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	<title>Comments on: Death Panels From Bad Legislation</title>
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		<title>By: PJEvans</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-181019</link>
		<dc:creator>PJEvans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 14:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-181019</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The last guy who died on death row in CA died of &lt;em&gt;old age&lt;/em&gt;. This week. We pay a lot to keep them locked up until they die, anyway, but I suspect that simply having a ‘life without parole’ section in a prison would be less expensive than having a ‘death row’.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The last guy who died on death row in CA died of <em>old age</em>. This week. We pay a lot to keep them locked up until they die, anyway, but I suspect that simply having a ‘life without parole’ section in a prison would be less expensive than having a ‘death row’.</p>
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		<title>By: bpollen</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-181015</link>
		<dc:creator>bpollen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 08:48:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-181015</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;According to available evidence, Ed Gein was probably guilty of *1* murder (no witnesses to the event, hence no proof.)  He was suspected in other murders, including his mother and brother. Once again, no prooof. So, though Gein has been a popular bogeyman for decades, he is not known to be a serial killer. (Interestingly enough, I had an acquaintance who was once in the same psychiatric hospital. He was described to me as a sad old man suffering from dementia.)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;IMHO, the death of even ONE innocent person invalidates any benefit to be gained by state-sanctioned murder. And the likelihood  of our having executed innocent men or women is much greater than the likelihood that you (or I) would be personally harmed by anyone who got life without parole as opposed to the death penalty.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;When you consider that some courts have ruled that DNA evidence proving that someone else is guilty of a crime does not mean that the innocent person incarcerated must necessarily have his conviction vacated, or even be allowed parole, the presumption of innocence is simply rhetoric.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to available evidence, Ed Gein was probably guilty of *1* murder (no witnesses to the event, hence no proof.)  He was suspected in other murders, including his mother and brother. Once again, no prooof. So, though Gein has been a popular bogeyman for decades, he is not known to be a serial killer. (Interestingly enough, I had an acquaintance who was once in the same psychiatric hospital. He was described to me as a sad old man suffering from dementia.)</p>
<p>IMHO, the death of even ONE innocent person invalidates any benefit to be gained by state-sanctioned murder. And the likelihood  of our having executed innocent men or women is much greater than the likelihood that you (or I) would be personally harmed by anyone who got life without parole as opposed to the death penalty.</p>
<p>When you consider that some courts have ruled that DNA evidence proving that someone else is guilty of a crime does not mean that the innocent person incarcerated must necessarily have his conviction vacated, or even be allowed parole, the presumption of innocence is simply rhetoric.</p>
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		<title>By: T-Bear</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-181013</link>
		<dc:creator>T-Bear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 08:23:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-181013</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;(edit) A brilliant post - as usual.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And education. … the functional illiteracy rate … is also a good predictor in society over all for future criminal behavior and illiteracy rate is actually used as a predictor of future prison needs and budgeting here.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If this be true, Mexico and Canada may start insisting upon the completion of the security walls at the borders, for &lt;strong&gt;their&lt;/strong&gt; security. Got to keep the inmates in. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;IIRC the illiteracy rate was about 10% and the functional illiteracy rate was about 10% and from personal observation there is an effective illiteracy rate of another 20% (observations taken a decade and a half ago). From reports emanating from the homeland, those rates are increasing geometrically as the educational system fails to educate. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What gets out from the corporate media, their lineup of babbling heads et al, and the circus attending public meetings on the health (insurance) care, a 60% effective illiteracy rate is not out of the question. How does this read in your predictor of future prison needs?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Illiteracy here is the inability to read and derive meaning from printed words: functionally illiterate is the incapacity to read and derive meaning from printed words without great effort: effective illiteracy is the failure to make an effort to read and derive meaning from printed word.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(edit) A brilliant post &#8211; as usual.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>And education. … the functional illiteracy rate … is also a good predictor in society over all for future criminal behavior and illiteracy rate is actually used as a predictor of future prison needs and budgeting here.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>If this be true, Mexico and Canada may start insisting upon the completion of the security walls at the borders, for <strong>their</strong> security. Got to keep the inmates in. </p>
<p>IIRC the illiteracy rate was about 10% and the functional illiteracy rate was about 10% and from personal observation there is an effective illiteracy rate of another 20% (observations taken a decade and a half ago). From reports emanating from the homeland, those rates are increasing geometrically as the educational system fails to educate. </p>
<p>What gets out from the corporate media, their lineup of babbling heads et al, and the circus attending public meetings on the health (insurance) care, a 60% effective illiteracy rate is not out of the question. How does this read in your predictor of future prison needs?</p>
<p>Illiteracy here is the inability to read and derive meaning from printed words: functionally illiterate is the incapacity to read and derive meaning from printed words without great effort: effective illiteracy is the failure to make an effort to read and derive meaning from printed word.</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-181009</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 03:50:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks John.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks John.</p>
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		<title>By: fatster</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-181007</link>
		<dc:creator>fatster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 03:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;I agree with you, RevBev, but I must point to yet one more contradiction: most of us who are opposed to the death penalty also support a woman’s right to be in charge of her body, including the right to choose abortion.  Such moral quandaries!  I appreciate the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/tenzin-gyatzo.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;gentle approach&lt;/a&gt; that making a choice such as abortion should be viewed with compassion.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you, RevBev, but I must point to yet one more contradiction: most of us who are opposed to the death penalty also support a woman’s right to be in charge of her body, including the right to choose abortion.  Such moral quandaries!  I appreciate the <a href="http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/tenzin-gyatzo.html" rel="nofollow">gentle approach</a> that making a choice such as abortion should be viewed with compassion.</p>
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		<title>By: phred</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-181005</link>
		<dc:creator>phred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 03:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Let’s take a hypothetical. Ed Gein, for example, a serial killer, or Ted Bundy, also a serial killer. Why should we not kill them? What’s the justification?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Ummm, because we are better than they are?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This is a trick question right?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Let’s take a hypothetical. Ed Gein, for example, a serial killer, or Ted Bundy, also a serial killer. Why should we not kill them? What’s the justification?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Ummm, because we are better than they are?</p>
<p>This is a trick question right?</p>
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		<title>By: john in sacramento</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-181002</link>
		<dc:creator>john in sacramento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 01:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-181002</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;From &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090507/A_OPINION01/905070313/-1/A_OPINION&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the article&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;The American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California developed those shocking numbers. The ACLU claims that executing all those on death row would cost about $4 billion more than if they had just been given life without the possibility of parole.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Which is probably from the ACLU-NC’s page &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.aclunc.org/issues/criminal_justice/death_penalty/index.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From <a href="http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090507/A_OPINION01/905070313/-1/A_OPINION" rel="nofollow">the article</a></p>
<blockquote><p>The American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California developed those shocking numbers. The ACLU claims that executing all those on death row would cost about $4 billion more than if they had just been given life without the possibility of parole.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Which is probably from the ACLU-NC’s page <a href="http://www.aclunc.org/issues/criminal_justice/death_penalty/index.shtml" rel="nofollow">here</a></p>
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		<title>By: john in sacramento</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-181001</link>
		<dc:creator>john in sacramento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 01:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-181001</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Let me see if the $4b figure is in the link …&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me see if the $4b figure is in the link …</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-181000</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 01:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;If the case is truly proved beyond a reasonable doubt, and I am not talking about the jury verdict (trust me juries convict innocent people every day) but effectively all doubt - then I do not have a moral problem with it.  But there has to be full exhaustion of appeals and Habeas challenges to insure any doubt has been addressed.  Some defendants, like Banzai Bob Vickers I described and linked to earlier, would as soon be executed.  I have no absolute problem with those cases. I do not like the state killing people; but I am not an absolutist on that.  But quite frankly, it is the cost that is the clincher for me.  It is simply a waste of money and I cannot fathom the thought of an innocent man being executed.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the case is truly proved beyond a reasonable doubt, and I am not talking about the jury verdict (trust me juries convict innocent people every day) but effectively all doubt &#8211; then I do not have a moral problem with it.  But there has to be full exhaustion of appeals and Habeas challenges to insure any doubt has been addressed.  Some defendants, like Banzai Bob Vickers I described and linked to earlier, would as soon be executed.  I have no absolute problem with those cases. I do not like the state killing people; but I am not an absolutist on that.  But quite frankly, it is the cost that is the clincher for me.  It is simply a waste of money and I cannot fathom the thought of an innocent man being executed.</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-180998</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 01:34:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/death-panels-from-bad-legislation/#comment-180998</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;John, thanks, exactly the kind of argument I was making.  Can you tell us what time period the $4 billion is spread over?  That isn’t in one year is it?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, thanks, exactly the kind of argument I was making.  Can you tell us what time period the $4 billion is spread over?  That isn’t in one year is it?</p>
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