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	<title>Comments on: Ezra: Workers Don&#8217;t Understand So an Excise Tax Will Work</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/21/ezra-workers-dont-understand-so-an-excise-tax-will-work/</link>
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		<title>By: clamberite</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/21/ezra-workers-dont-understand-so-an-excise-tax-will-work/#comment-195416</link>
		<dc:creator>clamberite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 05:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5231#comment-195416</guid>
		<description>Well nobody will read this but I must vent-Currently if you get employer provided insurance it is not taxed to you.  However, if you must buy insurance in the market on your own, you pay with after tax dollars.  So if you assume health benefits are wages, such as unions maintain, then they are untaxed wages. Good for the employee. Not fair if you are in the market alone, let alone that the insurance companies rate you different and you pay more because you are not in a group. So some equalization might be appropriate.  It could be in the reverse; IE not taxing you on the premiums you pay if you are in the private market.  However that doesn&#039;t provide the additional revenue they need for the new bill.  But this tact could be a good thing, equalizing the tax treatment on the insurance and then it would be easier to tax everyone for the lost revenue. That way some wouldn&#039;t feel they were getting screwed (unions with the luxury tax, private citizens not getting equal treatment), and then get it all back by taxing everybody the same (progressively of course.  Alternatively, we could go single payer and have a combination of sales tax and income tax to pay the bills.  Too simple, so obviously beyond our politicians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well nobody will read this but I must vent-Currently if you get employer provided insurance it is not taxed to you.  However, if you must buy insurance in the market on your own, you pay with after tax dollars.  So if you assume health benefits are wages, such as unions maintain, then they are untaxed wages. Good for the employee. Not fair if you are in the market alone, let alone that the insurance companies rate you different and you pay more because you are not in a group. So some equalization might be appropriate.  It could be in the reverse; IE not taxing you on the premiums you pay if you are in the private market.  However that doesn&#8217;t provide the additional revenue they need for the new bill.  But this tact could be a good thing, equalizing the tax treatment on the insurance and then it would be easier to tax everyone for the lost revenue. That way some wouldn&#8217;t feel they were getting screwed (unions with the luxury tax, private citizens not getting equal treatment), and then get it all back by taxing everybody the same (progressively of course.  Alternatively, we could go single payer and have a combination of sales tax and income tax to pay the bills.  Too simple, so obviously beyond our politicians.</p>
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		<title>By: 4jkb4ia</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/21/ezra-workers-dont-understand-so-an-excise-tax-will-work/#comment-195398</link>
		<dc:creator>4jkb4ia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 00:43:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5231#comment-195398</guid>
		<description>AIG&#039;s current stock price is THIRTY-NINE DOLLARS?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AIG&#8217;s current stock price is THIRTY-NINE DOLLARS?</p>
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		<title>By: 4jkb4ia</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/21/ezra-workers-dont-understand-so-an-excise-tax-will-work/#comment-195394</link>
		<dc:creator>4jkb4ia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 00:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5231#comment-195394</guid>
		<description>EW, this is a really super post. Ezra may have shown that health care costs going down are necessary for wages to go up, but it went over my head when I read the damn thing that he hasn&#039;t shown sufficient. 

I also think that Mary means Goldman Sachs instead of AIG because a) AIG is not in a position to turn up their nose at anybody and b) the Fed and Congress control whether AIG gets any more help. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EW, this is a really super post. Ezra may have shown that health care costs going down are necessary for wages to go up, but it went over my head when I read the damn thing that he hasn&#8217;t shown sufficient. </p>
<p>I also think that Mary means Goldman Sachs instead of AIG because a) AIG is not in a position to turn up their nose at anybody and b) the Fed and Congress control whether AIG gets any more help.</p>
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		<title>By: 4jkb4ia</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/21/ezra-workers-dont-understand-so-an-excise-tax-will-work/#comment-195385</link>
		<dc:creator>4jkb4ia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5231#comment-195385</guid>
		<description>Too early! The worst bill is the worst case that we know about now. There are enough positive noises coming out of committee reconciliation process that the worst bill may not be the final bill. Pelosi pushing for a robust public option is a very positive noise. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too early! The worst bill is the worst case that we know about now. There are enough positive noises coming out of committee reconciliation process that the worst bill may not be the final bill. Pelosi pushing for a robust public option is a very positive noise.</p>
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		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/21/ezra-workers-dont-understand-so-an-excise-tax-will-work/#comment-195381</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:24:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5231#comment-195381</guid>
		<description>I think the devil&#039;s in the details.  If the tax is paid by the employee instead of the company, it&#039;s a cost avoided by the company.  A tax paid by employees would lead to demands from employees that the company pick up the cost or pay higher wages, causing intra-firm friction managers would rather not have.  But to the extent it gives employers cover to shut down plans and blame it on the government and/or insurers, it helps them. 

Employers ought to back any measure that takes current and legacy costs off their hands.  Credible national health insurance and health care reforms would do that.  But it would come at the price of accepting a role for government the acceptance of which is normally bred out of managers before they make it to the top.
 
I don&#039;t see why employers should like this tax, either.  But as auto companies&#039; behavior demonstrates, employers have been known to prefer short-term self-destructive behavior at the expense of their long term survival.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the devil&#8217;s in the details.  If the tax is paid by the employee instead of the company, it&#8217;s a cost avoided by the company.  A tax paid by employees would lead to demands from employees that the company pick up the cost or pay higher wages, causing intra-firm friction managers would rather not have.  But to the extent it gives employers cover to shut down plans and blame it on the government and/or insurers, it helps them. </p>
<p>Employers ought to back any measure that takes current and legacy costs off their hands.  Credible national health insurance and health care reforms would do that.  But it would come at the price of accepting a role for government the acceptance of which is normally bred out of managers before they make it to the top.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see why employers should like this tax, either.  But as auto companies&#8217; behavior demonstrates, employers have been known to prefer short-term self-destructive behavior at the expense of their long term survival.</p>
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		<title>By: Peterr</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/21/ezra-workers-dont-understand-so-an-excise-tax-will-work/#comment-195378</link>
		<dc:creator>Peterr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5231#comment-195378</guid>
		<description>One other piece to that story.

Companies began offering health insurance as a benefit at a time when wages were frozen by law to keep inflation down during WWII. Said the companies, &quot;We can&#039;t offer you a raise, but we *can* give you this extra, non-wage benefit.&quot; By the time the inflation-fighting law was lifted, this became the accepted business practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One other piece to that story.</p>
<p>Companies began offering health insurance as a benefit at a time when wages were frozen by law to keep inflation down during WWII. Said the companies, &#8220;We can&#8217;t offer you a raise, but we *can* give you this extra, non-wage benefit.&#8221; By the time the inflation-fighting law was lifted, this became the accepted business practice.</p>
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		<title>By: Hmmm</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/21/ezra-workers-dont-understand-so-an-excise-tax-will-work/#comment-195376</link>
		<dc:creator>Hmmm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:19:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5231#comment-195376</guid>
		<description>That makes me wonder -- if health insurance cost is currently a pre-tax deduction to the employer, like wages, then where&#039;s the benefit to the employers in making employees pay income tax on the HI premiums?  Why would they want to support that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That makes me wonder &#8212; if health insurance cost is currently a pre-tax deduction to the employer, like wages, then where&#8217;s the benefit to the employers in making employees pay income tax on the HI premiums?  Why would they want to support that?</p>
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		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/21/ezra-workers-dont-understand-so-an-excise-tax-will-work/#comment-195374</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5231#comment-195374</guid>
		<description>That analysis goes to why employers might agree to employee demands for a medical insurance benefit.  It&#039;s a two-way street for the employer, they get a healthier workforce that&#039;s more productive, and they avoid paying higher direct wages, which improves financial performance and bonus payouts, and avoid driving up indirect costs tied to higher wages.  (Back in the day, that would have in included such things as employer taxes and pension obligations.)

As with using bankruptcies to get out from under inconvenient labor contracts, taxing insurance benefits takes away only the part of the deal owed to labor, not the part owed by management.  It doesn&#039;t directly reduce what the employer expects in return for providing insurance.  

That&#039;s a typically GOP approach - a way to cut the cost of a contract economically without directly challenging it - that the Democrats may find unproductive at the voting booth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That analysis goes to why employers might agree to employee demands for a medical insurance benefit.  It&#8217;s a two-way street for the employer, they get a healthier workforce that&#8217;s more productive, and they avoid paying higher direct wages, which improves financial performance and bonus payouts, and avoid driving up indirect costs tied to higher wages.  (Back in the day, that would have in included such things as employer taxes and pension obligations.)</p>
<p>As with using bankruptcies to get out from under inconvenient labor contracts, taxing insurance benefits takes away only the part of the deal owed to labor, not the part owed by management.  It doesn&#8217;t directly reduce what the employer expects in return for providing insurance.  </p>
<p>That&#8217;s a typically GOP approach &#8211; a way to cut the cost of a contract economically without directly challenging it &#8211; that the Democrats may find unproductive at the voting booth.</p>
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		<title>By: Hmmm</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/21/ezra-workers-dont-understand-so-an-excise-tax-will-work/#comment-195368</link>
		<dc:creator>Hmmm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:47:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5231#comment-195368</guid>
		<description>For the vast majority of employers and employees, I think the framing here is completely backwards.  Health insurance is tied to the workplace because what&#039;s really happening is that the employer is paying an insurance premium on top of wages in order to ensure (not insure as there is no payout to the employer when sickness happens) that the worker produces the maximum amount of work, by minimizing illness/injury downtime.  In other words, juice to ensure (not insure) that the employer receives the max for the wages paid out.  And that&#039;s why regarding employer-provided health insurance strictly as wages-by-another-name is inappropriate.  Sure, there is the benefit of health maintenance going to the worker &amp; family, but the employer provides health insurance chiefly for the employer&#039;s own benefit, not the insureds&#039;.  (The dynamic is different for higher-end jobs, where health benefits are a differentiator for in-demand job seekers, but there are very few of these as compared to the total number of workers.)

I guess employers taking out life insurance on employees is all of a piece with this view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the vast majority of employers and employees, I think the framing here is completely backwards.  Health insurance is tied to the workplace because what&#8217;s really happening is that the employer is paying an insurance premium on top of wages in order to ensure (not insure as there is no payout to the employer when sickness happens) that the worker produces the maximum amount of work, by minimizing illness/injury downtime.  In other words, juice to ensure (not insure) that the employer receives the max for the wages paid out.  And that&#8217;s why regarding employer-provided health insurance strictly as wages-by-another-name is inappropriate.  Sure, there is the benefit of health maintenance going to the worker &amp; family, but the employer provides health insurance chiefly for the employer&#8217;s own benefit, not the insureds&#8217;.  (The dynamic is different for higher-end jobs, where health benefits are a differentiator for in-demand job seekers, but there are very few of these as compared to the total number of workers.)</p>
<p>I guess employers taking out life insurance on employees is all of a piece with this view.</p>
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		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/21/ezra-workers-dont-understand-so-an-excise-tax-will-work/#comment-195358</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:53:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5231#comment-195358</guid>
		<description>Insurers gamed a patchwork of state regulators, as they gamed the employers who were paying them to manage benefits payments (originally, not the medical care itself).  It also took quite a while to recognize that the insuresters who bought the casino were the same guys who used to park cars and open and close doors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Insurers gamed a patchwork of state regulators, as they gamed the employers who were paying them to manage benefits payments (originally, not the medical care itself).  It also took quite a while to recognize that the insuresters who bought the casino were the same guys who used to park cars and open and close doors.</p>
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