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	<title>Comments on: More Proposed Oversight from John Conyers</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/20/more-proposed-oversight-from-john-conyers/</link>
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		<title>By: bobschacht</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/20/more-proposed-oversight-from-john-conyers/#comment-195370</link>
		<dc:creator>bobschacht</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:48:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5225#comment-195370</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In summary, while the CIA had found a number of documents that aren’t “covered by any exemptions that may be asserted by the CIA”, they’re still not going to turn them over because they would “interfere with Special Prosecutor John Durham’s ongoing criminal investigation into the destruction of the videotapes.” (My Bold)

Interesting that it is still “ongoing”, but I still am standing by my bet with EW that no indictments get handed down, and hence, no convictions.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I am still inclined to think (hope?) that timing is everything, and that sometime after the State of the Union message next January, Durham will find the way clear to indict a few people (who happen to be Republicans). After all, next summer, with elections only a few months away, would be a good time to remind the voting public about the corruption of the Republican brand. 

Oh, but I am *not* suggesting [slaps hand over mouth] that a prosecutorial discussion will be  influenced by political considerations. Perish the thought! Just because our president was schooled in Chicago politics....

Um, what was the question again?

Bob in AZ</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In summary, while the CIA had found a number of documents that aren’t “covered by any exemptions that may be asserted by the CIA”, they’re still not going to turn them over because they would “interfere with Special Prosecutor John Durham’s ongoing criminal investigation into the destruction of the videotapes.” (My Bold)</p>
<p>Interesting that it is still “ongoing”, but I still am standing by my bet with EW that no indictments get handed down, and hence, no convictions.</p></blockquote>
<p>I am still inclined to think (hope?) that timing is everything, and that sometime after the State of the Union message next January, Durham will find the way clear to indict a few people (who happen to be Republicans). After all, next summer, with elections only a few months away, would be a good time to remind the voting public about the corruption of the Republican brand. </p>
<p>Oh, but I am *not* suggesting [slaps hand over mouth] that a prosecutorial discussion will be  influenced by political considerations. Perish the thought! Just because our president was schooled in Chicago politics&#8230;.</p>
<p>Um, what was the question again?</p>
<p>Bob in AZ</p>
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		<title>By: fatster</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/20/more-proposed-oversight-from-john-conyers/#comment-195346</link>
		<dc:creator>fatster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:03:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5225#comment-195346</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.salon.com/wires/ap/world/2009/10/21/D9BFLDN80_cb_guantanamo_trials/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Prosecutors seek delay&lt;/a&gt; in Guantanamo case (Noor Muhammed).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.salon.com/wires/ap/world/2009/10/21/D9BFLDN80_cb_guantanamo_trials/index.html" rel="nofollow">Prosecutors seek delay</a> in Guantanamo case (Noor Muhammed).</p>
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		<title>By: MadDog</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/20/more-proposed-oversight-from-john-conyers/#comment-195330</link>
		<dc:creator>MadDog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5225#comment-195330</guid>
		<description>I hadn&#039;t thought of that. Is Durham&#039;s behavior the norm or Margolis?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hadn&#8217;t thought of that. Is Durham&#8217;s behavior the norm or Margolis?</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/20/more-proposed-oversight-from-john-conyers/#comment-195324</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5225#comment-195324</guid>
		<description>Shocking!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shocking!</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/20/more-proposed-oversight-from-john-conyers/#comment-195320</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:27:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5225#comment-195320</guid>
		<description>Notice in that letter that when they are talking about the investigations exemption, they are talking about Durham himself making the representations directly to the court.  Not affidativits from Bradbury and Breuer et al.  Compare and contrast with the Dick Cheney documents, where no one in the investigative chain makes the claim on behalf of the documents  - not the Special Prosecutor there nor the supposed overseer of that Spec Pros (Margolis).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Notice in that letter that when they are talking about the investigations exemption, they are talking about Durham himself making the representations directly to the court.  Not affidativits from Bradbury and Breuer et al.  Compare and contrast with the Dick Cheney documents, where no one in the investigative chain makes the claim on behalf of the documents  &#8211; not the Special Prosecutor there nor the supposed overseer of that Spec Pros (Margolis).</p>
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		<title>By: MadDog</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/20/more-proposed-oversight-from-john-conyers/#comment-195315</link>
		<dc:creator>MadDog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5225#comment-195315</guid>
		<description>OT - From the ACLU:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.aclu.org/pdfs/safefree/govtletter_ciatapes.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Government&#039;s letter to District Court regarding processing of records related to destroyed videotapes&lt;/a&gt; (10/19/2009) (2 page PDF)

The latest CIA letter has to do with the CIA&#039;s response to Judge Hellerstein&#039;s April 20, 2009 &quot;paragraph 4&quot; order regarding their production of CIA documents that relate to the CIA&#039;s destruction of the torture videotapes.

In summary, while the CIA had found a number of documents that aren&#039;t &quot;covered by any exemptions that may be asserted by the CIA&quot;, they&#039;re still not going to turn them over because they would &quot;interfere with Special Prosecutor John Durham&#039;s &lt;b&gt;ongoing&lt;/b&gt; criminal investigation into the destruction of the videotapes.&quot; (My Bold)

Interesting that it is still &quot;ongoing&quot;, but I still am standing by my bet with EW that no indictments get handed down, and hence, no convictions.

It was for a nickle, right EW? :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OT &#8211; From the ACLU:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.aclu.org/pdfs/safefree/govtletter_ciatapes.pdf" rel="nofollow">Government&#8217;s letter to District Court regarding processing of records related to destroyed videotapes</a> (10/19/2009) (2 page PDF)</p>
<p>The latest CIA letter has to do with the CIA&#8217;s response to Judge Hellerstein&#8217;s April 20, 2009 &#8220;paragraph 4&#8243; order regarding their production of CIA documents that relate to the CIA&#8217;s destruction of the torture videotapes.</p>
<p>In summary, while the CIA had found a number of documents that aren&#8217;t &#8220;covered by any exemptions that may be asserted by the CIA&#8221;, they&#8217;re still not going to turn them over because they would &#8220;interfere with Special Prosecutor John Durham&#8217;s <b>ongoing</b> criminal investigation into the destruction of the videotapes.&#8221; (My Bold)</p>
<p>Interesting that it is still &#8220;ongoing&#8221;, but I still am standing by my bet with EW that no indictments get handed down, and hence, no convictions.</p>
<p>It was for a nickle, right EW? :D</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/20/more-proposed-oversight-from-john-conyers/#comment-195314</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5225#comment-195314</guid>
		<description>A much shorter, but kind of non-sequitor, comment.  Basically, the Constitutional provision for &quot;oversight&quot; of Executive branch searches and seizures is interposing the judiciary to make an independent determination of probable cause.  Congress is trying, over and over, with FISA and in other areas, to circument this Constitutional approach and interpose a system of letting the Executive do anything, but then make &quot;reports&quot; to Congress and operate under some &quot;rules&quot; provided by Congress, but rules with no consequences for violations and no means of forcing disclosures to Congress if there are states secrets invocations or &quot;executive privilege&quot; invocations.  

It doesn&#039;t work - no amount of interposing a largely ceremonial Congressional committee as a &quot;reviewer&quot; (without power to prevent or punish) of Executive activities can effectively replace the Constitutional scheme of &quot;oversight&quot; that REQUIRES PRIOR JUDICIAL review and approval. It&#039;s like saying let&#039;s have the Executive decide what laws it wants and then the Judiciary can appoint an oversight committee to get reports from the Executive on how it is enforcing the laws it decided it wanted, and that way everyone can just skip Congress being involved in the legislative process at all  The courts are supposed to be the oversight branch for Executive search and seizure - not Congressional committes getting reports from IGs who operate under classified review and exec privilege stritures, and who are Exec employees despite their supposed duty to report to Congress.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A much shorter, but kind of non-sequitor, comment.  Basically, the Constitutional provision for &#8220;oversight&#8221; of Executive branch searches and seizures is interposing the judiciary to make an independent determination of probable cause.  Congress is trying, over and over, with FISA and in other areas, to circument this Constitutional approach and interpose a system of letting the Executive do anything, but then make &#8220;reports&#8221; to Congress and operate under some &#8220;rules&#8221; provided by Congress, but rules with no consequences for violations and no means of forcing disclosures to Congress if there are states secrets invocations or &#8220;executive privilege&#8221; invocations.  </p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t work &#8211; no amount of interposing a largely ceremonial Congressional committee as a &#8220;reviewer&#8221; (without power to prevent or punish) of Executive activities can effectively replace the Constitutional scheme of &#8220;oversight&#8221; that REQUIRES PRIOR JUDICIAL review and approval. It&#8217;s like saying let&#8217;s have the Executive decide what laws it wants and then the Judiciary can appoint an oversight committee to get reports from the Executive on how it is enforcing the laws it decided it wanted, and that way everyone can just skip Congress being involved in the legislative process at all  The courts are supposed to be the oversight branch for Executive search and seizure &#8211; not Congressional committes getting reports from IGs who operate under classified review and exec privilege stritures, and who are Exec employees despite their supposed duty to report to Congress.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim White</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/20/more-proposed-oversight-from-john-conyers/#comment-195312</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:20:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5225#comment-195312</guid>
		<description>OT: I&#039;m off to read &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.truthout.org/1021091&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jason Leopold&#039;s latest&lt;/a&gt;: Judge rules defense to get Abu Zubaydah&#039;s diary of torture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OT: I&#8217;m off to read <a href="http://www.truthout.org/1021091" rel="nofollow">Jason Leopold&#8217;s latest</a>: Judge rules defense to get Abu Zubaydah&#8217;s diary of torture.</p>
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		<title>By: fatster</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/20/more-proposed-oversight-from-john-conyers/#comment-195311</link>
		<dc:creator>fatster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5225#comment-195311</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Lithuanian President Announces Investigation into CIA Secret Prison
Investigation a result of ABC News.com report on CIA &#039;Black Site&#039; in Lithuanian Capitol&lt;/strong&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/lithuania-investigating-secret-cia-prisons/story?id=8874887&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Link&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Lithuanian President Announces Investigation into CIA Secret Prison<br />
Investigation a result of ABC News.com report on CIA &#8216;Black Site&#8217; in Lithuanian Capitol</strong></p>
<p><a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/lithuania-investigating-secret-cia-prisons/story?id=8874887" rel="nofollow">Link</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: readerOfTeaLeaves</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/10/20/more-proposed-oversight-from-john-conyers/#comment-195310</link>
		<dc:creator>readerOfTeaLeaves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/?p=5225#comment-195310</guid>
		<description>In the bigger picture, am I the only one who thinks that the way Congressional committees are so 18th century they almost inadvertantly exacerbate the fragmentation and disjunctions between our laws, and our policies?

In one sense, I&#039;m not sure what the Patriot Act can restore as long as banks and corporations can keep sending money to tax havens for laundering...

Without somehow linking the insta-declassification in the national security sector to insta-legal changes in the financial structure (via Treasury rules, or Commerce procedures), I don&#039;t see how even these proposed changes can make all that much difference.

Sorry to sound pessimistic, but I simply don&#039;t see these proposed changes linking up to the financial processes and money laundering activities that seem to be undermining the stated policy goals of say... Dept of State.

Perhaps it was this week&#039;s news that hedge funder Raj Rajaratnam, arrested based on evidence obtained by wiretaps,&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/933ae13c-bc45-11de-9426-00144feab49a.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; was helping fund the Tamil Tigers&lt;/a&gt; that has me  pessimistic that these piecemeal fixes are actually going to be all that effective.

You can fix DoJ, but if they have no ability to investigate Commerce, or Treasury changes (and yes, I&#039;m thinking TARP) what&#039;s the point over the long term?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the bigger picture, am I the only one who thinks that the way Congressional committees are so 18th century they almost inadvertantly exacerbate the fragmentation and disjunctions between our laws, and our policies?</p>
<p>In one sense, I&#8217;m not sure what the Patriot Act can restore as long as banks and corporations can keep sending money to tax havens for laundering&#8230;</p>
<p>Without somehow linking the insta-declassification in the national security sector to insta-legal changes in the financial structure (via Treasury rules, or Commerce procedures), I don&#8217;t see how even these proposed changes can make all that much difference.</p>
<p>Sorry to sound pessimistic, but I simply don&#8217;t see these proposed changes linking up to the financial processes and money laundering activities that seem to be undermining the stated policy goals of say&#8230; Dept of State.</p>
<p>Perhaps it was this week&#8217;s news that hedge funder Raj Rajaratnam, arrested based on evidence obtained by wiretaps,<a href="http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/933ae13c-bc45-11de-9426-00144feab49a.html" rel="nofollow"> was helping fund the Tamil Tigers</a> that has me  pessimistic that these piecemeal fixes are actually going to be all that effective.</p>
<p>You can fix DoJ, but if they have no ability to investigate Commerce, or Treasury changes (and yes, I&#8217;m thinking TARP) what&#8217;s the point over the long term?</p>
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