<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: How Dick Cheney Cowed Obama</title>
	<atom:link href="http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/11/21/how-dick-cheney-cowed-obama/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/11/21/how-dick-cheney-cowed-obama/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:48:32 -0500</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: shekissesfrogs</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/11/21/how-dick-cheney-cowed-obama/#comment-201281</link>
		<dc:creator>shekissesfrogs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 01:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=6310#comment-201281</guid>
		<description>The car bombs that are placed in shopping areas and no one takes responsibility for them are suspected as false flags. There are others that are decidedly different, aimed at military and state targets where the Taliban does take responsibility. Fake Taliban have been killed in these explosions or in fighting that turn out to be Gurkas in costume. Another point that stands out to the Pakistanis is that the media is pushing a concept of division and nationalism that is foreign to them, and it&#039;s a blatant signal to them that the pentagon has control of their media. Far fetched? 
If you are familiar with the &quot;strategy of tension&quot; (see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&amp;rls=en&amp;q=stratedy+of+tension+natos+armies+P2&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Operation Gladio&lt;/a&gt;), terror is used to get the population to fall in line and approve of a security state or increased military presence. I haven&#039;t read shock doctrine but is the same principle, I believe. Maybe it is you that should stretch your imagination to meet the possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The car bombs that are placed in shopping areas and no one takes responsibility for them are suspected as false flags. There are others that are decidedly different, aimed at military and state targets where the Taliban does take responsibility. Fake Taliban have been killed in these explosions or in fighting that turn out to be Gurkas in costume. Another point that stands out to the Pakistanis is that the media is pushing a concept of division and nationalism that is foreign to them, and it&#8217;s a blatant signal to them that the pentagon has control of their media. Far fetched?<br />
If you are familiar with the &#8220;strategy of tension&#8221; (see <a href="http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&amp;rls=en&amp;q=stratedy+of+tension+natos+armies+P2" rel="nofollow">Operation Gladio</a>), terror is used to get the population to fall in line and approve of a security state or increased military presence. I haven&#8217;t read shock doctrine but is the same principle, I believe. Maybe it is you that should stretch your imagination to meet the possible.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeff Kaye</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/11/21/how-dick-cheney-cowed-obama/#comment-201275</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Kaye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:43:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=6310#comment-201275</guid>
		<description>All one has to consider are the Abu Ghraib photos. Prior to their release, the torture story could barely get traction in this country. After their release, the torture machinery itself had to be slowed, many &quot;investigations&quot; were conducted. What would the torture issue have looked like if the Abu Ghraib photos were never released?

I agree that there is no instantaneous connection that would make release of the abuse photos bring about positive change. But then, you seem to believe that Obama&#039;s executive orders have pretty much wrapped up the torture issue. I disagree, and if you have read my articles on the 2006 Army Field Manual and interrogation then you&#039;ll understand much of why I must disagree with you on this point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All one has to consider are the Abu Ghraib photos. Prior to their release, the torture story could barely get traction in this country. After their release, the torture machinery itself had to be slowed, many &#8220;investigations&#8221; were conducted. What would the torture issue have looked like if the Abu Ghraib photos were never released?</p>
<p>I agree that there is no instantaneous connection that would make release of the abuse photos bring about positive change. But then, you seem to believe that Obama&#8217;s executive orders have pretty much wrapped up the torture issue. I disagree, and if you have read my articles on the 2006 Army Field Manual and interrogation then you&#8217;ll understand much of why I must disagree with you on this point.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/11/21/how-dick-cheney-cowed-obama/#comment-201121</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 18:42:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=6310#comment-201121</guid>
		<description>The pictures are powerful symbols that form, nurture and drive the other factors that actually do move the policy mountain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The pictures are powerful symbols that form, nurture and drive the other factors that actually do move the policy mountain.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sara</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/11/21/how-dick-cheney-cowed-obama/#comment-201117</link>
		<dc:creator>Sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 18:35:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=6310#comment-201117</guid>
		<description>&quot;So, the power of pictures is paramount. Oh yes.&quot;

But the problem is not one seems to be able to cite a specific historical example in which pictures of torture, or some other form of evil doing, actually moved the policy mountain.  What I am questioning is the intellectual dependence on this belief without an evidence bank.  I too do not believe torture should be in the tool bag of national policy or practice, but I am trying to suggest that ending that, making sure it will not happen again, has to stand on a more solid footing than just having access to pictures of consequences to look at and study.  

As to the constant loop of planes flying into buildings.  I think FDR got it right on that one if you remember the end clause in his famous 1933 pronouncement about Fear.  He said that creating or allowing Fear to dominate led to paralysis that made it difficult if not impossible to commit to action that might relieve the conditions highlighted by fear.  

In no uncertain terms, I would suggest Bush/Cheney et. al., ran with the 9/11 business, including looping the video of the attack on the WTC,  simply because it induced fear leading to paralysis -- and their interests were served by this in multiple ways.  They wanted Permanent and unobstructed Power, and it is a little easier to accomplish that if many of your likely critics are paralized with fear. 

But this is not at all the same as mass viewing of pictures of US Authorized torture.  Those who argue for this are, in my mind, depending on people looking at the pictures, being revolted by the pictures, and then demanding effective political action to end whatever policy allowed it.  I think this is a highly unreliable assumption if your goal is to end any authority or permission to allow torture.  

I would suggest that at this point, without benefit of any pictures, Obama has pretty much made himself hostage to his anti-Torture Executive Orders.  If in fact it can be shown that someone in the chain of command either tortures, or allows torture, the buck for that lands on Obama&#039;s desk.  I am not talking about things that occurred under Bush/Cheney, but things that could happen since Obama issued orders.  While it is not impossible that some rogue piece of the Military and Security Industrial Complex may still house some covert torturers, where Obama has put himself pretty much guarentees that the old policy is offically dead, and that any new torture would be harshly prosecuted, and if it happens, it will damage the President.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So, the power of pictures is paramount. Oh yes.&#8221;</p>
<p>But the problem is not one seems to be able to cite a specific historical example in which pictures of torture, or some other form of evil doing, actually moved the policy mountain.  What I am questioning is the intellectual dependence on this belief without an evidence bank.  I too do not believe torture should be in the tool bag of national policy or practice, but I am trying to suggest that ending that, making sure it will not happen again, has to stand on a more solid footing than just having access to pictures of consequences to look at and study.  </p>
<p>As to the constant loop of planes flying into buildings.  I think FDR got it right on that one if you remember the end clause in his famous 1933 pronouncement about Fear.  He said that creating or allowing Fear to dominate led to paralysis that made it difficult if not impossible to commit to action that might relieve the conditions highlighted by fear.  </p>
<p>In no uncertain terms, I would suggest Bush/Cheney et. al., ran with the 9/11 business, including looping the video of the attack on the WTC,  simply because it induced fear leading to paralysis &#8212; and their interests were served by this in multiple ways.  They wanted Permanent and unobstructed Power, and it is a little easier to accomplish that if many of your likely critics are paralized with fear. </p>
<p>But this is not at all the same as mass viewing of pictures of US Authorized torture.  Those who argue for this are, in my mind, depending on people looking at the pictures, being revolted by the pictures, and then demanding effective political action to end whatever policy allowed it.  I think this is a highly unreliable assumption if your goal is to end any authority or permission to allow torture.  </p>
<p>I would suggest that at this point, without benefit of any pictures, Obama has pretty much made himself hostage to his anti-Torture Executive Orders.  If in fact it can be shown that someone in the chain of command either tortures, or allows torture, the buck for that lands on Obama&#8217;s desk.  I am not talking about things that occurred under Bush/Cheney, but things that could happen since Obama issued orders.  While it is not impossible that some rogue piece of the Military and Security Industrial Complex may still house some covert torturers, where Obama has put himself pretty much guarentees that the old policy is offically dead, and that any new torture would be harshly prosecuted, and if it happens, it will damage the President.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeff Kaye</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/11/21/how-dick-cheney-cowed-obama/#comment-201024</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Kaye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 04:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=6310#comment-201024</guid>
		<description>Whatever the difficulties involved, one does not have to change the constitutional system and attitudes towards international law to deal with them. The amount of destruction and damage done by those who seek to restore a so-called Caliphate, by &quot;non-state actors&quot;, is minuscule compared to the damage done by the various military adventures of the United States in my own adult lifetime. However, I do not advocate bending the laws and traditions of the United States to deal with the latter either, and propose addressing it using the rights and laws of the United States to clean up this country.

The &quot;GWOT&quot; was and is played up because the military, intelligence, and ancillary national security and industrial-technical agencies and industries needed something to replace the gravy train that had been the Cold War. The threats of Al Qaeda are a pale reflection of the ICBMs the Kremlin aimed at the U.S. &quot;homeland&quot;. But the ideologues who run this country are insistent that the collective PTSD that watching planeloads of helpless human beings smashed into buildings in a fiery airliner gotterdammerung engendered in the average American, who viewed (and still view) this nightmarish disastrous crime over and over on television and YouTube, that this collective PTSD (and who does not freeze inside when they see a plane fly low over a city skyline) is used to manipulate fear and make Americans dependent and docile upon their leaders.

That&#039;s what&#039;s happened, and don&#039;t think they aren&#039;t aware of the power of such things. They don&#039;t spend millions on psywar for nothing.

So, the power of pictures is paramount. Oh yes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whatever the difficulties involved, one does not have to change the constitutional system and attitudes towards international law to deal with them. The amount of destruction and damage done by those who seek to restore a so-called Caliphate, by &#8220;non-state actors&#8221;, is minuscule compared to the damage done by the various military adventures of the United States in my own adult lifetime. However, I do not advocate bending the laws and traditions of the United States to deal with the latter either, and propose addressing it using the rights and laws of the United States to clean up this country.</p>
<p>The &#8220;GWOT&#8221; was and is played up because the military, intelligence, and ancillary national security and industrial-technical agencies and industries needed something to replace the gravy train that had been the Cold War. The threats of Al Qaeda are a pale reflection of the ICBMs the Kremlin aimed at the U.S. &#8220;homeland&#8221;. But the ideologues who run this country are insistent that the collective PTSD that watching planeloads of helpless human beings smashed into buildings in a fiery airliner gotterdammerung engendered in the average American, who viewed (and still view) this nightmarish disastrous crime over and over on television and YouTube, that this collective PTSD (and who does not freeze inside when they see a plane fly low over a city skyline) is used to manipulate fear and make Americans dependent and docile upon their leaders.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what&#8217;s happened, and don&#8217;t think they aren&#8217;t aware of the power of such things. They don&#8217;t spend millions on psywar for nothing.</p>
<p>So, the power of pictures is paramount. Oh yes.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: orionATL</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/11/21/how-dick-cheney-cowed-obama/#comment-201016</link>
		<dc:creator>orionATL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 04:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=6310#comment-201016</guid>
		<description>orion@95

obama is david axelrod&#039;s creature,

his pygmalion.

americans bought a pygmalion in a poke

when they supported and voted for obama.

comprehension of this sad fact has been slow to dawn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>orion@95</p>
<p>obama is david axelrod&#8217;s creature,</p>
<p>his pygmalion.</p>
<p>americans bought a pygmalion in a poke</p>
<p>when they supported and voted for obama.</p>
<p>comprehension of this sad fact has been slow to dawn.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: orionATL</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/11/21/how-dick-cheney-cowed-obama/#comment-201014</link>
		<dc:creator>orionATL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 04:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=6310#comment-201014</guid>
		<description>if you want to understand the gyrations of the obama presidency you need to understand this:


from april, 2007 nytimes -http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0CE6DA1230F932A35757C0A9619C8B63&amp;sec=&amp;spon=&amp;pagewanted=4

pay close attention to the last paragraph of the quote. 


&quot;Obama&#039;s Narrator 
  
BEN WALLACE-WELLS
 
Published: April 1, 2007

Photos: Biographer: David Axelrod with Barack Obama in the senator&#039;s Capitol Hill office. (Photograph by Jamie Rose); Street Fighter: To find out what voters are thinking, Axelrod heads to the political wards of Chicago. (Photograph By Paul D&#039;amato For The New York Times) 


Axelrod says that his model for the Obama campaign came last year when Deval Patrick ran for governor of Massachusetts. There are many ways in which Patrick&#039;s run and Obama&#039;s are similar: the optimism, the constant presence of the candidate&#039;s biography, the combination of a crusading message of reform with the candidate&#039;s natural pragmatism, the insistence that normal political categories did not apply, even the same, unofficial slogan, shouted from the crowds -- &#039;&#039;Yes. We. Can!&#039;&#039; But most essential is the way in which both of these campaigns came to use the symbolism that accompanies their candidates&#039; race, not by apologizing for it or ignoring it but by embracing the constant attention paid to the historic nature of the candidacy itself. The Democratic media consultant David Eichenbaum, whose candidate, Chris Gabrieli, lost to Patrick and Axelrod in Massachusetts, told me: &#039;&#039;What they were able to do in the Patrick campaign was similar to what they&#039;ve been able to do with Obama. The campaign managed to energize the grass roots, but there was a sense of idealism and hope and being able to break that historic barrier that was very unifying and reached out beyond liberals or the base. It became a movement that took on a life of its own.&#039;&#039; 

At the beginning of January, on a sunny day in the middle of the Northeast&#039;s strange extended warm spell, Axelrod traveled to Boston for Patrick&#039;s inaugural. Recounting it for me afterward, he said, &#039;&#039;I really thought a lot about this Obama thing, and I thought, You know, these are really the moments you work for, and I thought, how amazing would it be to be not at the Massachusetts Statehouse but at the U.S. Capitol for that.&#039;&#039; 

III. ...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if you want to understand the gyrations of the obama presidency you need to understand this:</p>
<p>from april, 2007 nytimes -http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0CE6DA1230F932A35757C0A9619C8B63&amp;sec=&amp;spon=&amp;pagewanted=4</p>
<p>pay close attention to the last paragraph of the quote. </p>
<p>&#8220;Obama&#8217;s Narrator </p>
<p>BEN WALLACE-WELLS</p>
<p>Published: April 1, 2007</p>
<p>Photos: Biographer: David Axelrod with Barack Obama in the senator&#8217;s Capitol Hill office. (Photograph by Jamie Rose); Street Fighter: To find out what voters are thinking, Axelrod heads to the political wards of Chicago. (Photograph By Paul D&#8217;amato For The New York Times) </p>
<p>Axelrod says that his model for the Obama campaign came last year when Deval Patrick ran for governor of Massachusetts. There are many ways in which Patrick&#8217;s run and Obama&#8217;s are similar: the optimism, the constant presence of the candidate&#8217;s biography, the combination of a crusading message of reform with the candidate&#8217;s natural pragmatism, the insistence that normal political categories did not apply, even the same, unofficial slogan, shouted from the crowds &#8212; &#8221;Yes. We. Can!&#8221; But most essential is the way in which both of these campaigns came to use the symbolism that accompanies their candidates&#8217; race, not by apologizing for it or ignoring it but by embracing the constant attention paid to the historic nature of the candidacy itself. The Democratic media consultant David Eichenbaum, whose candidate, Chris Gabrieli, lost to Patrick and Axelrod in Massachusetts, told me: &#8221;What they were able to do in the Patrick campaign was similar to what they&#8217;ve been able to do with Obama. The campaign managed to energize the grass roots, but there was a sense of idealism and hope and being able to break that historic barrier that was very unifying and reached out beyond liberals or the base. It became a movement that took on a life of its own.&#8221; </p>
<p>At the beginning of January, on a sunny day in the middle of the Northeast&#8217;s strange extended warm spell, Axelrod traveled to Boston for Patrick&#8217;s inaugural. Recounting it for me afterward, he said, &#8221;I really thought a lot about this Obama thing, and I thought, You know, these are really the moments you work for, and I thought, how amazing would it be to be not at the Massachusetts Statehouse but at the U.S. Capitol for that.&#8221; </p>
<p>III. &#8230;&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/11/21/how-dick-cheney-cowed-obama/#comment-201002</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 03:45:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=6310#comment-201002</guid>
		<description>No, they are both sides of the same GregCraig coin.  Confucius say people with two first names often have two faces!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, they are both sides of the same GregCraig coin.  Confucius say people with two first names often have two faces!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bobschacht</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/11/21/how-dick-cheney-cowed-obama/#comment-200999</link>
		<dc:creator>bobschacht</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 03:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=6310#comment-200999</guid>
		<description>The Greg Craig thing has me puzzled. For the first six months of the Obama administration, progressives looked with suspicion on Mr. Craig, warily referring to his ties with the likes of Karl Rove(?) and other Republicans as evidence of his likely perfidy. Now, it seems like Craig was the one fighting for the Progressive cause all along. Were we wrong about him before, or is the hype wrong about him now?

Bob in AZ</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Greg Craig thing has me puzzled. For the first six months of the Obama administration, progressives looked with suspicion on Mr. Craig, warily referring to his ties with the likes of Karl Rove(?) and other Republicans as evidence of his likely perfidy. Now, it seems like Craig was the one fighting for the Progressive cause all along. Were we wrong about him before, or is the hype wrong about him now?</p>
<p>Bob in AZ</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/11/21/how-dick-cheney-cowed-obama/#comment-200998</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 03:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=6310#comment-200998</guid>
		<description>Possible, but unlikely I think.  And yes the Lieberman BS amended FOIA to create an exception.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Possible, but unlikely I think.  And yes the Lieberman BS amended FOIA to create an exception.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Dynamic page generated in 0.394 seconds. -->
<!-- Cached page generated by WP-Super-Cache on 2012-02-17 09:52:52 -->

