<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Which 2003 Document Was Hayden Talking About?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:48:32 -0500</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: powwow</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188848</link>
		<dc:creator>powwow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 04:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188848</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Mea culpa.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I believed what I read, and knew Reid was capable, after seeing him fawningly lavish praise on McCrystal (among others of that ilk), but I was in fact misinformed.  At least, according to &lt;a href=&quot;http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=2009_record&amp;page=S9190&amp;position=all&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Wednesday’s&lt;/b&gt; &lt;i&gt;Congressional Record&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Mr. DURBIN. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that the Record reflect that &lt;b&gt;the appointment of GEN Michael Hayden to the Public Interest Declassification Board made during the adjournment of the Senate was made by the &lt;i&gt;Republican leader&lt;/i&gt; rather than the &lt;i&gt;majority&lt;/i&gt; leader&lt;/b&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;   The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without objection, it is so ordered.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So please substitute Senate &lt;b&gt;Minority&lt;/b&gt; Leader &lt;b&gt;“Mitch McConnell”&lt;/b&gt; wherever Senate Majority Leader “Harry Reid” appears in my comment at 22.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Sorry to pass the misinformation along.  Apologies to all.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;On another note, with a remarkable &lt;b&gt;lack&lt;/b&gt; of noticeable “waste” of floor time, the &lt;a href=&quot;http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=2009_record&amp;page=S9173&amp;position=all&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;cloture&lt;/b&gt; vote&lt;/a&gt; on &lt;b&gt;Cass Sunstein’s&lt;/b&gt; nomination [63-35, Wednesday, with Lincoln, Pryor and Webb voting No, and Lieberman, Collins, Hatch, Gregg, Lugar, Snowe &amp; Voinovich voting Yes], followed by the vote to confirm - due Thursday night, at the latest - quickly flew through the Senate this week (Reid filed a cloture motion on Sunstein’s nomination just before the recess).&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mea culpa.</p>
<p>I believed what I read, and knew Reid was capable, after seeing him fawningly lavish praise on McCrystal (among others of that ilk), but I was in fact misinformed.  At least, according to <a href="http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=2009_record&amp;page=S9190&amp;position=all" rel="nofollow"><b>Wednesday’s</b> <i>Congressional Record</i></a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Mr. DURBIN. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that the Record reflect that <b>the appointment of GEN Michael Hayden to the Public Interest Declassification Board made during the adjournment of the Senate was made by the <i>Republican leader</i> rather than the <i>majority</i> leader</b>.</p>
<p>   The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without objection, it is so ordered.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>So please substitute Senate <b>Minority</b> Leader <b>“Mitch McConnell”</b> wherever Senate Majority Leader “Harry Reid” appears in my comment at 22.  </p>
<p>Sorry to pass the misinformation along.  Apologies to all.</p>
<p>On another note, with a remarkable <b>lack</b> of noticeable “waste” of floor time, the <a href="http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=2009_record&amp;page=S9173&amp;position=all" rel="nofollow"><b>cloture</b> vote</a> on <b>Cass Sunstein’s</b> nomination [63-35, Wednesday, with Lincoln, Pryor and Webb voting No, and Lieberman, Collins, Hatch, Gregg, Lugar, Snowe &amp; Voinovich voting Yes], followed by the vote to confirm &#8211; due Thursday night, at the latest &#8211; quickly flew through the Senate this week (Reid filed a cloture motion on Sunstein’s nomination just before the recess).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tryggth</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188807</link>
		<dc:creator>tryggth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 02:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188807</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Off topic a bit…&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’m wondering (now that our friend SKIMPY has been clearing his or her throat) whether there was a &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Special_Operations_Command&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;JSOC&lt;/a&gt; instructing &lt;a href=&quot;http://voices.washingtonpost.com/cheney/chapters/chapter_1/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Military Order&lt;/a&gt; parallel to the civilian CIA institution authorizations. From the linked article I’m guessing no. But it seems such an obvious route to go for the unitary executive - I’m just left puzzled.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Off topic a bit…</p>
<p>I’m wondering (now that our friend SKIMPY has been clearing his or her throat) whether there was a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Special_Operations_Command" rel="nofollow">JSOC</a> instructing <a href="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/cheney/chapters/chapter_1/" rel="nofollow">Military Order</a> parallel to the civilian CIA institution authorizations. From the linked article I’m guessing no. But it seems such an obvious route to go for the unitary executive &#8211; I’m just left puzzled.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188624</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:29:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188624</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;If you hadn’t seen it already, rmadelson had a good comment in a thread below&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/no-one-saw-the-bybee-one-memo-either/#comment-188499&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://emptywheel.firedoglake......ent-188499&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;He put it very nicely - that much of what Holder et al are trying to do, trying to pull off in the torture cases, is to arbitrarily take a political defense and try layering it over a real defense (that exists, but for which the defendants can’t meet the standards) and how, if ANYTHING ends up in real litigation, it just isn’t going to work - courts don’t easily (these days, who knows) buy into the made up defense that doesn’t have a model instruction and/or a solid case law grounding. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The different setting of your case applies to the same general concept - when they start trying to have selective waivers and good faith arguments that can’t work (nmvoiceofreason made the observation about attys involved in the crimes - as with the attys drafting the proxies - not being able to be used as a reliance source).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In addition to all being a huge abuse of office, and propagating even more of a culture of corruption, cronyism and politicized prosecutions and even more politicized non-prosecutions (with conspiracies to run out statutes while evidence is destroyed)  - the whole thing falls apart if anything gets to a court (as bmaz has pointed out over and over).&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you hadn’t seen it already, rmadelson had a good comment in a thread below<br /><a href="http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/no-one-saw-the-bybee-one-memo-either/#comment-188499" rel="nofollow">http://emptywheel.firedoglake&#8230;&#8230;ent-188499</a></p>
<p>He put it very nicely &#8211; that much of what Holder et al are trying to do, trying to pull off in the torture cases, is to arbitrarily take a political defense and try layering it over a real defense (that exists, but for which the defendants can’t meet the standards) and how, if ANYTHING ends up in real litigation, it just isn’t going to work &#8211; courts don’t easily (these days, who knows) buy into the made up defense that doesn’t have a model instruction and/or a solid case law grounding. </p>
<p>The different setting of your case applies to the same general concept &#8211; when they start trying to have selective waivers and good faith arguments that can’t work (nmvoiceofreason made the observation about attys involved in the crimes &#8211; as with the attys drafting the proxies &#8211; not being able to be used as a reliance source).</p>
<p>In addition to all being a huge abuse of office, and propagating even more of a culture of corruption, cronyism and politicized prosecutions and even more politicized non-prosecutions (with conspiracies to run out statutes while evidence is destroyed)  &#8211; the whole thing falls apart if anything gets to a court (as bmaz has pointed out over and over).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188622</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:25:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188622</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The reason I don’t–and I thought about it–is because, again, you’d have 2004 listed as well, bc the Levin memo arguably authorizes waterboarding as well.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;By specifying 2005 and not 2004, Hayden appears to be specifying those memos that specifically name waterboarding.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason I don’t–and I thought about it–is because, again, you’d have 2004 listed as well, bc the Levin memo arguably authorizes waterboarding as well.</p>
<p>By specifying 2005 and not 2004, Hayden appears to be specifying those memos that specifically name waterboarding.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188616</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:19:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188616</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Unbelievable.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Oh, wait.  Harry Reid - who helped make sure the MCA passed and sent Dodd and Leahy off into the weeds when they tried to coordinate with him over it.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;@23 - it’s not like judges are making the decisions in vacuums either.  The problem is that the prosecutorial mechanism, the DOJ, is corrupt and it won’t go after its own.  There’s no real difference than having prosecutors bought off, when DOJ allows politics and personal relationships to exclude a subset of criminals - including criminals conspiring to the commission of violent crimes.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;@28 - why am I not surprised?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unbelievable.</p>
<p>Oh, wait.  Harry Reid &#8211; who helped make sure the MCA passed and sent Dodd and Leahy off into the weeds when they tried to coordinate with him over it.  </p>
<p>@23 &#8211; it’s not like judges are making the decisions in vacuums either.  The problem is that the prosecutorial mechanism, the DOJ, is corrupt and it won’t go after its own.  There’s no real difference than having prosecutors bought off, when DOJ allows politics and personal relationships to exclude a subset of criminals &#8211; including criminals conspiring to the commission of violent crimes.  </p>
<p>@28 &#8211; why am I not surprised?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: BayStateLibrul</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188608</link>
		<dc:creator>BayStateLibrul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:46:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188608</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for that pic. That’s my Alma Mater&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that pic. That’s my Alma Mater</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: BayStateLibrul</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188607</link>
		<dc:creator>BayStateLibrul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:41:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188607</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Shill or Card…&lt;br /&gt;
In any case, they will round up about 10% of the vote.&lt;br /&gt;
They both suck.&lt;br /&gt;
There is only one party, unlike Arizona (hint: move to the Northeast)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shill or Card…<br />
In any case, they will round up about 10% of the vote.<br />
They both suck.<br />
There is only one party, unlike Arizona (hint: move to the Northeast)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: alabama</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188605</link>
		<dc:creator>alabama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 14:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188605</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;We’ve learned from your work that these people are careless.  They make elementary mistakes, dumb blunders.  But they aren’t obviously stupid, they have experience with paper trails, and they aren’t always careless. They don’t take care, where torture is concerned, because they have no need to care (or so they clearly believe).  They have long been convinced that the arm of the law is not nearly long enough to touch them.  But for how long?  When did this start?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’d date this particular flood of sloppiness from the days of Reagan and Casey–almost thirty years ago, spanning an entire generation of bureaucrats (always assuming, perhaps in error, that the Church Committee report caused a measure of nervousness among the folks involved in Operation Phoenix and the like).  If so, it may take another thirty years–another generation–to make these people fear the law.  This means that the generation born around 1980 will have apply constant pressure, such that the succeeding generation, born around 2010, will know how to function in lawful ways.  Call it, in the best of circumstances, a turn-around time of sixty years. But this is not as long as it sounds:  the civil rights movement took a century to gather steam, and the ACLU, of such importance to this particular project, was only founded in 1920.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We’ve learned from your work that these people are careless.  They make elementary mistakes, dumb blunders.  But they aren’t obviously stupid, they have experience with paper trails, and they aren’t always careless. They don’t take care, where torture is concerned, because they have no need to care (or so they clearly believe).  They have long been convinced that the arm of the law is not nearly long enough to touch them.  But for how long?  When did this start?</p>
<p>I’d date this particular flood of sloppiness from the days of Reagan and Casey–almost thirty years ago, spanning an entire generation of bureaucrats (always assuming, perhaps in error, that the Church Committee report caused a measure of nervousness among the folks involved in Operation Phoenix and the like).  If so, it may take another thirty years–another generation–to make these people fear the law.  This means that the generation born around 1980 will have apply constant pressure, such that the succeeding generation, born around 2010, will know how to function in lawful ways.  Call it, in the best of circumstances, a turn-around time of sixty years. But this is not as long as it sounds:  the civil rights movement took a century to gather steam, and the ACLU, of such importance to this particular project, was only founded in 1920.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: WilliamOckham</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188604</link>
		<dc:creator>WilliamOckham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 13:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188604</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The other way to interpret Hayden’s statement is to assume he was talking about the OLC’s memo for the DOD in March 2003. Hayden was still in the DOD at that time. Although the memo doesn’t specifically mention waterboarding, it arguably authorizes that and anything else.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The other way to interpret Hayden’s statement is to assume he was talking about the OLC’s memo for the DOD in March 2003. Hayden was still in the DOD at that time. Although the memo doesn’t specifically mention waterboarding, it arguably authorizes that and anything else.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: skdadl</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188601</link>
		<dc:creator>skdadl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/09/which-2003-document-was-hayden-talking-about/#comment-188601</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Amazing — that belongs in a newspaper feature called Your Daily Insult.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amazing — that belongs in a newspaper feature called Your Daily Insult.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Dynamic page generated in 0.232 seconds. -->
<!-- Cached page generated by WP-Super-Cache on 2012-02-17 15:28:15 -->

