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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Affordable&#8221; Health Care</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/27/affordable-health-care/</link>
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		<title>By: raven333</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/27/affordable-health-care/#comment-208532</link>
		<dc:creator>raven333</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:39:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=7174#comment-208532</guid>
		<description>By the way, if these numbers are accurate, I figure the mandates will stomp any economic recovery flat in 2014.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, if these numbers are accurate, I figure the mandates will stomp any economic recovery flat in 2014.</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/27/affordable-health-care/#comment-208515</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 17:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=7174#comment-208515</guid>
		<description>You are living in some kind of dreamland.  Politically, I am on your side, ideologically too; and my first reaction to your mandated austerity for the sake of buying into this baloney is to tell you to go straight to where the sun doesn&#039;t shine much.  And, again, I am generally on your side of the political calculation and, under different circumstances, we would probably be friends.  I like and appreciate your attitude and ethos, but it has little, if any, applicability to where and how I live.  I would not mandate my lifestyle on you, and I sure as hell do not want either you or Obama to impose yours on me. That is the endemic problem with this catastrophe of a HC bill; it will not only destroy the Democratic party from without, but from within as well.  It is already well on its way, and there are a lot of us that will not go quietly into the night to support Obama&#039;s shitty folly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are living in some kind of dreamland.  Politically, I am on your side, ideologically too; and my first reaction to your mandated austerity for the sake of buying into this baloney is to tell you to go straight to where the sun doesn&#8217;t shine much.  And, again, I am generally on your side of the political calculation and, under different circumstances, we would probably be friends.  I like and appreciate your attitude and ethos, but it has little, if any, applicability to where and how I live.  I would not mandate my lifestyle on you, and I sure as hell do not want either you or Obama to impose yours on me. That is the endemic problem with this catastrophe of a HC bill; it will not only destroy the Democratic party from without, but from within as well.  It is already well on its way, and there are a lot of us that will not go quietly into the night to support Obama&#8217;s shitty folly.</p>
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		<title>By: Mainer</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/27/affordable-health-care/#comment-208510</link>
		<dc:creator>Mainer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 16:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=7174#comment-208510</guid>
		<description>By the way, I think the bill is far from perfect. I think we should have single-payer, if not that, a strong public option and, if not that, better subsidies and more people in Medicare and Medicaid.

But I also think this is a big step forward that can be built upon.  In the next election, work for candidates who want to increase the subsidies not to drop them altogether. And keep working for broader reforms.  This is not the end point, but it&#039;s a big, big step in American politics and policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, I think the bill is far from perfect. I think we should have single-payer, if not that, a strong public option and, if not that, better subsidies and more people in Medicare and Medicaid.</p>
<p>But I also think this is a big step forward that can be built upon.  In the next election, work for candidates who want to increase the subsidies not to drop them altogether. And keep working for broader reforms.  This is not the end point, but it&#8217;s a big, big step in American politics and policy.</p>
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		<title>By: Mainer</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/27/affordable-health-care/#comment-208506</link>
		<dc:creator>Mainer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 16:52:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=7174#comment-208506</guid>
		<description>277: Who is Ed Begley? I could google it, I suppose, but what does he have to do with, well, &lt;em&gt;anything&lt;/em&gt;?

278: Yes, I live in Maine. But I wasn&#039;t born here and I&#039;ve lived in a number of states. Part of the reason why I&#039;m here is that you can have a great lifestyle without the high costs.  So I guess others haven&#039;t made my choices. But they can make choices that will give them good lifestyles without being too squeezed.  I am lifelong progressive/leftie but I also believe in people being empowered/responsible when it comes to life choices.

274: What happened to your neighbor and her family will not happen under the hcr bill, as there are lifetime and annual caps. That is one of the best things about it, indeed maybe the best, although I am also thrilled with the provision about keeping kids&#039; on parents insurance into their 20s and, for others, the new federal requirements about covering people under Medicaid.  The latter replaces some extremely low state income thresholds for Medicaid.  As Waldman writes in the American Prospect, &quot;the biggest winners from the expansion will be poor people represented by Republicans.&quot; From: http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article=ten_things_to_watch_in_the_health_care_reform_conference</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>277: Who is Ed Begley? I could google it, I suppose, but what does he have to do with, well, <em>anything</em>?</p>
<p>278: Yes, I live in Maine. But I wasn&#8217;t born here and I&#8217;ve lived in a number of states. Part of the reason why I&#8217;m here is that you can have a great lifestyle without the high costs.  So I guess others haven&#8217;t made my choices. But they can make choices that will give them good lifestyles without being too squeezed.  I am lifelong progressive/leftie but I also believe in people being empowered/responsible when it comes to life choices.</p>
<p>274: What happened to your neighbor and her family will not happen under the hcr bill, as there are lifetime and annual caps. That is one of the best things about it, indeed maybe the best, although I am also thrilled with the provision about keeping kids&#8217; on parents insurance into their 20s and, for others, the new federal requirements about covering people under Medicaid.  The latter replaces some extremely low state income thresholds for Medicaid.  As Waldman writes in the American Prospect, &#8220;the biggest winners from the expansion will be poor people represented by Republicans.&#8221; From: <a href="http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article=ten_things_to_watch_in_the_health_care_reform_conference" rel="nofollow">http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article=ten_things_to_watch_in_the_health_care_reform_conference</a></p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/27/affordable-health-care/#comment-208489</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=7174#comment-208489</guid>
		<description>A couple of other points.  You live in Maine; it is nothing like the west or urban areas; nothing.  Secondly, again, most people do not necessarily choose where they live and it is presumptuous to claim they do.  Many people live where their roots are and jobs are, and it is not necessarily by choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple of other points.  You live in Maine; it is nothing like the west or urban areas; nothing.  Secondly, again, most people do not necessarily choose where they live and it is presumptuous to claim they do.  Many people live where their roots are and jobs are, and it is not necessarily by choice.</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/27/affordable-health-care/#comment-208488</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=7174#comment-208488</guid>
		<description>Honestly, not everybody wants to live like Ed Begley.  If you do, great.  I don&#039;t, and I darn sure do not need people telling me how I should live.  That is just in general, and to telling people that they have to live like hunter gatherers in order to buy crappy insurance they cannot afford to use once they have got it is plain silly.  

All the traits and frugality you describe are honorable, worthy and very commendable.  It would be a good thing if more people adopted some or all of them.  An average family doing everything you describe still, in many cases, as the post above demonstrates, may not be able to afford to use the insurance that Barack Obama, Ben Nelson and Harry Reid are cramming down their throats.  That is a the point and, quite frankly, your comment pretty much reinforces that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Honestly, not everybody wants to live like Ed Begley.  If you do, great.  I don&#8217;t, and I darn sure do not need people telling me how I should live.  That is just in general, and to telling people that they have to live like hunter gatherers in order to buy crappy insurance they cannot afford to use once they have got it is plain silly.  </p>
<p>All the traits and frugality you describe are honorable, worthy and very commendable.  It would be a good thing if more people adopted some or all of them.  An average family doing everything you describe still, in many cases, as the post above demonstrates, may not be able to afford to use the insurance that Barack Obama, Ben Nelson and Harry Reid are cramming down their throats.  That is a the point and, quite frankly, your comment pretty much reinforces that.</p>
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		<title>By: archiebird</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/27/affordable-health-care/#comment-208486</link>
		<dc:creator>archiebird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 13:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=7174#comment-208486</guid>
		<description>Maybe our current government should look at Marcy&#039;s numbers to get a clue!!  I doubt that, that would get Obama off the golf course though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe our current government should look at Marcy&#8217;s numbers to get a clue!!  I doubt that, that would get Obama off the golf course though.</p>
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		<title>By: wavpeac</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/27/affordable-health-care/#comment-208485</link>
		<dc:creator>wavpeac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 13:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=7174#comment-208485</guid>
		<description>That last response was in reply to Mainer at 268.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That last response was in reply to Mainer at 268.</p>
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		<title>By: wavpeac</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/27/affordable-health-care/#comment-208484</link>
		<dc:creator>wavpeac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 13:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=7174#comment-208484</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s my problem with what you are saying. Bottom line is that it varies. It&#039;s not consistent across the board. Some folks will manage and some will not. That&#039;s the idea of taking a cross section like this and looking at it. Why do people feel the need to be so black and white. Your situation is yours...but guess what?? There are other folks out there with different situations, the bottom line being that for many this bill is NOT affordable. That&#039;s all...that&#039;s the point. Not it&#039;s affordable for some...or how &quot;special&quot; you are because you survived a hard time. Geesh. 

One last word about luekemia. My beloved neighbor died two years ago from luekemia. She was the mother of 3 boys and married to a blue collar contractor. She had health insurance from &quot;selling steaks at Omaha Steaks&quot;. When she died the family was left hundreds of thousands in debt trying to save her life. She had 2 bone marrow transplants. They lost her, her income, her insurance...and today are still paying on the debt. WE have to change the health insurance industry..and this bill does nothing to solve this problem. You can take all your money and buy insurance, but that insurance does not &quot;insure&quot; you from financial ruin. It&#039;s a catch 22, the way it stands today. If I know that I have less than 3% of my income left over...I can save it all up in a savings account but it won&#039;t cover my costs if one of my kids breaks a bone and needs surgery to repair it. (while they participate in sports so they don&#039;t become obese or end up drug addicts). I won&#039;t have enough left over to pay off the 20% or more in hospital bills. And...If I have to pay co pays to get routine testing done..I am not going, at all, because I know I can&#039;t afford it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s my problem with what you are saying. Bottom line is that it varies. It&#8217;s not consistent across the board. Some folks will manage and some will not. That&#8217;s the idea of taking a cross section like this and looking at it. Why do people feel the need to be so black and white. Your situation is yours&#8230;but guess what?? There are other folks out there with different situations, the bottom line being that for many this bill is NOT affordable. That&#8217;s all&#8230;that&#8217;s the point. Not it&#8217;s affordable for some&#8230;or how &#8220;special&#8221; you are because you survived a hard time. Geesh. </p>
<p>One last word about luekemia. My beloved neighbor died two years ago from luekemia. She was the mother of 3 boys and married to a blue collar contractor. She had health insurance from &#8220;selling steaks at Omaha Steaks&#8221;. When she died the family was left hundreds of thousands in debt trying to save her life. She had 2 bone marrow transplants. They lost her, her income, her insurance&#8230;and today are still paying on the debt. WE have to change the health insurance industry..and this bill does nothing to solve this problem. You can take all your money and buy insurance, but that insurance does not &#8220;insure&#8221; you from financial ruin. It&#8217;s a catch 22, the way it stands today. If I know that I have less than 3% of my income left over&#8230;I can save it all up in a savings account but it won&#8217;t cover my costs if one of my kids breaks a bone and needs surgery to repair it. (while they participate in sports so they don&#8217;t become obese or end up drug addicts). I won&#8217;t have enough left over to pay off the 20% or more in hospital bills. And&#8230;If I have to pay co pays to get routine testing done..I am not going, at all, because I know I can&#8217;t afford it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mainer</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/27/affordable-health-care/#comment-208483</link>
		<dc:creator>Mainer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:52:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=7174#comment-208483</guid>
		<description>&quot;Other people live in places where prices are much different, and not all have the skills to remodel on their own or on the cheap.&quot;

People choose where to live.
They choose what place to live in.
And they choose whether to develop certain skills, whether to further their income or improve their homes.

When we bought our house, our family income was $40,000 a year with one kid in childcare.  We research vehicles and buy ones that are highly reliable with relatively good mileage.  At times, big expenses like car repairs have given us credit card balances, but we are frugal on clothes, have an old tv and few electronics (no wii or other game systems), and almost always prepare food at home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Other people live in places where prices are much different, and not all have the skills to remodel on their own or on the cheap.&#8221;</p>
<p>People choose where to live.<br />
They choose what place to live in.<br />
And they choose whether to develop certain skills, whether to further their income or improve their homes.</p>
<p>When we bought our house, our family income was $40,000 a year with one kid in childcare.  We research vehicles and buy ones that are highly reliable with relatively good mileage.  At times, big expenses like car repairs have given us credit card balances, but we are frugal on clothes, have an old tv and few electronics (no wii or other game systems), and almost always prepare food at home.</p>
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