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	<title>Comments on: Little Legal Recourse For Artists&#8217; Rage Against Musical Torture</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/22/little-legal-recourse-for-artists-rage-against-musical-torture/</link>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/22/little-legal-recourse-for-artists-rage-against-musical-torture/#comment-195613</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 23:42:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5278#comment-195613</guid>
		<description>No, the FOIA stands on its own merits irrespective of ability to sue.  Not to say they will not refuse substantial production on some trumped up BS of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, the FOIA stands on its own merits irrespective of ability to sue.  Not to say they will not refuse substantial production on some trumped up BS of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Hmmm</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/22/little-legal-recourse-for-artists-rage-against-musical-torture/#comment-195610</link>
		<dc:creator>Hmmm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 23:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5278#comment-195610</guid>
		<description>I may be mis-remembering, but I think the standard there is along the lines of whether this unlicensed use of the music is both (a) one of the several enumerated rights under 17 USC,  and (b) a use for which music is customarily licensed.  Since a private performance is not an enumerated right, and I wouldn&#039;t be surprised if an argument that a non-public military use is not a customarily licensed use prevailed, they may not have any leg on which to stand.  But again, mainly, since this was/is not a place under US jurisdiction, I don&#039;t think it&#039;d ever get to that question.  Interesting though it is.

So is the current theory here that since there is no jurisdiction and therefore no possible cause of action, USG is free to turn down the FOIA request?  Or do they still have to cough up the playlists anyway?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may be mis-remembering, but I think the standard there is along the lines of whether this unlicensed use of the music is both (a) one of the several enumerated rights under 17 USC,  and (b) a use for which music is customarily licensed.  Since a private performance is not an enumerated right, and I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if an argument that a non-public military use is not a customarily licensed use prevailed, they may not have any leg on which to stand.  But again, mainly, since this was/is not a place under US jurisdiction, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;d ever get to that question.  Interesting though it is.</p>
<p>So is the current theory here that since there is no jurisdiction and therefore no possible cause of action, USG is free to turn down the FOIA request?  Or do they still have to cough up the playlists anyway?</p>
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		<title>By: bzick</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/22/little-legal-recourse-for-artists-rage-against-musical-torture/#comment-195600</link>
		<dc:creator>bzick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 20:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5278#comment-195600</guid>
		<description>“commercial purpose”

bmaz: I humbly submit that you&#039;re being too narrowly conventional in your application of definitions.

The rest of your analysis may well moot the point, but just for the sake of the narrow issue, the purpose for which the music was used was indeed arguably commercial.

In the broadest sense, the music clearly was used for a specific purpose, employed by paid professionals who used it explicitly in the performance of the duties for which they were hired, by definition that being a commercial enterprise. It was not at all like someone playing a boombox - which is for pleasure of the listener. Fees were paid for services rendered, which was the playing of the music as a means for eliciting responses to interrogation.

Violation of copyright need not be solely in a &quot;public&quot; sphere; violation occurs when artists are deprived of due compensation for their work product. Any legit use of the artists&#039; material required a proper government contract specifying terms of use, just like any other government contract for services.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“commercial purpose”</p>
<p>bmaz: I humbly submit that you&#8217;re being too narrowly conventional in your application of definitions.</p>
<p>The rest of your analysis may well moot the point, but just for the sake of the narrow issue, the purpose for which the music was used was indeed arguably commercial.</p>
<p>In the broadest sense, the music clearly was used for a specific purpose, employed by paid professionals who used it explicitly in the performance of the duties for which they were hired, by definition that being a commercial enterprise. It was not at all like someone playing a boombox &#8211; which is for pleasure of the listener. Fees were paid for services rendered, which was the playing of the music as a means for eliciting responses to interrogation.</p>
<p>Violation of copyright need not be solely in a &#8220;public&#8221; sphere; violation occurs when artists are deprived of due compensation for their work product. Any legit use of the artists&#8217; material required a proper government contract specifying terms of use, just like any other government contract for services.</p>
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		<title>By: klynn</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/22/little-legal-recourse-for-artists-rage-against-musical-torture/#comment-195571</link>
		<dc:creator>klynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 18:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>A bunch of rich rockers bringing together some big legal minds to address the extended moral “right of integrity” recognized above and beyond the copyright, trademark and fair use law, I think, might get some press. Especially as a Rollingstone cover story on music and torture. Imagine the cover graphic.

It would probably create a collective gasp.

Hear that Rollingstone. Stop the presses. Change the cover story.

(And a cream pie for freep)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A bunch of rich rockers bringing together some big legal minds to address the extended moral “right of integrity” recognized above and beyond the copyright, trademark and fair use law, I think, might get some press. Especially as a Rollingstone cover story on music and torture. Imagine the cover graphic.</p>
<p>It would probably create a collective gasp.</p>
<p>Hear that Rollingstone. Stop the presses. Change the cover story.</p>
<p>(And a cream pie for freep)</p>
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		<title>By: freepatriot</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/22/little-legal-recourse-for-artists-rage-against-musical-torture/#comment-195563</link>
		<dc:creator>freepatriot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:19:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5278#comment-195563</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know if it&#039;s relevant to the discussion, but back in the day, we used to sit in the closet listening to AC-DC, just to be sure it was as loud as possible

so I&#039;m not sure that listening to Angus Young could ever be considered torture

and I&#039;m sure the CIA&#039;s sound system sucks, so I doubt they played it as loud as necessary to get the full effect

barry manilow, now that could be considered torture ...

jes sayin, is all

(duckin &amp; runnin)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s relevant to the discussion, but back in the day, we used to sit in the closet listening to AC-DC, just to be sure it was as loud as possible</p>
<p>so I&#8217;m not sure that listening to Angus Young could ever be considered torture</p>
<p>and I&#8217;m sure the CIA&#8217;s sound system sucks, so I doubt they played it as loud as necessary to get the full effect</p>
<p>barry manilow, now that could be considered torture &#8230;</p>
<p>jes sayin, is all</p>
<p>(duckin &amp; runnin)</p>
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		<title>By: BoxTurtle</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/22/little-legal-recourse-for-artists-rage-against-musical-torture/#comment-195561</link>
		<dc:creator>BoxTurtle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5278#comment-195561</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re likely correct. But right now, I&#039;m not hearing the sound of aging rockers prying loose from their couches or pop tarts undressing. I&#039;m hearing whining and whinging. 

If they act, it could make a real difference. I&#039;m probably stereotyping here, but rabid music fans are not the most politically aware demographic. Wake &#039;em up, no telling what might happen. 

Not sure that people who poke studs through their cheeks are a good choice to speak out against torture, though.

Boxturtle (That&#039;s not torture. I paid $500 to have a stud installed there)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re likely correct. But right now, I&#8217;m not hearing the sound of aging rockers prying loose from their couches or pop tarts undressing. I&#8217;m hearing whining and whinging. </p>
<p>If they act, it could make a real difference. I&#8217;m probably stereotyping here, but rabid music fans are not the most politically aware demographic. Wake &#8216;em up, no telling what might happen. </p>
<p>Not sure that people who poke studs through their cheeks are a good choice to speak out against torture, though.</p>
<p>Boxturtle (That&#8217;s not torture. I paid $500 to have a stud installed there)</p>
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		<title>By: joanneleon</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/22/little-legal-recourse-for-artists-rage-against-musical-torture/#comment-195560</link>
		<dc:creator>joanneleon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5278#comment-195560</guid>
		<description>Boxturtle, I&#039;m thinking that the old advice about not starting wars with people who buy ink by the barrel also applies to people who buy guitars, distortion pedals, and huge amplifiers who play at large concerts and whose music goes viral on YouTube and iTunes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boxturtle, I&#8217;m thinking that the old advice about not starting wars with people who buy ink by the barrel also applies to people who buy guitars, distortion pedals, and huge amplifiers who play at large concerts and whose music goes viral on YouTube and iTunes.</p>
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		<title>By: joanneleon</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/22/little-legal-recourse-for-artists-rage-against-musical-torture/#comment-195559</link>
		<dc:creator>joanneleon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:12:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5278#comment-195559</guid>
		<description>If they don&#039;t have any legal recourse, then I hope they use their artistic recourse profusely.

It still seems like there should be some way to keep people from associating your artistic work and reputation, against your will, with something as vile as torture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If they don&#8217;t have any legal recourse, then I hope they use their artistic recourse profusely.</p>
<p>It still seems like there should be some way to keep people from associating your artistic work and reputation, against your will, with something as vile as torture.</p>
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		<title>By: BoxTurtle</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/22/little-legal-recourse-for-artists-rage-against-musical-torture/#comment-195558</link>
		<dc:creator>BoxTurtle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5278#comment-195558</guid>
		<description>Their only weapon is bad publicity. But they can distribute it to a very wide, very loyal fan base rapidly. 

Imagine what would happen if Metallica asked their fans to call their congresscritters and tell them what they think. Bet the critters first response would be &quot;Rahm, is that you?&quot;. :-)

Brittany breaking down in tears on Oprah. Even FOX would report that, especially if she was wearing a bikini at the time.

Boxturtle (When your only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Their only weapon is bad publicity. But they can distribute it to a very wide, very loyal fan base rapidly. </p>
<p>Imagine what would happen if Metallica asked their fans to call their congresscritters and tell them what they think. Bet the critters first response would be &#8220;Rahm, is that you?&#8221;. :-)</p>
<p>Brittany breaking down in tears on Oprah. Even FOX would report that, especially if she was wearing a bikini at the time.</p>
<p>Boxturtle (When your only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail)</p>
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		<title>By: BoxTurtle</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/22/little-legal-recourse-for-artists-rage-against-musical-torture/#comment-195557</link>
		<dc:creator>BoxTurtle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5278#comment-195557</guid>
		<description>Perhaps they can get assigned to Judge Walker...he seems to go real easy on the sanctions. 

Boxturtle (Especially if you&#039;re the government)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps they can get assigned to Judge Walker&#8230;he seems to go real easy on the sanctions. </p>
<p>Boxturtle (Especially if you&#8217;re the government)</p>
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