Goddamn did DOJ bring the stupid in their response to CREW’s brief in its Cheney interview FOIA.
745 days ago, George Bush commuted Scooter Libby’s sentence, thereby ensuring that Scooter Libby would not testify about whether–as all the evidence indicated–Dick Cheney had ordered him to leak Valerie Wilson’s identity to Judy Miller. 745 days ago, for all intents and purposes, the investigation of Dick Cheney’s involvement in outing a CIA officer ended in the dead end of Scooter Libby’s successful criminal obstruction of justice.
Yet DOJ describes CREW’s efforts to get Cheney’s interview report via FOIA to be an attempt to get "a ruling that would make public interview reports of high ranking White House officials immediately upon the conclusion of the relevant investigation." For the whizzes in DOJ, I guess, 745 days equates to "immediate."
But that’s not the only heap of stupid they bring in this filing.
Next, these whizzes argue that if DOJ turns over Cheney’s interview, then senior White House officials will no longer provide criminal investigators a "full account of relevant events."
This argument, however, is ultimately immaterial because, while in some circumstances public pressure could possibly force a White House official to sit down for an interview, it cannot ensure that that official will be willing “to provide law enforcement officials with a full account of relevant events,”
Dudes! Let me tell you a secret about this case!! It ended in a successful perjury and obstruction of justice prosecution that revealed–among other things–that convicted felon Scooter Libby had worked out a cover story with Dick Cheney before Libby first testified to the FBI! Had Cheney given a "full account of relevant events," then Scooter Libby probably wouldn’t have been prosecuted successfully (or, at the least, Judy Miller wouldn’t have had to testify or Cheney would have been charged with obstruction himself).
Next, DOJ claims that a precedent in which the release of a summary of deliberations was found not to constitute a waiver over the source documents of that deliberation applies here, in which key source documents have already been released, but which wouldn’t–DOJ argues–constitute a waiver for the interview report which is fundamentally a summary. For DOJ, a precedent finding that a summary doesn’t equal source is the same as a source not equaling a summary.
The D.C. Circuit held that the release of the report did not constitute a waiver of privilege and that the White House could retain privilege over all documents that had not specifically been provided to individuals outside the government. Id. at 741. Similarly here, the fact that DOJ has released certain deliberative material into the public domain as part of the prosecution of I. Lewis Libby does not waive privilege over other, unreleased, documents that may contain material relating to the same deliberations.
Which is all the more stupid given that Cheney’s interview report is not the deliberation itself (that is, it’s not like he was discussing potential policies that Fitz ought to introduce into investigating Vice Presidents), and–more importantly–the content of this very interview was already released by Dick Cheney’s lawyer! DOJ is effectively arguing that the precedent finding that a summary does not equal source is the same as summaryA does not equal summaryA.
Then, these instruments of stupid at DOJ dismiss the extensive list that CREW submitted of prior examples where interview reports and related documents have been released by appealing to the "case-specific factors" of this case.
Plaintiff seems to suggest that the existence of this material within the public domain undercuts DOJ’s position that the release of the disputed material would deter or diminish future cooperation by senior White House officials such as the President and Vice President. It does not.
It is not DOJ’s contention that interview reports of White House officials can never be released without impairing law enforcement interests. Rather, the predictive judgment as to whether release could deter future needed cooperation by senior White House officials depends on case-specific factors such as how high-ranking the official was, whether he or she or the President he or she served was in office at the time of the interview, and the period of time that has elapsed since the individual has left office. Cf. Breuer Decl. ¶ 5 (noting the particular deterrent to cooperation that could exist if an official “believe[s] that the information provided could become public while the official is still in office”). The facts in the instant case warrant non-disclosure: the interviewee was the then-sitting Vice President of the United States and disclosure was initially sought while he was in office and is sought now only months after he left office. [my emphasis]
First of all, that reference there, in the middle of the second paragraph, that promises "case-specific factors"? Here’s what it says:
In addition, as a general rule, a prosecutor cannot tell a White House official how long he or she believes an investigation may last, and the official may thus believe that information provided could become public while the official is still in office. Therefore, if law enforcement interviews of the President, Vice President or other senior White House officials become subject to routine public disclosure, even upon the conclusion of an investigation, there is an increased likelihood that such officials could feel reluctant to participate in voluntary interviews or, if they agree to such voluntary interviews, could decline to answer questions on certain topics.
DOJ has not provided case-specific factors. On the contrary, it has presented one big hypothetical with no specific proof in the least, and even the specifics they repeat–sitting Vice President, disclosure only months after leaving office–are met or exceeded by a slew of examples in the CREW list, starting first and foremost with "Bill Clinton, President."
Indeed, DOJ has been presented with a list of prior examples where high level White House officials have been interviewed while in the White House, and the contents of the interview were released while the high level officials were still in office. DOJ has been presented with evidence, in fact, that "public disclosure" already is "routine"–precisely the circumstances that, they claim, will inhibit cooperation. And their response to that is, "golly, you’ve got to look at the specific facts of the case." But the specific facts in this case–in which Dick Cheney, knowing that, "law enforcement interviews of the President, Vice President or other senior White House officials" already were "subject to routine public disclosure, even upon the conclusion of an investigation," cooperated willingly.
Dick Cheney’s willing cooperation (but not, perhaps, a "full account of relevant events") in this precise case is proof that DOJ’s claim is full of shit! Dick Cheney knew that release of interview contents was the norm, and yet he willingly cooperated without even trying to get any kind of waiver. Dick Cheney’s cooperation proves that prior release will not dissuade cooperation. (Hell, if Ken Starr’s obsession with Bill Clinton’s blow job wasn’t going to inhibit Dick’s cooperation, I don’t know what would.)
(To be fair, DOJ does some impressive back flips to explain why these examples aren’t like this case, including saying that some of them are so old–dating to prior Administrations or investigations in which Cheney personally participated–that the examples are somehow invalid. DOJ would have you believe Cheney slept through Watergate in his office at the White House.)
Jeebus, I hate when people whose salaries my taxes pay produce the stupid at such high volume!!
Hidden under these piles of steaming stupid, however, there is one nugget that explains DOJ’s real worry. In response to the long list of things included in Cheney’s interview that have already been revealed in the public record, apparently, there are some statements that are unlike what has been released in the public record.
Moreover, as a factual matter, the portions of the FBI 302 protected by the deliberative process privilege are not identical to the public domain information submitted by plaintiff, and in several instances, the FBI 302 contains information that is not at all similar to any information found in plaintiff’s submission.
Now, as I’ve explained, there is one claimed item that was never released in the public record (Cheney’s conversation with Condi during leak week) and one item that was referenced but not explained in detail (Cheney’s discussions with Tenet which may have been where he learned of Valerie’s identity). Two items.
So maybe DOJ is trying to protect those two items (I guess I can understand, as the two conversations may reveal that the VP learned of a CIA officer’s identity, then told the National Security Advisor they were going to leak that identity–but that’s the most extreme case imaginable).
But DOJ is not, just, referring to "information that is not at all similar" to information in the public record. It is also trying to hide information that is "not identical to the public domain information."
In other words, the evidence presented at trial that Dick Cheney learned of Plame’s identity, passed it on to Libby in the context of responses to journalists, apparently ordered Libby to leak it to a journalist, but didn’t tell anyone else at the White House up to and including George Bush about that order–DOJ is stating that Cheney said some things in his interview that are "not identical" to those things revealed at trial.
And that, my friends, is what this heap of steaming stupid is designed to keep hidden.
Login Here




149 Comments
Spotlight



Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Emptywheel
Advanced search
RSS/XML Feed
Wow. Stupid is as stupid does. Time to eat a box of chocolates.
So, are they trying to cover up the cover up?
Bob in HI
Let me see if I’ve got this straight. DOJ won’t release the info because it will provide proof of lies from Cheney. And they say they won’t release it because they think releasing it will prevent future administrations from telling the truth when they are questioned.
Nah, they’re not holding onto it to prevent future lies. They just don’t want us to know how badly Cheney punked them.
Hey DOJ: Marcy’s been telling us this for years. We already know. Even Fitz knew. See “cloud” references.
Actually, I’m beginning to think that they won’t release it because he told the truth. That is, he revealed that he was leaking Plame’s identity. I’m trying to figure out why he didn’t charge Cheney, too. But it’s one of the few sensible answers that would explain why they’re trying so hard to hide this.
Sounds like they are trying to seed the clouds.
When I grow up, I wanna be as smart as Marcy Wheeler !
I’d also like to say Blowjob on National TeeVee … possibly in the company of several batshit crazy “spiritual leaders”.
But why would Fitz have talked about the cloud over the OVP if Cheney had told him the truth? Or does the truth come in parts here?
I just love it when you do this.
Can’t claim the Obama DOJ is engaged in a political witch hunt, can you?
Interesting that. Hope the court treats the stupid with the same response you do.
There you go with that 5 dimensional chess thing again?! I like your thinking!
Hey–
I’m counting THREE current EW threads, and another by bmaz, running on this website concurrently, each with comments after 4 PM. I think it is a sign of maturity(?) for this place that the thundering herd does not all abandon the last thread whenever a new diary is published, regardless of subject. Who knows, maybe EPU-land will shrink to a size where it can be drowned in a bathtub … (Oops, wrong metaphor!)
Bob in HI
Silly DOJ. You had to go mess up the living room after emptywheel had arranged everything so nicely. And THEN you had to pretend you hadn’t done it! And that even if you HAD done something, you hadn’t changed anything, really. Mama is _NOT_ happy with you boys.
We’re working on a suitable punishment. For now, go clean up your rooms. And no music, either.
A chink in Knight Fitz’ shiny armor? I can see why DoJ would want to hide that. Fitz is one of the few DoJ attorneys with any credibility at all. So if it looks like he took a dive, DoJ might just as well turn out the lights, board up the windows and doors and go home.
The plot thickens.
Wasn’t Cheney interviewed separately from Bush? And wasn’t Fitz really trying to get to Cheney in order to indict Bush? Is it possible that despite the fact that this whole mess was set up to ensure ‘plausible deniability’, maybe something went amuck?
Is it possible that something Cheney (or Scooter?) said to the FBI caught up with GWBush?
Because I still think it’s weird that Bush wouldn’t even look at Cheney during the inauguration. Bush was pissed about something, and despite Cheney’s vehement insistence that Scootie-Poot ‘deserved’ a full pardon, Bush didn’t give it.
Is Sealed vs Sealed potentially relevant here?
Well, bricklefritz! You and I seem to be pondering the same general question…
It might be the case that they are determined to control the clock–that they know this stuff will get out in good time. If so, why the hell would they want to do that? Do they have some grand project in mind that has to be rolled out one item at a time?
To put it another way: this doesn’t feel reactive, improvised. It feels deliberated, and is so obviously stupid that their might just be an agenda of disclosure that I can’t imagine.
Fantasies of this sort are my way of keeping somewhat sane when I read this stuff. (Oh, and thank you, Marcy!).
Two years AND a new administration.
But IMO this is all even more simple than all that.
DOJ gives out confidentiality agreements all the time – they know how to do it.
Cheney had brain trust Addington protecting his interests.
DOJ and Cheney didn’t enter into a confidentiality agreement (or you could say Spec Pros and Cheney didn’t enter into a confidentiality agreement).
So all the parade of horribles is stupid. They can all be addressed by a confidentiality agreement which people ask for and DOJ gives all the time.
Now whether or not, if there had been such an agreement, the court should nevertheless require production due to the public interest and (and btw, almost any confidentiality agreement you ever see has a out written in it that it is not a violation to produce the information subject to a valid court order) what impact such a ruling might have (on those things like lack of cooperation etc.) isn’t something before the court.
Fine – lets look at specific facts. In this case the facts are that there is no confidentiality agreement and that all parties to the conversation were experienced and able to negotiate a confidentiality agreement if one had been requested or required. They didn’t.
Maybe he took a dive, but have you read EW’s Ghorbanifar Timeline lately? Didn’t Fitz take years to uncover prior skulduggery in other cases…?
(Sorry, but I just can’t quite face giving up my optimism on a Friday evening…)
Could this “heap of steaming stupid” (love it!) have been produced by some of those Dick “Dick” leftovers still in the DOJ? That would be poetic justice, anyway.
Isn’t a bit of rewrite needed on this to be the official version? Stipulation or not contest or whatever it was about the NIE. Then, for the “not identical” part, you get exactly what you are saying.
I can’t wrap my head around him actually admitting he directed the outing. I think if he did, Fitzgerald would have added that to the fibbing charges against Libby, who never quite agreed that had happened.
You do have to wonder what was going on and you may be right, but I just think a lot of things would have gone differently if that was the case. I can see Cheney pointing them to Armitage or even Rove, and maybe getting pushed hard by Fitzgerald on some non-Plame issues, like how Cheney thought he could pull of insta-declassification by virtue of planting a story in domestic press, or even things a bit further afield, like the Niger forgery in general (Fitzgerald might have been testing the borders of his mandate). But I have a hard time with Cheney just saying – Yeah, I told Libby to tell the press that Wilson’s wife is CIA and got him the job as a boondoggle, bye bye Mr. Prosecutor, don’t let the door hit you …
If he did, though, it sure would be nice to know.
Oh, my paws and whiskers! Do you have a memory or what? *grin*
Cronkite died.
Sez the guy in Hawaii, where it’s mid-day.
No, point well taken, You guys rock–especially during Friday night news dumps.
We’ve tossed some of that back and forth. EW pretty rightly doesn’t want anyone to get sidetracked by the NIE leak cover story from the fact that Cheney probably was the one who told Libby to leak the CIA identity. With the leak of the CIA identity, they had a specific Congressional statute (IIPA) in addition to the typcial covert classification issue.
They think they can get around the NIE for two reasons, one is insta-declassification and the other is that pursuing it was outside of Fitzgerald’s mandate (which was a very narrow mandate to look at just the Plame leak and was even more decisively particularized during the Libby trial, with the challenges to Fitzgerald’s appointment).
I’ve always argued that what Fitzgerald put on the record for the NIE leak was a clear violation of the National Security Act (re: planting classified info into domestic press to influence domestic politics) and should have warranted it’s own investigation/response/reaction and that should have been addressed (and if you look at the transcripts of the discovery hearings on that NIE leak, Fitzgerald sounded imo very dogged on not necessarily wanting to say that what Cheney did was legal -just that it was not something he could/would charge for)
But I do agree that the NIE leak was something tossed out as a safe cover for Libby’s meeting with Miller. Especially since it got so quickly cleaned up with the subsequent public declassifications -it was a “eh, how much trouble could I get into for this anyway” bone to toss out to someone who couldn’t do anything about it anyway.
Still, if Cheney did actually confess that he told Libby to out Plame, that would be interesting to know.
I never salute, but I’m happy to salute that fine man. He was daringly generous to a young journalist I know, for the best of reasons, because he genuinely supported daring reporting, and the corporations be damned.
All honour to him. (I put the u in there for Mary.)
In this version of it, what did Dick Cheney do? Nothing.
What did Scooter Libby do? He perjured himself. He obstructed justice. He threw some sand.
Walter Cronkite has died.
bricklefritz:
The word you’ve entered isn’t in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above.
Well, whatever it was about, at some point klynn posted some links to the now-defunct AIPAC investigation. The two lobbyists charged were Rosen and Weissman, charged with exchanging classified info (with Larry Franklin, who worked under Feith at OSP).
Then Laura Rozen had reported that at some point when Franklin told Rosen and Weissman something [the contents of which were not reported], they went and whined to either Ledeen or Elliott Abrams. And IIRC, wasn’t Abrams at NSC?
I swear, if this damn thing was diagrammed it would look like a bunch of loops going from OVP to DoD-OSP to NSC, around, and around, and around, and around… oh, and some looping in with AIPAC.
Sorry, but no simple cellular analogies come to mind off the top of my head on a Friday evening. Other than that OVP and DoD-OSP were like institutional tumors, sucking all the nutrients out of the system. At least, that’s my at-a-glance view of it all.
But FWIW, I don’t actually understand what’s in an FBI 302 ‘protected by the deliberative process’. I don’t know whether that is only the text of interviews, or whether it also includes other info. Anyone know…?
Rep. Jan Schakowsky: CIA Investigation Will Go Deeper Than Cheney’s Program
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..38364.html
Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-IL), chair of the House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations, said that the 9/11 secret counterterror program that is being characterized as “non-operational” was much more than it’s being made out to be.
The subcommittee will also looking into the “Peruvian shoot-down in 2001,” Schakowsky said. “This is a case where the CIA actually lied to the committee,” she said, referring to the mistaken shooting down of a plane carrying missionaries. The CIA thought it was a drug plane — and told the Peruvian Air Force as much.
Fitz was all for releasing it to Conyers, if memory serves. If these are the same documents. Something doesn’t add up.
OT — wordsmithy digression:
;-)))))))))))))))))))))
skdadl used it one time; said he/she made it up as a child.
I was probably be too offensively profane or something, and skdadl made some cheering, witty comment along the lines of “hey, when I was a kid and didn’t want to swear, I invented a word that had lots of syllables — enough so that I could vent, without being obscene’.
(I’m sure that’s **not** what skdadl said, but memory is oddly quirky and that’s the gist as *I* recall it.)
I thought the word ‘bricklefritz’ had a lovely sound; a sort of ear-tickling swooping sort of sound. Plus, that hard ‘br’ at the front end and that very satisfying “CK” in the middle (sort of evocative of another “CK” that often comes out of my own mouth), made it a first-rate sounding word.
And skdadl also contributed what I regard as an absolutely charming expression: “Oh, my paws and whiskers.”
What is it about the eloquence of the Canadians who comment here? Not only literate — like Anthony Burgess, they make up positively amazing words, with genuine utility.
‘brickelfritz’ may not be in Websters, but it has a fond place inside my cranium. FWIW.
How do you know it isn’t
Bush’sCheney’s leftovers at the DOJ who are doing this?(I’ll admit that I’d be much happier if they weren’t so busy protecting the criminals from
usthe consequences of their actions.)It’s kind of what I’m saying, though. Forget you know anything about Marcy’s version. Go with the official version. “Information that is not at all similar” pretty well expresses it.
So now we know how they got Crazy Pete on board. Thanks for that.
LOL. It came from my frustration at trying to read characters in the funny papers who said things like !%$#$&% — instead of swearing, ie — you know how they do, or did? I was a very literal-minded little kid, and I couldn’t stand not being able to sound out a word I was reading, so I made up an all-purpose word for suppressed swearing — bricklefritz! It can come in handy.
And rOTL has the most amazing memory. It’s been six months at least since I wrote that out before.
Thanks! And skdadl, by choosing such a wonderful handle, says it all, doesn’t it?
Mary,ROTL, skdadl
Yeah, I’ve been puzzling through all that–and will do a post tomorrow.
If he admitted leaking Plame, then (as ROTL points out) the issue may be, did Bush okay it, or did Cheney say he did it on his own? If the latter, then O’Donnell’s statement becomes all the more dangerous (because if and when it becomes clear that Cheney testified HE did it alone, then at least one reporter knows the story was different in 2006. (Which is not to say Isikoff would admit it). But one of the big issues would be the question of whether Cheney did talk to Bush to get the leak okayed or not. In which case the cloud is, did Cheney obstruct justice to protect Bush? The other, more minor point, is whether Cheney sustained the Libby story that no one else knew that Plame had been declassified.
THen there’s the stuff Cheney did to work with Libby to do a cover story. Of course lying to the press (or orchestrating a lie to the press) is not obstruction, nor–if Cheney didn’t repeat Libby’s cover story–is working on a cover with Libby.
So I don’t know–like I said, I’m still working on this.
GOOD FOR THEM!
That’s one of the few positives I’ve had in awhile. There’s no way that we should have had to wait this long for someone to dig into the killing of a US missionary’s wife and infant child just because the CIA assisted in that killing.
My, my, and me here with a new copy of On Truth (sequel to On Bullshit). No need to isolate any quotes, really, just frisbee-hurl the little tome toward the vicinity of Eric Holder’s head.
On the lack of charge, might 5th Amendment figure in if Cheney’s not actually willing to sign a statement? Assuming no one’s corroborating his account.
And Garrett, of course, whom I responded to.
Well, the memory isn’t what it used to be, but the odd bits that make me go, “HUH?!! That makes no sense!” tend to catch like fish wiggling and flopping around in a net. (The rest of the info seems to elude me… water through racing through a sieve 8-p
But yeah, I know the aggravation of not being able to sound out a word! In that respect, learning my modest, tiny bits of Japanese was sheer heaven… (two of the three written Japanese are phonetic syllables, but the kanzi is — like Chinese — pictographs. Very relaxing, but tons of nuance and quite easy to misread (!).)
Speaking of ‘reading’, EW’s ‘readings’ are astounding.
I never seem to tire of having things that would ordinarily make my eyes glaze over turn into fascinating puzzles.
Agree *g*
BTW – sideways to the topic, I really think CREW might have an issue that they aren’t pushing hard enough, with the sourcing on the declarations.
For invocation of privilege, they need WH counsel. For most of the rest, while Breuer’s ramblings about things that can all be adequately addressed by a confidentiality agreement are lovely, no one in charge of this investigation is filing any declaration. Not Fitzgerald – understandably, bc he was in-house and is subject to supervision as he conceded in court by the acting attorney general for his investigation, but also nothing from the acting AG/AG (complete with a recitation of how they became the acting AG for the investigation).
I wish they’d poke on that a bit harder.
you are basically charging Obama’s DOJ with conspiracy to commit treason… and your evidence is… that they wont grant an FOIA request? sorry, im not breaking out my pitchfork and torches unless you have something more substantial. why dont you try interviewing people?
I am shocked, shocked at this alleged deficiency.
Bricklefritz! I like it. Much better than frab-jabbit.
im not breaking out my pitchfork
So you’re allowed access to sharp objects, now?
Congrats on the progress.
I am sorry, perhaps you have misunderstood. I am charging the Obama with conspiracy to obstruct justice. We will have to flesh out the facts, if we are ever allowed to do so, to see if it was treason as well.
Heh.
Agree. One thing I didn’t quote are there insistences that the privilege is not Cheney’s (or OVP’s), but the White House.
The White House is not asserting any privilege.
One post I’m going to write before Monday is a post pointing out how, at this point, this is partly about protecting Mukasey, not Cheney.
Ut oh, guys! I seem to have upset a would-be pitchfork wielder. My best guess is that it’s someone from the WaPo that still has outstanding factual inaccuracies of their coverage here, because the WaPo always says, “do an interview” when caught with their pants down.
Thanks for joining us, decora. First, do not assume you know whom I have and have not spoken to on this story. And second, before you make demands, try reading some evidence.
Given White House Counsel Greg Craig’s apparent involvement in all the State Secrets Privilege assertions, the fact that the dog didn’t bark on this Executive Privilege one is telling.
Anyone want to bet against me if the DOJ loses (as we all expect), that AG Holder will not appeal?
I think he’ll leave it as settled law, but one without higher court involvement and hence something to be possibly argued with a better case in the future.
EW, just a quick question about the realm of possible inconsistencies… The quote refers to the plaintiff’s submission. Is the information submitted only from the time of the trial or might there be more recent information that is now in the public domain that might be inconsistent with Cheney’s testimony. Just curious, as I have not read any of the plaintiff’s documents and the comments in the thread seem to focus on information introduced at the trial v. Cheney’s interview.
And, most importantly, they did not assert any privilege at the time it would have had to have been asserted.
Well, three of the four threads are still running currently with comments after 6 PM– the Sylvestre Reyes diary is lagging behind, but still has a comment after 5 PM.
Today has been a 3-4 ring circus at the Wheel House!
Bob in HI
OT – On the HPSCI CIA Investigation, per the AP:
It’s almost entirely stuff submitted at trial–plus a document I found from CIPA files afterwards.
Oooo, like David Gregory or Judy Miller? Why sure — I’m sure all we need is an interview. Golly, why didn’t we think of that???
Thanks for the clarification EW, I appreciate it!
I dunno that that is particularly telling. The rule on privilege is that it must be asserted and protected or it is considered waived. That point was when Cheney, Bush and counsels were negotiating the terms for their debriefing by Fitz in order to stave off a grand jury summons. They did not assert it then.
That said, I will take your bet, I think Obama will pursue.
But, is Holder stalling some of these issues? Hoping for better Supremes?
*Alice Forever*
Thanks MD.
I’m going to tentatively go with MD on this, but let me revisit it after I write my next few posts.
My thinking being that this is just a dog of an argument. I can’t fucking believe they tried to say, “oh, that routine public release of interviews that are perfectly on point? They don’t count because we’re sure Cheney, who was personally involved can’t remember them or couldn’t when he was deciding whether or not to cooperate.”
decora’s concern troll complaint brings to mind one of many garbled strangled half-sentences and half-phrases that spewed out of Chuck Todd’s throat in his confrontation with the Glennzilla yesterday: “all I’m sayin’ is ya know in future ya could call me first” – which of course would have done exactly nothing to fix the point Greenwald was making but would have possibly provided Todd with a chance to plead for mercy before the point was published.
I like the idea of making “Steaming Heap of Stupid” a regular feature here, maybe even a permanent side piece for daily or weekly updating as Obama’s AG and HOlder’s DOJ keep producing it.
My favorite non-dictionary cuss word was something like ”sreberdegebit”(?) –coined by Fredrik Brown as a name for some minor devil who was always making trouble, in one of his very very short stories.
Bob in HI
Hmmm, this might require an award like the hubcap. Or maybe just it’s own timeline so we can watch the ebb and flow of the raw stupid as it washes up here on the shores of the lake ; )
Oh, they are dog poop arguments alright, but that has not stopped Obama and his DOJ in other areas to date. I bet the trendline….
Unless my memory is out of whack (not an unlikely occurence *g*), former AG Mumbles Mukasey did have Junya assert Executive Privilege originally to Waxman’s subpoena for the Cheney interview transcripts.
And the fact that the Obama Administration has not repeated that assertion is why I think it is telling.
As to the bet on AG Holder appealing, pick your favorite alcoholic beverage and you’re on! *g*
As a side note, I don’t remember this seeing this last October via Jason Leopold:
Incidentally, that hubcap I had to give away earlier today for the “Guess the Yoo lawyer” contest? The winner donated it to PRLDEF.
That (Waxman) is not the critical point. The critical point was when the privilege was not formally asserted with Fitz.
How perfect! That was inspired ; )
On the States Secret stuff, I don’t believe he is stalling for better Supremes.
To a certain extent, I think AG Holder (and the Obama Administration as a whole), feels the need to protect their executive branch “privileges” first, and only secondarily are concerned about whether the original Bush/Cheney use of States Secret in these cases was an abuse of the privilege.
And in addition, while we feel that Obama and Holder et al. should have taken personal command of this issue (and they indeed may have), I still add that managing a 100,000 person workforce like the DOJ means you can’t be everywhere and know everything going on, nor can you necessarily feel that you can dictate each and every decision made lower down.
I’m not trying to excuse AG Holder from this responsibility, but describe the real world as I’ve come to know it.
Tsk, tsk. That was merely a minor technical oversight on
Cheney’sAddington’sFredo’sJunya’s part. You can’t possibly hold that against him, could you? *vbg*That’s why I’m reserving my right to reverse after my next several posts.
The other state secrets stuff would all require some kind of action from DOJ/the Obama Administration. But this seems to be closer to the HJC fight over Miers and Rove’s testimony–which is already before a special counsel, and so which would not require any activity from DOJ. Yes, the interview with Rove might expose new information (and I suspect it will). But you can still pawn any decisions onto Nora Danney, who is Mukasey’s responsibility.
But this, presumably, would be even easier than the HJC interview. Cheney’s role in the leak is exposed, but so what, it doesn’t go anywhere.
But I’m trying to think through whether that’s true.
I don’t think it was an oversight; I think they were told it was a non-starter and the alternative was GJ. O’Donnell and Addington didn’t just forget. It was a calculated play.
That is probably true. At the time, the EOP/OVP folks were staring into the barrel of a Patrick Fitzgerald gun.
The later effort on EP by Mumbles Mukasey was long after the investigative and prosecutorial fires had died down, so they figured “why not?”.
Well, I’m not sure if I’m flattered by the company but, apparently the DOJ is also telling us that the law is not the law.
TA (NOW what do I use for a tag line?)
“I like the idea of making “Steaming Heap of Stupid” a regular feature here, maybe even a permanent side piece for daily or weekly updating as Obama’s AG and HOlder’s DOJ keep producing it”
Maybe some of these will work
“I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard
stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid so stupid that it goes way
beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid.
You are trans-stupid stupid. Meta-stupid. Stupid collapsed on itself
so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid gotten so dense
that no intellect can escape. Singularity stupid. Blazing hot mid-day
sun on Mercury stupid. You emit more stupid in one second than our
entire galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid. Your writing has to be a
troll. Nothing in our universe can really be this stupid
and other assorted gems (some are downright vicious)
http://www.belowtopsecret.com/…..342463/pg1
How about “You are so stupid, you died before breakfast” ?
YES!
“Dick Cheney learned of Plame’s identity, passed it on to Libby in the context of responses to journalists, apparently ordered Libby to leak it to a journalist . . . And that, my friends, is what this heap of steaming stupid is designed to keep hidden.”
IE, Obama’s DOJ knows that Cheney outed Plame, which is treason, and they are covering it up, so its conspiracy. now where do i star typing the insults and stuff? would here be good?
ps i am STar Struck!!! i cant believe that MARCY WHEELER TYPED MY FAKE INTERNET NAME AND INSULTED ME. i feel like charlie brown after he danced with that little red haired girl. omg omg omg. OMG@@@!!!#@#@
pps yes i am from wapo!!! i am ron suskind holy shit u outed me!1!! that’s internet treason ???!!!!
Well, not voluntarily.
babydick?
oops wrong newspaper. lol. all part of my plot to confuse u
Far as I can tell you are pretty much just a pathetic narcissist that doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground about the law and not much more about the facts of the Libby case. Belligerent ignorance must be such bliss. But, hey, knock yourself out.
Nah, babydick has her flaws, but a peculiar obsession with treason is most definitely not one of them.
im not talkin about the libby case im talking about this article, and what it says in plain english. whether its conspiracy to commit treason or obstruction, its a huge charge to lay against someone. and you are laying it. it is not like you were asking a rhetorical question. you flat out said that DOJ is knowingly covering up a crime. so im a reader. and i want more evidence. and so, in conclusion, … qed, so forth. i guess that makes me a troll, an ass not knower, and worst of all, a washington post reporter.
Where is Freep?
EW @75
Hoo Boy! Clear some space! EW’s thinking something through.
Everybody get real quiet now.
Bob in HI
Readers are expected to examine the fact set and the arguments made in the main post and discuss them in the comments. If something doesn’t make sense, inquire, challenge, state your analysis, cite facts and link to them…
How do you make sense of the DOJ RESPONSE TO PLAINTIF’S SUPPLEMENTAL MEMORANDUM that contains arguments so poorly formulated that taken together, they amount to “piles of steaming stupid”?
decora
You are apparently new in these parts and appear to have missed 4 years of work I have done on this story. Okay. Let me catch you up.
Unlike some other folks here, I don’t necessarily believe that a conservative prosecutor like PatFitz would have 1) determined that Cheney leaked Plame’s ID, 2) been told CHeney insta-declassified her identity per power granted (he claimed) in EO 13292, and 3) considered the problem of indicting a sitting VP for something he did while VP would take charges and then prosecuted.
But if Fitz didn’t prosecute–seeing all the evidence currently before DOJ–then you can’t really claim DOJ is covering up a crime. So don’t put words in my mouth while claiming I’m making crazy claims.
That said, I stand by what I’ve said here (though lawyers may dispute my second and third point: “full and complete” and “summary = source”). You’re not actually disputing on the merits. Mostly just saying “wah! show me the evidence you’ve got here in and in the links.”
You could send decora to your book. I’ve read it through a half dozen times or more and still see something new each time. Plus I wasted a number of hours reading through parts of Hubris several times, when I could have saved those hours for something useful, like slowing down climate change, bringing about a late-stage reversel of the Holocene mass extinction, or curing insidious crab grass. [I’d like to see an updated edition of Anatomy, but I’m not trying to appear ungrateful or anything.]
If decora can’t afford or find your book, you could send … her?… back to the dozens and dozens of intensely focused densely reasons posts still warehoused at thenexthurrah.com [we’re there right? pin self…ouch…wave tiny flag…hurrah]. You could even suggest that if decora has a short attention span — which appears very possible from decora’s comments posted here — to one or more of your big multi-part summaries [I particularly like the series where you perform a complete evisceration of Judy Miller and find neocon fingerprints all over her entrails.]
Or if decora just a moron or idiot or modern Republican or movement conservative, then there’s no hope anyway, and she’s pre-destined to be devoured as freep-burger.
Can I just add I am looking forward to your theory and what in hell this is about, and FWIW here’s a thought I’ve had, which kind of takes a bit from the teensy little bit of what Chuck Todd had to say for himself that might be minutely worthy, and otherwise from some experiences I’ve had suing on behalf of folks and organizations claiming to have been screwed over and damaged by the government.
Actually, in that last area I’ve had a little bit of experience on behalf of governments fending off and quite a bit more thereafter on the other side. But even the little bit might have some instructive value.
As a general matter, defending against valid legal claims is sole destroying. It can be lucrative, particularly if one is systematically bloodless or ruthless or one glories in the unmerited misery of others and relishes adding to that; but beyond it’s not got much of anything to add value or worth to a person’s life, lawyer or not.
This is particularly so for those who go into public service, where one can’t even look forward to big bucks and cars and houses and country club living and fancy vacations to offset defending against valid legal claims. The fact and legal analysis can be interesting and fun, to a point, but then you really want to end the damn thing with a fair settlement so you can sleep at night [Sometimes the claimant or his lawyer can act in ways that make beating up on them feel something like rewarding, but even that’s really just fodder for beer thirty story telling time].
So not surprisingly, one tends to find that the government lawyer or legal team defending against a valid claim has changed, and is the second or third or fifth or twenty-eleventy-eighth you’ve run into as each unfortunate with the government scrambles to dumb the case on the next person to walk in the door not paying attention, or the lawyer or legal team is stuck with the damn thing because everyone else in the government department is wise to the case and its being left to the current sufferer to dispose of.
It can get even worse: sometimes the case is being handled by a team that’s headed out the door as soon as the case is over and knows it, or is headed to effective career burial in the deepest big government pit of oblivious anonymity imaginable, and such a team can have certain incentives to keep the dog case going if they are not particularly attracted to unemployment or bureaucratic suffocation.
And it can get worse still: sometimes the case itself is not just reviled but is considered so toxic it has something like a black hole effect, sucking resources into it but never regarded as yielding any light or hope, such that a new administrator above it all will be loathe to do or say or write or even read anything whatsoever to do with the slightest technical detail that touches on the outer parameters of the case, for fear he or she might be regarded as the ‘highest responsible official’. And one of the particularly unfortunate aspects of this tendency is that there is absolutely no path by which really ugly civil claim defenses can ever get through to the top, without some judge going absolutely bananas in court and the press being there to report the whole ugly scene and doing so — or without some smarty nagging blogger pulling at the threads of the disgusting business and some of her handiwork being accidentally picked up by someone or the other among the piranhas in the msm.
[”And then you go
And spoil it all
By saying something stupid like
I love youA blowjob”Sorry; couldn’t resist.]
I think this Cheney interview business is one of dozens and dozens of really ugly defending briefs that Obama-Holder have inherited which neither is at all invested in or interested in or has to least intention of forcing to a head, at least until Sotomayor is confirmed and a health care bill with a public option is signed. I also think the immediate managers of the FOIA lawsuit and al-Haramain and the other Judge Walker cases are doing nothing more than telling the teams the AG and or the administration want nothing to happen on these cases until those goals are achieved or hell freeze’s over whichever comes later, but that the teams can no longer outright lie or commit criminal fraud in defending against the actions, which is crimping the styles of some, and can’t take certain positions on a list of verbotten positions on a piece of paper bearing craiggreg/gregcraig’s interchangeable watermark — which restrictions are having the effect of reducing the options available to a lot of bloodless bastard types down to doing really lame things or acting stupid or both together.
I’ve seen this sort of thing more than once: a stupid and or oppressive administration does something characteristic that harms someone who becomes my client, who then sues, faces an obnoxious, bullying lawyer or legal team for the government inciting ridicule and hatred in the judge, followed by months and years of non-delivery of the goods and delay and increasing incidents of early statements and positions being exposed as bullshit, then everything goes into arthritic snail pacing during election season, POOF a new boss, the promise of a new broom, and fresh eyes to review, and delay, and meanwhile the same amoral dicks and or sadsack victims defending before the election phase are now working twice as heard towards making sure less than nothing happens to make things worse. It can get quite comic: in one case I made a early motion for part judgment on a piece that was very big based on an historical position taken by the government over the course of 5 previous administrations, of both stripes of course, and as the new boss came in spouting intentions of restoring such positions the same team for the old boss continued on the file for almost a year more before we received an overture to settle on the basis of what everyone knew always used to be the case and was now the case again.
And can I just close by saying I hope the EPU tradition never dies, because without it very often I never get to post anything. Pity the older folk, younguns.
What you describe sounds a lot like the Department of the Interior/Bureau of Indian Affairs. One of my major disappointments for the 8 year Clinton administration is that Bruce Babbitt was not able to straighten out the mess there wrt management of Indian funds, and left things not much better than they were when he took charge. The Stupid reigned supreme, apparently intractable and unfixable.
and here we are [cue the band], wasting away again in EPUey-ville, searching for my lost shaker of salt.
Bob in HI
Yes, it’s a heap o’ stupid. ObamaCo doesn’t really expect to win. Their goal from the start is to drag this out as long as they can.
So they submit the pile o’ stupid. The court must give the ACLU time to respond, then hold hearings. Then we wait for a ruling. Time passes.
A ruling is made. The judge calls the crock a crock. Now, Obamaco gets what they’ve wanted: an appealable order. So they appeal, forcing the appeals court to wade through the crock again.
Then we go to the supremes.Maybe they side with the ACLU, maybe they don’t. But more time passes.
See, they don’t care about the stupid. They want the time.
Boxturtle (You’ll see lots more stupid for the courts to rule upon before this is over)
One Presbyterian vote aye.
Oh, yes. I love EPU-ville. This is where I get to post my OT questions to the lawyers, to wit:
I have a question about the effect of Boumediene on charges brought against GTMO prisoners and commissions started up before and after the decision. Because I’m NAL, I’m probably going to mangle even the question, but I hope someone can straighten me out.
It is my understanding that those few prisoners who were charged and whose commissions were set up before Boumediene do not have the right to a habeas hearing until their commission process is played out. Is that true? Why? And should they be convicted, on what grounds could they then talk to a federal court? (Those prisoners include the so-called high-value detainees, plus Omar Khadr, one of the reasons I’m wondering about all this.)
By contrast, a number of people have been watching the case of Mohammed Jawad, another child soldier, who was also charged and whose commission was started up but after Boumediene. The DoJ has now agreed not to use Jawad’s confessions against him after the ACLU argued on his behalf that his statements were extracted by torture. (Yay.)
First, was the ACLU filing on Jawad’s behalf possible because of Boumediene? Has this process been more or less his habeas hearing? (Sorry: I’m sure this sounds stupid, but I’m trying.)
And second, am I right in thinking that Jawad and Khadr are in different legal systems, Jawad with a right that Khadr doesn’t have, because of the timing of the charges?
Khadr’s trial had actually begun days before the inauguration, and tainted testimony was given on the very eve, so already he’s in a different situation from Jawad. His trial was suspended along with the others for a time, but it is underway again, and under very bad circs — nasty wrangling among the JAGs, which may result in Khadr’s best defender being removed from the case.
Anyway, I’d be grateful for all clarification of the legal distinctions at work here.
Me too. I find it’s often where people who really want to think things through finally get to mull things through.
Also, if any of the attys in these parts can explain what comprises an ‘FBI 302′, it would be helpful.
LabDancer@94, if words could be cognac, distilled and dense with years of life, that comment is ‘cognac’. Which I mean as a grand compliment; it’s verbal Courvoisier.
BobS @96 — here’s hoping!
Okay, I’ll be quiet now…
Greenwald/Chuck Todd podcast.
It kills Babbitt himself to this day.
For the sake of argument only, let us give Obama/Craig/Holder that benefit of the doubt you and LD are proposing; how is it any better or morally superior to Bush/Cheney? Hell, at least Bush and Cheney believed in their bullshit; under your and LD’s hypothetical, Obama et. al do not and still play out the string out of craven political game advantage. I could make out the argument that is even worse.
An FBI 302 is basically an official witness interview report.
I agree on the assertions of exec privilege generically, or at a minimum raising them during the prosecution of the Libby case. But this is also where the in-house nature of the Fitzgerald investigation makes things murky – in the deliberative process and “adverse” parties areas in particular.
Here’s what you had. A big crew, including even Lieberman, calling for a real outside independent prosecutor. There was about as much public reaction to this issue as there had been to anything at the time, with even big name R-s grumbling and with a hard push, IMO Congress could have gotten someone appointed under revised regs or even put through a special indep counsel statutory framework. Instead, Comey and Schumer got together and did an endrun, appointing Fitzgerald and Fitzgerald making it clear from the get go that his marching orders from his acting AG were that there was not going to be any report to Congress from his investigations. He said it right in the initial press conf and pretty forthrightly.
SO you had Fitzgerald, working for Bush (in a pretty direct chain from Bush to Comey to Fitzgerald), and Cheney, working for Bush. Bush makes his public statements that he is directing what are basically all “his people” to cooperate with what is basically “his investigator.”
This goes to train that Fitzgerald tried to push onto another track at trial on alignment of the parties. If Fitzgerald and Cheney were “aligned” parties and interests, would privilege have needed to be raised? I hate to be saying this, esp since no one at Gov is making the argument from exactly this pitchpoint, but I’m not sure it would have.
Fitzgerald tried to keep the arguments open, but he argued from a standpoint of having more independence than, in the end, he had and also in the end, he has admitted to that lack of real independence in both the court filings (where he agreed his mandate could be changed or revoked, at any time and from time to time) and in his letters to Congress (where he makes the same admission and makes it in a kind of suggestive way IMO, where it’s not something he was necessarily required to state so specifically in the letter that I remember seeing).
So I think it does become important to trace the control of both the OVP, WH and Fitzgerald investigation in both administrations and make sure that the right parties make the right assertions. I’m guessing one thing Obama really doesn’t want to do is have his name directly linked with Mr. 17%, but I don’t see how he gets around it at this point, esp with his EO on who can assert (and EO that needs to be highlighted in this proceeding IMO).
I don’t know who Biden has as counsel for OVP – ? And I dont’ think it has ever been really, truly nailed down as to what happened after the initial transfer to Margolis, but he’s still around to make assertions if he’s still the guy calling the shots.
But at some point, to get to the endpoint and despite the ridiculous arguments DOJ is making, I think someone is going to have to get to the alignment of interests and need to assert privilegeand who is asserting etc. Unless the court just says – you’ve had your chance and didn’t ever make a credible responsive argumetn – and rules. It’s just on this kind of comity issue, it seems like the Judge might give more chances to DOJ than you would ordinarily get. Not just second bites of the apple, but second apples maybe even.
Or not.
I guess we’ll see what happens.
Fox on the run
by John Allemang
From Saturday’s Globe and Mail
Last updated on Saturday, Jul. 18, 2009 03:36AM EDT
“Mr. Cheney’s absence of introspection is consistent with a pattern set during the proud and secretive Bush presidency that keeps on revealing itself, even in the Obama era. When acting on principle, as the representative of what he calls “a strong, robust executive authority,” Dick Cheney is never wrong. And how can he be, since he made up the rules?
“But that’s exactly where the bunker mentality gets it wrong. With the ascendancy of Barack Obama, the rules have changed, the secrets are being exposed, the patriots start to look like enemies of the state and the hunter has become the hunted.
“Yet even as he faces his judgment day, Dick Cheney still thinks that he’s in charge.”
Link.
I didn’t mean to imply in my post that there was anything honorable or aboveboard about ObamaCo’s filing, it is simply a continuation of BushCo’s delay strategy. The government has bottomless pockets, the ACLU and other plantiffs do not. Also, perhaps some of those plantiffs will get on small planes with flightworthiness issues.
I’m thinking we’ll be lucky if the appeals court rules on whatever appeal the government generates by this time NEXT year, never mind the supremes. Anything that comes from anywhere but the supremes will be appealed.
I wonder why they just don’t plead nolo and then argue damages. That would keep this information from the general public, which isn’t paying much attention anyway.
Boxturtle (As to which is worse, flip a coin)
Jesus Mary and Joseph
“Rather, the predictive judgment as to whether release could deter future needed cooperation by senior White House officials depends on case-specific factors such as how high-ranking the official was, whether he or she or the President he or she served was in office at the time of the interview, and the period of time that has elapsed since the individual has left office”
Is Cheney “above the law” or not? So far looks like he is!
They are not talking about protecting National Security they are protecting a former V.P. from being held accountable for purposely outing Plame. This is insane.
The clouds are still haning over Cheney and the Dept of Justice. Thick and dark clouds
And they sure aren’t talking about protecting the Constitution. Apparently, it now applies according to whim.
Interesting theory; but I would argue that if Fitzpatrick was sufficiently adverse to criminally prosecute Libby who was a top man to both Cheney and Bush, and had the authority to subpoena at will, which he did, then your argument ultimately fails.
Fitzy: If only the law required a final report, he could have summarized
his Plame work. Bastards, for deleting that requirement.
When can Fitzy speak? Imagine if EW could be granted an exclusive
interview, better than Playboy…
Naw, put it in Playboy. With pictures.
Good idea. Marcy won’t have to worry if she says “blow job” there.
My vision is that Fitz is in the Judicairy committee hearing room, Marcy is questioning him and the entire committee forced to listen to the questions and answers. On live TV.
Boxturtle (And the Sgt At Arms prevents the Committee from interrupting. *SIGH*)
That’s why I looked to the operative time frame possibly being the filing instead of at the interview. Fitzgerald’s response to the alignment argument (where the court originally ruled he was aligned) was that the information, documents and responses he had received had been in response to a subpoena. I don’t think that’s the case, though, with respect to the WH and OVP interviews.
I do think someone should do with Bush in this case what some of the more recent filings have been doing with Obama. They should go back and pull his statements about wanting to get to the bottom of things, etc. as public record evidence that he was not seeking or requiring confidentiality or invoking privilege with respect to the interviews in his admin.
OT… what kind of beer does Obama drink? I think I saw him having a cold
one at the All Star Game. It’s humid, and close to 90 here, for the first time. Thirsty?
“President George W. Bush didn’t drink beer, but President Barack Obama does, which means that Craig Purser, president of the National Beer Wholesalers Association, is a happy man. “We’re definitely pleased to see him enjoying a cold one,” Purser said in a POLITICO podcast. “It’s great to have someone who understands and enjoys the product.”
When an FBI agent interviews a witness, he or she usually jots down the responses in a notebook or legal pad. Back at the office the agent will generate an official report about the interview based on the notes and memory recall. The report is printed out on a government form called FBI Form 302 and this is why lawyers refer to government witness statements as FBI 302s. Other government law enforcement agencies follow the same procedure but each agency uses a form with a different number that is unique to that agency (e.g, DEA 6). The FBI 302s are provided to defense counsel to review before cross-examining the witness at trial. When they are provided to defense counsel varies from district to district. In the district where I practiced, all trials started on Mondays. The 302s and the government’s witness list were delivered to my office late Friday afternoon, which made for a rather frantic weekend. I tried a lot of federal criminal cases over the years and I don’t believe that I ever received less than 10 bankers boxes stuffed full of documents that I had read, catalog, and cross reference before Monday at 9 AM.
Unlike most state law enforcement agencies, the FBI by design never tape records or videotapes interviews with witnesses or suspects and the agents do not write a statement during an interview for the witness or suspect to review and sign at the conclusion of the interview. If a swearing contest between a witness or defendant and the agent regarding what was said breaks out during the trial, the well dressed and well spoken agent usually wins.
That’s probably far more information than you wanted to know but there you have it.
Yep – after all, obviously if someone is high ranking in an adminsitration in office, DOJ feels they should
be able to rely on their admissions of criminal conduct being covered uphave their statements protected to protect *proper* functioning of DOJ.BTW – on the appeal front I vote that Holderco will appeal from an adverse ruling on release. Delay, delay, delay, delay – point over there, and oh yeah, over there too, etc.
Check it out!
At least he’s being aggressive on health care.
There are no drinkable domestic beers with the exception of small local breweries with limited distribution.
Oh, and one more thing. All lite beers suck!
You know, I proposed an interview in which I would look to evidence in teh public record and he would confirm that I read it correctly, all taped so no one could think that he had leaked anything to me.
I should have proposed it earlier. As it happened, I did so just as Mukasey was starting his effort to bury all this–like, literally, the same day.
Amherst rugby brings Playboy magazine “Hunting Dick.”
Hmmm. Nuh uh.
I see the argument, glad you are not representing them, but I still think it ultimately fails. My counter would be that it is exactly because “…the information, documents and responses he had received had been in response to a subpoena” was the status Fitz enjoyed as to investigative discovery is why the WH subjects were willing to waive privilege to not go that route. It was a calculated and knowing tradeoff: the possibility that it could, someday, be public info versus the humiliating circus atmosphere of having to trudge down to the Grand Jury and give sworn testimony but perhaps retaining 6(e) protected status. GJ transcripts get leaked; just ask Barry Bonds. I still maintain it was a waiver.
Heh, in a couple of cases, I didn’t get the damn things until after direct of the witness at the trial.
Incidentally, one file I don’t have in soft copy on my computer (unless it was on teh harddrive that mr. ew just zapped) is the opinion on releasing parts of Fitz’s affidavits. And I don’t remember whether the most recent one was District or Circuit. But if it’s Circuit, then there would be pretty strong language about setting aside grand jury precedent IN THIS CASE because of the public interest.
Oh, you are just scratching that surface. Think of the possibilities here…..
I don’t think I have it either, but it was District not Circuit was it not?
Very helpful explanation. Thanks!
After reading it… let’s just say that if I make it my entire life without ever being interviewed by the FBI, that’d be just fine by me. Yikies.
As for the reading tasks… ahhhhh, indexing. Who doesn’t want to do that all weekend long, eh? /s ;-))
Ay, yi, yiiii.
It’s snappy rejoinders like 125 and 126 that make clear it’s a foreign dialect y’all speak.
I wouldn’t want to be understood as giving Obama or Holder CREDIT for this position, assuming it’s anywhere near accurate [which I’m proposing it might well be].
Thousands of civil cases with individual facts are in one category; they can take a long time to catch up on. Criminal cases with some political sensitivity or notoriety, but mainly involving folks in custody, take priority over the former group. The Gutmo group take first priority, and it’s impossible for me to accept that the transition group wouldn’t have arranged to dedicate a group of lawyers whose judgment they trust to take a thorough look at the publicly available material and do their best to get access to anything else in the interim, failing which they could gather up all the necessary additional info in a matter of a month to six weeks. I mean, they could have given this assignment to ms IANAL fearless leader emptywheel, and with just the resources she has available here, the job would’ve been done well within that period. I understand the view of Congress as a bunch of ADHD-ridden dogs and cats, but IMO the time to have struck on Gutmo was in the first glow of the honeymoon.
Again, understanding the POV and agreeing with the approach are not the same thing.
The reason I think it was Circuit is bc I didn’t get a copy until a trip to Prettyman. I seem to remember it being in a nice APpeals folder.
We went through all this here years ago, in advance of and then again in the context of the trial of Libby. ROTL’s attendance here stretches back beyond those periods. Nor did ROTL’s comment suggest any lack of understanding in the area that you decided to pontificate on. Go ahead- go back and check all the hundreds of posts and thousands upon thousands of comments in the threads to those, warehoused at thenexthurrah.com mostly under emptywheel’s byline. Then maybe you’ll appreciate better why I see your comment and in-for-ma-tion more than a little condescending.
Me too. But those instances can be quite empowering, wouldn’t you agree? For example, most often one gets way more room and time to put the prosecution’s witness on the slow rotisserie to make sure he or she is thoroughly done; and that room and time I’ve found is also often extended to subsequent prosecution witnesses; and best of all one often has room to really go to town on the prosecution in final arguments to the jury, sometimes even with actual words of support or heavens to betsy ENCOURAGEMENT from the judge.
Plus its occurrence so often marks the abrupt end to the trial judge’s honeymoon with the prosecution side; with judges we don’t know from prior history with them, so often defending lawyers start the trial with a big presumptive “A” in their foreheads, and news of late-tendered 302s can operate like a quick-acting laxative to get rid of eyes full of stars and related schmoopiness.
Naw, I don’t think so. Not everybody has been around that long, and it was a good explanation.
How utterly ‘Joe Bftsplk’ of you (see Li’l Abner, of Daisy fame)
No, actually. Appreciate being defended so generously, but Mason’s explanation was quite valuable for me. For whatever reason, I’d never known what an FBI 302 is and the explanation was comprehensive, clear, and of value for my understanding.
But appreciate the generous spirit in my defense. (Or, at least, that’s how I choose to read it.)
I posted a lot on FDL before, during, and after the Libby trial. I’ve been busy doing other things since and dropped by to read and eventually participate. I’ve always made a point to answer a non-lawyer’s question because I believe we have a duty to do that. Of course, I know that a lawyer with any federal court experience knows what an FBI 302 is and would never even think of explaining what it is to one of them. I responded to a question posted by a non-lawyer here on this thread and I refuse to apologize for it.
Go soak your head in a bucket of ice water, if you don’t like it, but don’t accuse me of being condescending because I won’t tolerate it and I don’t give a damn who you are.
This is the question ROTL asked @ 100 that I answered:
“Also, if any of the attys in these parts can explain what comprises an ‘FBI 302′, it would be helpful.”
Go back and read it, if you think ROTL didn’t ask that question.
Alright now. I knew it was a misunderstanding of you on LD’s part and said so. Now, I will do the converse and note that LD has been here for quite a while and, even though mistaken, was trying to protect another long time regular. We are all on the same side here and let’s leave this nonsense go. There was no bad intent in the mix.
That’s prolly the first time I’ve witnessed two attorneys fightin’ with each other for free …
*ducks & runs*
Sorry, but I’ve got some sharp edges and that remark infuriated me.
I’ll let it go.
Fortunately, I cool down as fast as I heat up and never hold grudges.
What’s for dinner?
“Steaming heap” is trending in twitter-ville. PICTURE
`
Good question. I’m eating late this evening and I’m not so interested in doing a lot of cooking. I’ll probably have fresh fruit and berries with yogurt and a ham sandwich on pumpernickel. If I’m still hungry I’ll snack on popcorn and tall cold drink while watching the Tour de France on versus. What are you having?
What you had @ 144.
That’s not healthy Bmaz, just one punctuation-sized crumb. I had blueberries and plain yogurt with raspberry preserves. Something more later.
“you can get anything you want at .. marcy’s little blog ..”
[ come on in ..
the door’s around back ..
just a half-a-mile from
the railroad tracks ..]
annd you can get anythang you want … “:)
My guess is that there was an EO that we do not know about and may not have been actually written into the register that Cheney’s interview reveals. The thing is…and as Fitzgerald was trying to point out in his closing statements during the Libby prosecution…is that the Congress needs to take appropriate legal proceedings against sitting nationally elected and appointed officials seriously…not as things to be “taken off the table” because the Congress has no cojones for it.