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	<title>Comments on: Law &amp; Order v. John Yoo</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/</link>
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		<title>By: thedeanpeople</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-192108</link>
		<dc:creator>thedeanpeople</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:29:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-192108</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Just to “bottom line” this for everyone.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Torture is a viral, radioactive toxin&lt;/strong&gt; that continues to ravage our society. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Obama has re-founded our once-great country as a Torture Nation — through his willful, active refusal to simply abide by and enforce the laws and treaty obligations our Greater Generations fought and died to forge.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Those like Garrison Keillor, who want to wish it away as “bygones,” — or who’d rather selfishly improve our own economic or healthcare situations than meet or moral duty — are simply aiding and abetting torturers and torture after-(and almost certainly before)-the-fact.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;No, there is no middle ground. No, you can’t “multitask.” No, you are not helpless to act. No, there is no excuse for not interjecting our torture shame into every other less-important conversation you have. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;That’s all rationalization. You’re either on the Torture Team or not.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to “bottom line” this for everyone.</p>
<p><strong>Torture is a viral, radioactive toxin</strong> that continues to ravage our society. </p>
<p>Obama has re-founded our once-great country as a Torture Nation — through his willful, active refusal to simply abide by and enforce the laws and treaty obligations our Greater Generations fought and died to forge.</p>
<p>Those like Garrison Keillor, who want to wish it away as “bygones,” — or who’d rather selfishly improve our own economic or healthcare situations than meet or moral duty — are simply aiding and abetting torturers and torture after-(and almost certainly before)-the-fact.</p>
<p>No, there is no middle ground. No, you can’t “multitask.” No, you are not helpless to act. No, there is no excuse for not interjecting our torture shame into every other less-important conversation you have. </p>
<p>That’s all rationalization. You’re either on the Torture Team or not.</p>
<p>—</p>
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		<title>By: cinnamonape</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-192019</link>
		<dc:creator>cinnamonape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-192019</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;That would be a good follow-up program. Air Cutter’s comments in the “re-cap” they have…and then discover that the victim was not likely to have been a “terrorist” at all…or that others tortured definitely were not. This could lead to the “in order to make an omelet you have to break a few eggs” comment. Flashback to a scene where the “suspect” was apprehended…after a drone strike on a wedding convoy that killed women and children.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That would be a good follow-up program. Air Cutter’s comments in the “re-cap” they have…and then discover that the victim was not likely to have been a “terrorist” at all…or that others tortured definitely were not. This could lead to the “in order to make an omelet you have to break a few eggs” comment. Flashback to a scene where the “suspect” was apprehended…after a drone strike on a wedding convoy that killed women and children.</p>
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		<title>By: radiofreewill</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191965</link>
		<dc:creator>radiofreewill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191965</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;“We can’t continue to treat organic systems as if they were mechanisms and get anywhere we haven’t already been, we’ll just keep repeating on ever larger scales the horrors of history generated by runaway mechanism.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Greetings, knowbuddhau!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I like what you say, but I don’t think that very many people actually understand the extent to which they - themselves - have become ‘mechanistic’ through repetitive conditioning by ‘industrial strength’ Corporate products - food, news, sports, entertainment, etc.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’m fortunate in that I get to regularly enjoy lengthy periods of solitude in a natural setting with healthy organic food.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Just looking at food - our bodies crave salt, sugar and fat. In nature, you just can’t get those three in any kind of big quantities, but small sources are abundant. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;When I’m getting a nice balance of salt, sugar and fat mixed-in with in my diet - I have energy with staying power, my body processes run clean and I sleep like a baby.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;To find a natural, real-time, balanced and harmonious - organic - relationship with my experience is then not all that difficult, because I’m actually living in a balanced and harmonious relationship with nature.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;However, for instance, when I have a Coke - I’m dumping massive amounts of caffeine and sugar into my body - overwhelming my senses with a rush of stuff that my body craves.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And my body wants a Coke every day at that same time from then on.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The fat in McDonald’s hamburgers, chocolate ice cream, candy, etc, etc - it’s all available - on the shelf, so to speak - at every hour of every day. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Industrial Strength sensory overload that puts its stamp on us so firmly that, afterwards, we crave having it regularly. Essentially, we are letting ourselves be ‘Mechanistically’ programmed into habits that usually aren’t good for our health, but do happen to keep the money-wheel going around for the Corporations.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Most people that I know - not all, but most - are living lives that are shot-thru from morning till night with conditioned consumption of ‘industrial strength’ products. Products that keep bringing them back for another jolt of something their body and/or mind then craves.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Most people in America are No Where Near the rhythms of nature’s harmony and balance. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And, I just don’t ’see’ any hope for meaningful Social Activism, unless we - for ourselves - are first willing to be Personally Active in throwing-off the yoke of Corporate Addiction-by-Design Products that are killing US. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Imvho, we have to free ourselves from the un-natural mechanistic forces of Coporations - that drive immoral profit - before we can effectively settle-in to a truly organic relationship with our experience.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We’ve got to stop dumping that trash into ourselves!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Getting the word out is always good - you can count on my support - thanks for your efforts!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“We can’t continue to treat organic systems as if they were mechanisms and get anywhere we haven’t already been, we’ll just keep repeating on ever larger scales the horrors of history generated by runaway mechanism.”</p>
<p>Greetings, knowbuddhau!</p>
<p>I like what you say, but I don’t think that very many people actually understand the extent to which they &#8211; themselves &#8211; have become ‘mechanistic’ through repetitive conditioning by ‘industrial strength’ Corporate products &#8211; food, news, sports, entertainment, etc.</p>
<p>I’m fortunate in that I get to regularly enjoy lengthy periods of solitude in a natural setting with healthy organic food.</p>
<p>Just looking at food &#8211; our bodies crave salt, sugar and fat. In nature, you just can’t get those three in any kind of big quantities, but small sources are abundant. </p>
<p>When I’m getting a nice balance of salt, sugar and fat mixed-in with in my diet &#8211; I have energy with staying power, my body processes run clean and I sleep like a baby.</p>
<p>To find a natural, real-time, balanced and harmonious &#8211; organic &#8211; relationship with my experience is then not all that difficult, because I’m actually living in a balanced and harmonious relationship with nature.</p>
<p>However, for instance, when I have a Coke &#8211; I’m dumping massive amounts of caffeine and sugar into my body &#8211; overwhelming my senses with a rush of stuff that my body craves.</p>
<p>And my body wants a Coke every day at that same time from then on.</p>
<p>The fat in McDonald’s hamburgers, chocolate ice cream, candy, etc, etc &#8211; it’s all available &#8211; on the shelf, so to speak &#8211; at every hour of every day. </p>
<p>Industrial Strength sensory overload that puts its stamp on us so firmly that, afterwards, we crave having it regularly. Essentially, we are letting ourselves be ‘Mechanistically’ programmed into habits that usually aren’t good for our health, but do happen to keep the money-wheel going around for the Corporations.</p>
<p>Most people that I know &#8211; not all, but most &#8211; are living lives that are shot-thru from morning till night with conditioned consumption of ‘industrial strength’ products. Products that keep bringing them back for another jolt of something their body and/or mind then craves.</p>
<p>Most people in America are No Where Near the rhythms of nature’s harmony and balance. </p>
<p>And, I just don’t ’see’ any hope for meaningful Social Activism, unless we &#8211; for ourselves &#8211; are first willing to be Personally Active in throwing-off the yoke of Corporate Addiction-by-Design Products that are killing US. </p>
<p>Imvho, we have to free ourselves from the un-natural mechanistic forces of Coporations &#8211; that drive immoral profit &#8211; before we can effectively settle-in to a truly organic relationship with our experience.</p>
<p>We’ve got to stop dumping that trash into ourselves!</p>
<p>Getting the word out is always good &#8211; you can count on my support &#8211; thanks for your efforts!</p>
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		<title>By: pdaly</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191822</link>
		<dc:creator>pdaly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191822</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I liked the show, too. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;One quibble with the Cutter character prosecuting Franklin–Cutter’s admission of a post 9/11 ‘understanding’ why our government would do whatever it takes to defend America from these terrorists. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I know it is a dramatic device to represent the thoughts/arguments of some Americans, but McCoy (and Law and Order) could have done more to disabuse Cutter of his unspoken assumption that only ‘terrorists’ are in detention. In fact, McCoy could  have appealed to Cutter’s love of the law to make that point that because the rule of law was ignored (no habeas corpus) innocent people collected and turned over to US forces for a profit by warlords are being detained and tortured, too.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Torture does not work. And torturing innocents is pure blind rage, not blind justice.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I liked the show, too. </p>
<p>One quibble with the Cutter character prosecuting Franklin–Cutter’s admission of a post 9/11 ‘understanding’ why our government would do whatever it takes to defend America from these terrorists. </p>
<p>I know it is a dramatic device to represent the thoughts/arguments of some Americans, but McCoy (and Law and Order) could have done more to disabuse Cutter of his unspoken assumption that only ‘terrorists’ are in detention. In fact, McCoy could  have appealed to Cutter’s love of the law to make that point that because the rule of law was ignored (no habeas corpus) innocent people collected and turned over to US forces for a profit by warlords are being detained and tortured, too.</p>
<p>Torture does not work. And torturing innocents is pure blind rage, not blind justice.</p>
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		<title>By: TheOtherWA</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191802</link>
		<dc:creator>TheOtherWA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 16:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191802</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The show was quite good. But at the end I wanted them to question the jurors about the verdict. I suppose it was best to leave that hanging.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The show was quite good. But at the end I wanted them to question the jurors about the verdict. I suppose it was best to leave that hanging.</p>
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		<title>By: tbau</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191799</link>
		<dc:creator>tbau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 16:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191799</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;LOL, none of that is going to keep obama from being the firewall against torture prosecutions.  his life for them.  yeah, he’s THAT guy.  spit.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL, none of that is going to keep obama from being the firewall against torture prosecutions.  his life for them.  yeah, he’s THAT guy.  spit.</p>
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		<title>By: knowbuddhau</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191783</link>
		<dc:creator>knowbuddhau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 15:34:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191783</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for the review, much appreciated.  An excellent explication of the importance and power of narrative, which itself reminds me of one of my all-time favorite articles.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;PETER HERSHOCK&lt;/b&gt;: Granted the Buddha’s unequivocal injunction to see ‘is’ and ‘is-not’ as the “twin barbs” on which all humankind is impaled, the pursuit of freedom so defined cannot but institute the root conditions for conflict and a preoccupation with security. The valorization of anonymity and autonomy institutionalizes ignorance and thus at once shadows and ensures the continued possibility of authoritarianism and coercion. Because the world of autonomy is, at bottom, an Hegelian one in which all masters of their circumstances are the antitheses of ‘others’ who are thereby enslaved, the most carefully wrought legal institutions — the products of successful social activism — may effectively soften the modalities of our bondage, but will never entirely dissolve them. Secure borders not only keep threats from coming in, they prohibit free expression or movement outward.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There is no disputing that social activist movements have led to dismantling such degrading and highly partial institutions as slavery, segregated schooling, and sex-specific hiring practices. &lt;b&gt;But because many of the teleological and strategic building blocks — that is, the foundational concepts — of these institutions have been salvaged in the process of legally managing our ‘fair’ and ‘just’ co-existence, our progress has been in the direction of more complex, global, and invisible institutions for our regulated mediation. New powers certainly reign, but it is still a reign of power&lt;/b&gt; in which every instance of factual independence is purchased at the cost of increasing dependence on those (largely legal, but also technological and cultural) institutions that generically insure our collective right to be left alone and to dictate the tenor of our circumstances. Degradation has not been abolished. Instead, by virtue of our bias for dealing with conflicts or social malaise through control, degradation has been woven ever more finely and essentially into the fabric of our shared narration. The locus of structurally compromised dignity is, however, not primarily ‘you’ and ‘me’ as individuals, but our relationships as such — the interpersonal body of our conduct. Thus, although each one of us is on average better off and freer than ever before, we — our marriages, our families, our communities — are not.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;From a Buddhist perspective, this “unexpected” consequence of social activist success — like the broken promises of technological salvation — pivots on our critical inattention to the karmic nature of the world in which we live. By wrongly assuming that relationships are logically and ontologically posterior to whatever ‘is’ related, and by asserting the “natural” existence of persons as individuals possessing transcendent rights to autonomy in an essentially impersonal and objective world, we have tacitly granted an invisible and highly valorized status to a critical blind spot. Hence the impossibility of mounting a discussion of freedom without invoking determinism and the perennial divergence of what is good for ‘me’ and what is good for ‘us’.[1] At the same time, since placing too weighty an emphasis on either ‘good’ necessarily upsets the ground of our co-existence, and since the control of any situation can never be truly shared, such existential upsets are from the outset guaranteed. &lt;b&gt;Blind to our karmic or dramatically interdependent nature and firmly holding to the either/or logic of the excluded middle, we have developed a notion of freedom that is contradictory and self-defeating.&lt;/b&gt; The very ‘freedom’ that legally instituted human rights are intended to secure and preserve is what makes these rights necessary in the first place.[2]&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It was insight into precisely this auto-generative pattern of upset or trouble (&lt;i&gt;dukkha&lt;/i&gt;) that occasioned the Buddha’s injunction to see all things as empty of any essential self-nature [all holding or carrying is essentially self-emptying] — to relinquish not only our individual habits of self-identification, but also the security of our cultural inheritance of axiomatic “facts” about the way things really are and should be. &lt;b&gt;Attending to the [self-emptying] of all things — ourselves included — promises nothing short of a new “Copernican” revolution by means of which the self-other and freedom-determinism dichotomies are effectively undermined and concrete avenues opened for the practice of a truly social activism aimed at dissolving the dramatic conditions of (especially chronic) suffering.&lt;/b&gt; [Emphasis added.] &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.buddhistethics.org/6/hershock991.html#Change&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Changing the Way Society Changes: transposing social activism into a dramatic key&lt;/a&gt;. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It’s the mythic narrative of dominance by kinetic activity, even in social activism, dammit!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We are not artifacts, mechanisms created by a celestial creator absolutely and eternally apart from our selves; we are growing from within by the power of kenosis, self-emptying, by which mundane miracle, for example, these unspoken words self-empty simply by passing your eyes over them.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Even as I pour my heart out into these words, and like cups of tea, pass them over to you, where, without forcing it, you hear this unspoken voice, just so our shared narrative will deliver us precisely as we load it with our intentions.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I hope this will be the high-water mark for the application of Newtonian mechanics to human social problems.  Are we going to continue pretending to be fully-automatic mechanisms, susceptible to malicious hacking like mere voting-machines on two legs?  Then torture is only an extreme, no different than threatening whole nations with nuclear-powered annihilation.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Torture is the nuclear option on the personal scale, the ultimate mistaking of another human being for an object susceptible to mechanical manipulation.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But that’s the way we still think the world &lt;i&gt;works&lt;/i&gt;, so what’s so surprising that people who believe life is an eternal holy war should turn society into a perpetual motion holy war cash machine?  And even we who reject holy war still think the cosmos is some king of mechanism governed by Newton’s laws; and, as we are the masters of those laws, we are also the masters of the universe.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If we never check our most fundamental assumptions, if we build into our solutions the assumptions that created the problems to begin with, we won’t advance our shared narrative one more jot.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We can’t continue to treat organic systems as if they were mechanisms and get anywhere we haven’t already been, we’ll just keep repeating on ever larger scales the horrors of history generated by runaway mechanism.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the review, much appreciated.  An excellent explication of the importance and power of narrative, which itself reminds me of one of my all-time favorite articles.</p>
<blockquote><p><b>PETER HERSHOCK</b>: Granted the Buddha’s unequivocal injunction to see ‘is’ and ‘is-not’ as the “twin barbs” on which all humankind is impaled, the pursuit of freedom so defined cannot but institute the root conditions for conflict and a preoccupation with security. The valorization of anonymity and autonomy institutionalizes ignorance and thus at once shadows and ensures the continued possibility of authoritarianism and coercion. Because the world of autonomy is, at bottom, an Hegelian one in which all masters of their circumstances are the antitheses of ‘others’ who are thereby enslaved, the most carefully wrought legal institutions — the products of successful social activism — may effectively soften the modalities of our bondage, but will never entirely dissolve them. Secure borders not only keep threats from coming in, they prohibit free expression or movement outward.</p>
<p>There is no disputing that social activist movements have led to dismantling such degrading and highly partial institutions as slavery, segregated schooling, and sex-specific hiring practices. <b>But because many of the teleological and strategic building blocks — that is, the foundational concepts — of these institutions have been salvaged in the process of legally managing our ‘fair’ and ‘just’ co-existence, our progress has been in the direction of more complex, global, and invisible institutions for our regulated mediation. New powers certainly reign, but it is still a reign of power</b> in which every instance of factual independence is purchased at the cost of increasing dependence on those (largely legal, but also technological and cultural) institutions that generically insure our collective right to be left alone and to dictate the tenor of our circumstances. Degradation has not been abolished. Instead, by virtue of our bias for dealing with conflicts or social malaise through control, degradation has been woven ever more finely and essentially into the fabric of our shared narration. The locus of structurally compromised dignity is, however, not primarily ‘you’ and ‘me’ as individuals, but our relationships as such — the interpersonal body of our conduct. Thus, although each one of us is on average better off and freer than ever before, we — our marriages, our families, our communities — are not.</p>
<p>From a Buddhist perspective, this “unexpected” consequence of social activist success — like the broken promises of technological salvation — pivots on our critical inattention to the karmic nature of the world in which we live. By wrongly assuming that relationships are logically and ontologically posterior to whatever ‘is’ related, and by asserting the “natural” existence of persons as individuals possessing transcendent rights to autonomy in an essentially impersonal and objective world, we have tacitly granted an invisible and highly valorized status to a critical blind spot. Hence the impossibility of mounting a discussion of freedom without invoking determinism and the perennial divergence of what is good for ‘me’ and what is good for ‘us’.[1] At the same time, since placing too weighty an emphasis on either ‘good’ necessarily upsets the ground of our co-existence, and since the control of any situation can never be truly shared, such existential upsets are from the outset guaranteed. <b>Blind to our karmic or dramatically interdependent nature and firmly holding to the either/or logic of the excluded middle, we have developed a notion of freedom that is contradictory and self-defeating.</b> The very ‘freedom’ that legally instituted human rights are intended to secure and preserve is what makes these rights necessary in the first place.[2]</p>
<p>It was insight into precisely this auto-generative pattern of upset or trouble (<i>dukkha</i>) that occasioned the Buddha’s injunction to see all things as empty of any essential self-nature [all holding or carrying is essentially self-emptying] — to relinquish not only our individual habits of self-identification, but also the security of our cultural inheritance of axiomatic “facts” about the way things really are and should be. <b>Attending to the [self-emptying] of all things — ourselves included — promises nothing short of a new “Copernican” revolution by means of which the self-other and freedom-determinism dichotomies are effectively undermined and concrete avenues opened for the practice of a truly social activism aimed at dissolving the dramatic conditions of (especially chronic) suffering.</b> [Emphasis added.] <a href="http://www.buddhistethics.org/6/hershock991.html#Change" rel="nofollow">Changing the Way Society Changes: transposing social activism into a dramatic key</a>. </p>
</blockquote>
<p>It’s the mythic narrative of dominance by kinetic activity, even in social activism, dammit!</p>
<p>We are not artifacts, mechanisms created by a celestial creator absolutely and eternally apart from our selves; we are growing from within by the power of kenosis, self-emptying, by which mundane miracle, for example, these unspoken words self-empty simply by passing your eyes over them.</p>
<p>Even as I pour my heart out into these words, and like cups of tea, pass them over to you, where, without forcing it, you hear this unspoken voice, just so our shared narrative will deliver us precisely as we load it with our intentions.  </p>
<p>I hope this will be the high-water mark for the application of Newtonian mechanics to human social problems.  Are we going to continue pretending to be fully-automatic mechanisms, susceptible to malicious hacking like mere voting-machines on two legs?  Then torture is only an extreme, no different than threatening whole nations with nuclear-powered annihilation.</p>
<p>Torture is the nuclear option on the personal scale, the ultimate mistaking of another human being for an object susceptible to mechanical manipulation.  </p>
<p>But that’s the way we still think the world <i>works</i>, so what’s so surprising that people who believe life is an eternal holy war should turn society into a perpetual motion holy war cash machine?  And even we who reject holy war still think the cosmos is some king of mechanism governed by Newton’s laws; and, as we are the masters of those laws, we are also the masters of the universe.</p>
<p>If we never check our most fundamental assumptions, if we build into our solutions the assumptions that created the problems to begin with, we won’t advance our shared narrative one more jot.</p>
<p>We can’t continue to treat organic systems as if they were mechanisms and get anywhere we haven’t already been, we’ll just keep repeating on ever larger scales the horrors of history generated by runaway mechanism.</p>
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		<title>By: tjbs</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191774</link>
		<dc:creator>tjbs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191774</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;May I beg to differ, if you please.&lt;br /&gt;
First the under 35 crowd understands little about Nuremburg and a good part of the over 35 crowd couldn’t concern themselves with that stuff.&lt;br /&gt;
I divide the country into 28% hard left, 28% hard right and the 44% malleable middle make up the rest. Those people don’t have a clue about what’s happened in their name. If they were required to study EW cliff notes about the torture, my bet is close to 40% out of the 44% would strongly object to crime without the time. That’s why if you did a study group showing the pictures, President Obama is extra legally with holding, about 30% would not object to those methods. The path to the court house goes though the public school house, so school those who don’t know the extremes of the torture.&lt;br /&gt;
I don’t speak of the public will rather the truth will out…&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>May I beg to differ, if you please.<br />
First the under 35 crowd understands little about Nuremburg and a good part of the over 35 crowd couldn’t concern themselves with that stuff.<br />
I divide the country into 28% hard left, 28% hard right and the 44% malleable middle make up the rest. Those people don’t have a clue about what’s happened in their name. If they were required to study EW cliff notes about the torture, my bet is close to 40% out of the 44% would strongly object to crime without the time. That’s why if you did a study group showing the pictures, President Obama is extra legally with holding, about 30% would not object to those methods. The path to the court house goes though the public school house, so school those who don’t know the extremes of the torture.<br />
I don’t speak of the public will rather the truth will out…</p>
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		<title>By: Elliott</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191772</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:09:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191772</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;as an aside, Greenwald is hosting &lt;a href=&quot;http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/8509&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;today’s Book Salon&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>as an aside, Greenwald is hosting <a href="http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/8509" rel="nofollow">today’s Book Salon</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: covered</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191771</link>
		<dc:creator>covered</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/26/law-and-order-versus-john-yoo/#comment-191771</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Greenwald over at salon has written extensively about this. I think letting em walk undermines the rule of law in this country and just asks for it to happen again. Just like Iran-Contra paved the way for this. I was making the Nuremberg argument to a neo-con of the WWII era recently and she just belligerently yelled out, “I don’t know anything about any Nuremberg!” which, of course, was a complete lie (surprise!) For you and me, it may be a non-starter, but the will you speak of is called political will. Judging by what my eyes and ears tell me, the country doesn’t have that political will right now. That doesn’t mean it can’t change. What might force the issue is for Rummy, Condi or one of the Office of Special Plans types to get arrested for war crimes in say, Spain.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greenwald over at salon has written extensively about this. I think letting em walk undermines the rule of law in this country and just asks for it to happen again. Just like Iran-Contra paved the way for this. I was making the Nuremberg argument to a neo-con of the WWII era recently and she just belligerently yelled out, “I don’t know anything about any Nuremberg!” which, of course, was a complete lie (surprise!) For you and me, it may be a non-starter, but the will you speak of is called political will. Judging by what my eyes and ears tell me, the country doesn’t have that political will right now. That doesn’t mean it can’t change. What might force the issue is for Rummy, Condi or one of the Office of Special Plans types to get arrested for war crimes in say, Spain.</p>
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