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	<title>Comments on: Obama&#8217;s New State Secrets Policy Is Reaffirmation Of Bush&#8217;s Policy</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/</link>
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		<title>By: Jkat</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/#comment-191178</link>
		<dc:creator>Jkat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 06:52:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;what spines ??&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what spines ??</p>
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		<title>By: Nell</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/#comment-191159</link>
		<dc:creator>Nell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Like the supposed loophole for tortures that cause enormous pain:  if they weren’t applied with the &lt;i&gt;intention&lt;/i&gt; and purpose of causing great pain, then okey dokey.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This is an effort to pre-empt legislation. And, I fervently hope, it’s an unsuccessful effort.  In fact, I hope the transparent effort to pre-empt just stiffens the spines of the Congressional advocates.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like the supposed loophole for tortures that cause enormous pain:  if they weren’t applied with the <i>intention</i> and purpose of causing great pain, then okey dokey.</p>
<p>This is an effort to pre-empt legislation. And, I fervently hope, it’s an unsuccessful effort.  In fact, I hope the transparent effort to pre-empt just stiffens the spines of the Congressional advocates.</p>
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		<title>By: OccasionalObserver</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/#comment-191158</link>
		<dc:creator>OccasionalObserver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;I have to agree. The fact pattern in &lt;em&gt;al-Haramain&lt;/em&gt; has some of the trappings of the proceedings before Judge John J. Sirica around the bungled Watergate break-in. In &lt;em&gt;al-Haramain&lt;/em&gt; the feds told the plaintiff they were spying on him, in writing, then blamed him for having the writing, then tried to cleanse the effective memory banks of the lawyers on the case. It’s that bizarre.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Plaintiff’s end-run around this kafkaesque gambit to this point has, with the help of Judge Vaughan Walker, been masterful. It’s also been comical, much as parts of Watergate were. The minuet exposes the state secrets privilege for the farce it is, or can be. Here it’s every bit as cynical as Nixon’s claims of executive privilege. Many state secrets cases are weird, but here the embarrassment is already out. It’s like watching someone trying to stuff drugs back into his pocket with the police looking him straight in the eye, then asking them where their search warrant is with a “Who, me?” look on his face for good measure. But there’s also a world of evil here, as bmaz notes.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If the 2009 model of the doctrine is being rolled out for &lt;em&gt;al-Haramain&lt;/em&gt; it’ll be like the last gasp of executive privilege in Watergate. Judge Walker has had the stamina of Judge Sirica, whose persistence brought out Richard Nixon’s shenanigans. And he’s vetted his procedures through the Ninth Circuit. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If the government wants to take this all the way up, the heat will be on SCOTUS because so much of this will be new to the public. The juicy facts will hit hard. That’s the flip side of its having stayed below the radar to this point. Wait till Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert sic their writers on this case.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’m betting on &lt;em&gt;al-Haramain.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree. The fact pattern in <em>al-Haramain</em> has some of the trappings of the proceedings before Judge John J. Sirica around the bungled Watergate break-in. In <em>al-Haramain</em> the feds told the plaintiff they were spying on him, in writing, then blamed him for having the writing, then tried to cleanse the effective memory banks of the lawyers on the case. It’s that bizarre.</p>
<p>Plaintiff’s end-run around this kafkaesque gambit to this point has, with the help of Judge Vaughan Walker, been masterful. It’s also been comical, much as parts of Watergate were. The minuet exposes the state secrets privilege for the farce it is, or can be. Here it’s every bit as cynical as Nixon’s claims of executive privilege. Many state secrets cases are weird, but here the embarrassment is already out. It’s like watching someone trying to stuff drugs back into his pocket with the police looking him straight in the eye, then asking them where their search warrant is with a “Who, me?” look on his face for good measure. But there’s also a world of evil here, as bmaz notes.</p>
<p>If the 2009 model of the doctrine is being rolled out for <em>al-Haramain</em> it’ll be like the last gasp of executive privilege in Watergate. Judge Walker has had the stamina of Judge Sirica, whose persistence brought out Richard Nixon’s shenanigans. And he’s vetted his procedures through the Ninth Circuit. </p>
<p>If the government wants to take this all the way up, the heat will be on SCOTUS because so much of this will be new to the public. The juicy facts will hit hard. That’s the flip side of its having stayed below the radar to this point. Wait till Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert sic their writers on this case.</p>
<p>I’m betting on <em>al-Haramain.</em></p>
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		<title>By: bobschacht</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/#comment-191146</link>
		<dc:creator>bobschacht</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;But then the big reason to do THAT is bc Horn would be remanded to Lambreth, who would rule against the government, who would then appeal to SCOTUS, who would then rewrite state secrets that way.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Is that a certified EW prediction, or a fear?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Bob in AZ&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But then the big reason to do THAT is bc Horn would be remanded to Lambreth, who would rule against the government, who would then appeal to SCOTUS, who would then rewrite state secrets that way.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Is that a certified EW prediction, or a fear?</p>
<p>Bob in AZ</p>
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		<title>By: R.H. Green</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/#comment-191120</link>
		<dc:creator>R.H. Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/#comment-191120</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It seems farsical that even if a secrets claim does in fact coceal wrongdoing, it could be argued that such concealment was not the intended purpose of the claim, and in the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary…well, too bad.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems farsical that even if a secrets claim does in fact coceal wrongdoing, it could be argued that such concealment was not the intended purpose of the claim, and in the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary…well, too bad.</p>
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		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/#comment-191117</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/#comment-191117</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Obama has built his career on continuity, on working within whatever existing system he found himself within: Chicago ward and city politics; Columbia and Harvard academic life; conservative University of Chicago academic life; Illinois and federal legislatures and now the White House.  He doesn’t do change, except within the confines of electioneering slogans.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;His state secrets policy, which, like torture policy, sounds better when described in the original German, simply continues whatever Obama inherited.  As does Shrub with the 150 years of trust funds he will one day inherit, he wants to keep it all intact because that’s what works for him.  He’s president, after all, but he’s no Kennedy, let alone a supremely confident FDR or TR; he’s more like Ike, but with less candor.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Obama does respond to political pressure.  He’s comfortable accepting what comes from the right, but glad-hands what comes from the left, then washes his hands.  (Ask Dawn Johnsen.)  As he admits to Europeans, he’s not a socialist and no one in Europe or outside a Fox studio would mistake him for one.  He’s a center-right politician and a reactionary, except when it comes to his own career and nuclear family.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Practical pressure, political, legal and news media pressure, he will respond to.  That’s why he and Rahm are so anxious that liberals stop applying it.  Thank you, bmaz, EW and Jane for turning a deaf ear to such pleas.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obama has built his career on continuity, on working within whatever existing system he found himself within: Chicago ward and city politics; Columbia and Harvard academic life; conservative University of Chicago academic life; Illinois and federal legislatures and now the White House.  He doesn’t do change, except within the confines of electioneering slogans.</p>
<p>His state secrets policy, which, like torture policy, sounds better when described in the original German, simply continues whatever Obama inherited.  As does Shrub with the 150 years of trust funds he will one day inherit, he wants to keep it all intact because that’s what works for him.  He’s president, after all, but he’s no Kennedy, let alone a supremely confident FDR or TR; he’s more like Ike, but with less candor.  </p>
<p>Obama does respond to political pressure.  He’s comfortable accepting what comes from the right, but glad-hands what comes from the left, then washes his hands.  (Ask Dawn Johnsen.)  As he admits to Europeans, he’s not a socialist and no one in Europe or outside a Fox studio would mistake him for one.  He’s a center-right politician and a reactionary, except when it comes to his own career and nuclear family.  </p>
<p>Practical pressure, political, legal and news media pressure, he will respond to.  That’s why he and Rahm are so anxious that liberals stop applying it.  Thank you, bmaz, EW and Jane for turning a deaf ear to such pleas.</p>
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		<title>By: R.H. Green</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/#comment-191115</link>
		<dc:creator>R.H. Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:43:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/#comment-191115</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;bmaz,&lt;br /&gt;
 Regarding the provision in the new policy that calls for rejection of secrets claims that are motivated by attempts to conceal wrongdoing, it would appear to this eye that such a rejection could only occur after an investigation is conducted to determine what the facts are with respect to such motivation. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that this new policy was being presented before Walker this morning, and either the intelligence agency is being given a on OK to make secrets claims, or an investigatio”underway” would provide an excuse to delay the court proceedings until such a determination can be made.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bmaz,<br />
 Regarding the provision in the new policy that calls for rejection of secrets claims that are motivated by attempts to conceal wrongdoing, it would appear to this eye that such a rejection could only occur after an investigation is conducted to determine what the facts are with respect to such motivation. </p>
<p>It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that this new policy was being presented before Walker this morning, and either the intelligence agency is being given a on OK to make secrets claims, or an investigatio”underway” would provide an excuse to delay the court proceedings until such a determination can be made.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/#comment-191113</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/#comment-191113</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for highlighting this.  I read the NYT article last night and it seemed to me that there was much less there than met the eye.  The timing with al Haramain is a great catch.  There is also the angle suggested in the article that this might preempt legislation that is in Congress.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for highlighting this.  I read the NYT article last night and it seemed to me that there was much less there than met the eye.  The timing with al Haramain is a great catch.  There is also the angle suggested in the article that this might preempt legislation that is in Congress.</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/#comment-191111</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:02:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/#comment-191111</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;No, at least select leadership had to know ahead of time.  Your example of the OLC is inapposite because Yoo was not having to go into a court to argue.  There is simply a different structure and consideration involved when the decision is made to send the claim into a court.  Is it possible that people like Addington, Aexander, Hayden, whoever played a little fast and loose with the DOJ?  Yes. But the DOJ could fight back and stop that any time by refusing to go forth in court or threatening to pull pleadings.  They have always had the power they are supposedly being given by the “new policy”.  And they can still be gamed under the “new policy” if they want to turn their heads as they previously have.  There is simply nothing new that is particularly compelling or useful to my eyes.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, at least select leadership had to know ahead of time.  Your example of the OLC is inapposite because Yoo was not having to go into a court to argue.  There is simply a different structure and consideration involved when the decision is made to send the claim into a court.  Is it possible that people like Addington, Aexander, Hayden, whoever played a little fast and loose with the DOJ?  Yes. But the DOJ could fight back and stop that any time by refusing to go forth in court or threatening to pull pleadings.  They have always had the power they are supposedly being given by the “new policy”.  And they can still be gamed under the “new policy” if they want to turn their heads as they previously have.  There is simply nothing new that is particularly compelling or useful to my eyes.</p>
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		<title>By: Peterr</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/23/obamas-new-state-secrets-policy-is-reaffirmation-of-bushs-policy/#comment-191109</link>
		<dc:creator>Peterr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Do you mean that DOJ Main must have had before-the-fact and with-the-blessing-of knowledge, or simply after-the-fact knowledge? &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If it’s the latter, and they disagree with the decision, they’ve got the ugly choice of swallowing hard and going along with it or reversing the filings and representations made in court. Neither would be palatable, but I’d guess that the former would win out every time with BushCo.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;For me, it boils down to this: if Addington inserted himself into the work of OLC via Yoo et al., going around the AG, why do you think he would hesitate for a moment to do the same elsewhere at DOJ? They didn’t hesitate to overrule doctor’s “no visitors” orders at Ashcroft’s hospital bedside, nor Ashcroft’s own wishes in naming Comey as Acting AG. Why would they be filled with such respect for the AG in these cases so as to get him on board before the fact?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you mean that DOJ Main must have had before-the-fact and with-the-blessing-of knowledge, or simply after-the-fact knowledge? </p>
<p>If it’s the latter, and they disagree with the decision, they’ve got the ugly choice of swallowing hard and going along with it or reversing the filings and representations made in court. Neither would be palatable, but I’d guess that the former would win out every time with BushCo.</p>
<p>For me, it boils down to this: if Addington inserted himself into the work of OLC via Yoo et al., going around the AG, why do you think he would hesitate for a moment to do the same elsewhere at DOJ? They didn’t hesitate to overrule doctor’s “no visitors” orders at Ashcroft’s hospital bedside, nor Ashcroft’s own wishes in naming Comey as Acting AG. Why would they be filled with such respect for the AG in these cases so as to get him on board before the fact?</p>
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