Professor of Law would suggest that boundaries necessary to civilization itself, are not, in fact, boundaries. I should think that would require someone who is at a considerable remove from his fellow human beings quite as much as he is removed from his own humanity.
The parsing of words, the search for the gist of palaver, may well be the basic function of the law, apart from examining the “action” itself, far more than pondering the fact of consequence, even that not readily apparent, but surely some thought must be given to the message that such a “philosophy” sends.
It says, “The rule of law applies equally to all … except for some.”
It says, “Considering circumstance or state of mind may mitigate, but it does not excuse … except for some.”
It says, “Ignorance of the law is no excuse … except for some.”
What has the law become?
It becomes but a petty tyrant, whimsical in its application and amenable to the right kind of influence.
In a word, it becomes deferential,
And worthless.
To be despised.
In its august Majesty, the law will increasingly despise the poor and the powerless, until it is a wholly heartless and pitiless tyrant.
Still, the loudest cries will be, “Let us make an exception, in this case.”
This is the “reasoning”.
This is how it “begins” …
Shall we guess where it ends?
If one seeks the dictionary definition of “ethical”, then one finds that the definition refers to “ethics” and to “moral correctness” and “honor”.
Then it refers to “Ethical Medicine”, where it states, that such medicine ” … is not advertised to the general public, and is available, usually, only on a doctor’s prescription.”
All evidence suggests that we, or our body “politic”, have yet to find a Doctor of the Law who is willing to prescribe a dose of the truth, it being a most dangerous thing, possibly addictive, and with unimaginable side-effects.
Is there a such doctor (who must be well-versed in courage, as well) in the country?
DW
That certainly appears to be true. Either that or he is so incompetent that he should never have been appointed to the OLC. You can’t have it both ways but for some reason, that’s how our legal system likes things to be these days; conveniently negligent is a new defense for lawbreaking and educated amoral sociopaths.
Mary, I think you are really on to something here. Namely, what was the reason for the creation of this elaborate kabuki vis-a-vis the false-facts and the real facts. And why were those videos destroyed? And, if you look hard enough into that, I think you will find that it wasn’t just the field operatives whose butts were on the line. Much more likely it also involved the head honchos, just like in Watergate. That’s why this became so convoluted and why everyone is dancing around the issue of the legality of the >behavior< because it really was a coverup designed to draw attention away from the President, the Vice President, the Attorney General, and the White House Counsel (Gonzalez before he was AG) that was causing all this hemming and hawing. This certainly explains why Gonzalez was treated by the Senate with kids gloves during the time that he was swinging in the wind in Washington. No one, and I mean no one, wanted to find out exactly what had happened. It seems to me that it is a conspiracy encompassing not just the GOP but also, likely some folks on the other side of the aisle? Again, who voted for Mukasey's confirmation?
Had I read this first before I saw Mary’s post at 42, I’d have thought you nuts…but, yeah, it does seem to be smelling pretty bad in Washington these past eight years or so!
Great find. It looks like the most unethical guys in power were using this guy as their ethical guru!? Well, well…
Weird? Or just par for the course in our institutions of higher learning? Just because someone is educated and/or brilliant does not mean that they are not subject to many (all actually) of the foibles of the rest of us. In fact, if you really want to see where and how a society is headed, take a look at the educational institutions. In this case, I can tell you that Universities have become more conservative and less welcoming to the general public than they were 25 years ago, including publicly funded universities. It is not a good sign.
Go back and look at Chief Justice Roberts confirmation hearing in the Senate. At one point he was asked a question about the Federalist Society and he blanched. It’s definitely the organization to keep after.
Frankly, I was surprised when the SJC didn’t follow up on that aspect, especially after it came to light that members of the Federalist Society were given backdoor access to DOJ appointees and friendlies via office phone numbers, etc. As some of you may recall, this was one of the things that was going on during the Bushies attempt to politicize DOJ. In fact, when it was discovered that there were Federalist Society websites that listed these numbers, numbers not available to the general public for contacting personnel at DOJ, these sights were quickly taken down.
But then, the criminal conspiracy that is the GOP and the Federalist Society are unlikely, given the glad handing Congressional and Executive branch leadership, to be investigated and prosecuted. Too bad because in a few years, without this investigation and prosecution, the GOP and Federalist Societies, more conservative than ever, will be back to do even greater damage to the Constitution and our Bill of Rights.
Love ya, man!
EPU’d, but it’s interesting to add in that, philosophy aside, lawyers are trained to understand that for purposes of the law, people are deemed to intend the reasonable and foreseeable (sometimes called things like natural and probable) consequences of their action, so you are not allowed the luxury of severing an action’s “intrinsic” qualities from its legal consequences. The element of “law” that allows some balancing is when you get to defenses that are basically grounded in equity – affirmative defenses like self defense and the VERY QUESTIONABLE defense of necessity. Inherent in those defenses, though, is the admission that the underlying actions didn’t have an instrinsic “righteousness” but rather was a violation of law and it is actually an examination of consequences (weighing the consequences of not undertaking the illegal act with the consequences of undertaking the illegal act) as opposed to intrinsic worth of the actions that support the defense.
It’s always about the consequences.
This is where I have never understood the bit about the actors being in good faith because they “had no intent” to torture. bullshit; absent a showing of some action at a distance that caused them to unconsciously, or against their will, to perform the acts, the acts were done intentionally. In fact the entire point of the acts was to cause unconscionable pain, emotional distress, suffering, humiliation etc. to force the subjects to talk. What could be more intentional than that?
Oh, they fully intended the consequences all right. They don’t want their actions to be defined as “torture”, but as “enhanced interrogation” because they want to avoid responsibility for their actions and they also hope to avoid prosecution under the law for those actions.
Way late to the party (spent Saturday watching Hilo Bay piston up and down on Skype), but FWIW here’s a different read on Rotunda.
He says the memos couldn’t have been comfort memos, because they make it clear that all the torture stuff is a grey area. I smell a rat and misdirection there. What if the purpose of the memos was different and less ambitious than that, i.e. merely to move the Overton window on torture from the previous strictly-forbidden status to a grey-area, perhaps-permissible-under-certain-circumstances status? That would be consistent with the reality that that’s as much as they could have ever achieved — no true ‘comfort memo’ per se on torture could ever have been possible. But at the time, a grey area might well have been thought to be enough to get ‘er done and get away with it, especially given the massive political hirings into career positions at DoJ where they can influence, prevent, corrupt, or fix both investigations and prosecutions. And as a matter of fact, as we have sadly seen, they are at least so far getting away with it.
That would make the Rotunda statements a fairly desperate attempt to deflect criticism of Margolis’ decision to do nothing. Why would such a significant shadowy figure be surfacing now to chip in? Is that side running in all-hand-on-deck? Is he helping filling in for the ill Papa Dick? Is there now some real chance of the tide turning, investigations and prosecution wise? (Cue bmaz smackdown in 3, 2, 1…)
Way way epu’d, but this is where Yoo really goes off the rails with his “specific intent” *analysis* that he provided, after first giving Rizzo a heads upon how to set up the analysis.
He says for torture, you need not *just* the intent of an intentional act, but the “specific intent” that the act be intended to be “torture.” So with his claim that torture, which does pretty much operate in the jus cogens arena as he overlooks, is not just an intent crime, but a specific intent crime (that needed the intent to not just commit assault or create pain and suffering, but the intent to create the soon-to-be-OLC defined degree of pain and suffering), he sends this letter on July 13, 2002 to Rizzo (as per Marcy’s many references, but I only got around to reading the letter with her recent Legal Principles post).
So Yoo, who is working on the OLC torture memo for Rizzo, writes to Rizzo and says – Hey y’all, you know how you were asking me about what it takes to have the crime of torture, well guess what! You have to have this, like, specific intent to torture and you know how you can claim you didn’t have that specific intent?? You can claim you acted in “good faith” (that you were ONLY intending to cause pain and suffering, but not like ya know, “severe” pain and suffering) “Specific intent can be negated by a showing of good faith.”
And guess what y’all, here’s how you can claim you had good faith (in case you need to be, like, ya know, coached on it since you’re going to be sending me the factual boundaries for my memo and all). “Thus, if an individual undertook any of the predicate acts for severe mental pain and suffering, but did so in the good faith belief that those act would not cause the prisoner prolonged mental harm, he would not have acted with the specific intent necessary to establish torture. If, for example, efforts were made to determine what long-term impact, if any, specific conduct would have and it was learned that the conduct would not result in prolonged mental harm, any actions taken in reliance on that advice would have been undertaken in good faith” (that you were *only* causing pain and suffering and not the *severe* pain and suffering needed for torture). He says due diligence for reliance would be plentyfinesatisfied by “surveying professional literature, consulting with experts, or evidence gained from past experiences (where you just went ahead and tortured and decided that in your opinion, it wasn’t all that severe).
You might notice he never opts in for “reasonable” reliance as necessary to establish good faith. ;)
So he tells Rizzo – if you give me a fact pattern where you can tell me that there is no “severe” mental pain and suffering, then I’ve consulted an expert or someone with experience gained from prior experience and I’m in the good faith clear on conspiracy for giving you the OK to go ahead. THEN, if you rely on MY expert opinion in the OLC memo, your ok on torure too.
Kewl, huh bro?
It
BTW – notice what his advice on specific intent does to his necessity affirmative defense claim.
You need to be out surveying literature, or maybe having docs and psychs right at hand as experts on “severity” of pain and suffering for it not to be torture, and yet somehow all that happened in the ticking time bomb seconds – that you were able to have experts on hand and survey professional literature while the time bomb ticked – wow, they left those parts out of 24 – Bauer speed reading through literature between torture activities.