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	<title>Comments on: Neither of Cheney&#8217;s Illegal Programs Was Effective</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/</link>
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		<title>By: fatster</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-172172</link>
		<dc:creator>fatster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 16:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-172172</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Maybe Obama needs them to keep an eye &lt;strong&gt;on&lt;/strong&gt; Dick “Dick.”&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe Obama needs them to keep an eye <strong>on</strong> Dick “Dick.”</p>
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		<title>By: Phoenix Woman</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-172153</link>
		<dc:creator>Phoenix Woman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 14:06:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-172153</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It’s instructive to contrast the behavior and actions of two Nixon alums, John Dean and Dick Cheney.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The lesson John Dean learned from Watergate:  The Republican Party, as evinced by Nixon and his crew, is growing ever more insane, cruel, and amoral.  Follow their lead at your peril.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The lesson Dick Cheney learned from Watergate:  Boy, it sucks to get caught.  Glad I didn’t — now I can work to get revenge on those who caught my buddies!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It’s instructive to contrast the behavior and actions of two Nixon alums, John Dean and Dick Cheney.</p>
<p>The lesson John Dean learned from Watergate:  The Republican Party, as evinced by Nixon and his crew, is growing ever more insane, cruel, and amoral.  Follow their lead at your peril.</p>
<p>The lesson Dick Cheney learned from Watergate:  Boy, it sucks to get caught.  Glad I didn’t — now I can work to get revenge on those who caught my buddies!</p>
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		<title>By: esseff44</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-172037</link>
		<dc:creator>esseff44</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:49:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-172037</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Was it this that Jane Harman just found out she had been caught up in?  Her story was news for a day and they dropped.  It must have been part of a bigger net with finer mesh than we have been told about.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was it this that Jane Harman just found out she had been caught up in?  Her story was news for a day and they dropped.  It must have been part of a bigger net with finer mesh than we have been told about.</p>
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		<title>By: readerOfTeaLeaves</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-172033</link>
		<dc:creator>readerOfTeaLeaves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:40:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-172033</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Hell, not only does it ’save lives’, the economic fantasms that Gramm moved through the Senate ‘help innovation’.&lt;br /&gt;
Even Orwell must be rolling in his grave.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hell, not only does it ’save lives’, the economic fantasms that Gramm moved through the Senate ‘help innovation’.<br />
Even Orwell must be rolling in his grave.</p>
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		<title>By: Justinajustice</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-172031</link>
		<dc:creator>Justinajustice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-172031</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I’m not convinced that: “Neither of Cheney’s Illegal Programs Was Effective.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;That statement revolves on the goals of the person who is defining “effective.”  From Cheney’s perspective, it was totally effective.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The PSP was such a closely guarded secret that few of the operational people who were really hunting terrorists were read into the program; and, when PSP information reached those operational people, its provenance was disguised so they could not distinguish between what was useful and what was noise. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This program was obviously not designed to help anti-terrorist agencies find the terrorists.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The operations people were not setting the targets for the information capture, but only those priviledged few who were “read” into the program. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Likely Cheney and Addington were setting the targets and obtaining the results personally.  We can be sure that journalists were on the list, as whistle-blowers have told us that journalists were prime targets.  Then, of course, there would be Democratic and Republican congressional representatives, the administration’s own top officials and employees.&lt;br /&gt;
Financial institutions and other corporations?  Why not?  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Information was power to Cheney — and through PSP he could access information on whoever and whatever he wanted. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Let us hope that a congressional investigation will demand to obtain the names and job capacities of everyone who set the targets and those of all who were targeted.  What a massive “enemies list” that will produce.  Nixon will look like a piker compared to Cheney.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Maybe once our spineless congress people discover their own names, telephone and e-mail records in Cheney’s private information bank, they will finally put impeachment on the table.  It still can be done.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’m not convinced that: “Neither of Cheney’s Illegal Programs Was Effective.”</p>
<p>That statement revolves on the goals of the person who is defining “effective.”  From Cheney’s perspective, it was totally effective.</p>
<p>The PSP was such a closely guarded secret that few of the operational people who were really hunting terrorists were read into the program; and, when PSP information reached those operational people, its provenance was disguised so they could not distinguish between what was useful and what was noise. </p>
<p>This program was obviously not designed to help anti-terrorist agencies find the terrorists.</p>
<p>The operations people were not setting the targets for the information capture, but only those priviledged few who were “read” into the program. </p>
<p>Likely Cheney and Addington were setting the targets and obtaining the results personally.  We can be sure that journalists were on the list, as whistle-blowers have told us that journalists were prime targets.  Then, of course, there would be Democratic and Republican congressional representatives, the administration’s own top officials and employees.<br />
Financial institutions and other corporations?  Why not?  </p>
<p>Information was power to Cheney — and through PSP he could access information on whoever and whatever he wanted. </p>
<p>Let us hope that a congressional investigation will demand to obtain the names and job capacities of everyone who set the targets and those of all who were targeted.  What a massive “enemies list” that will produce.  Nixon will look like a piker compared to Cheney.</p>
<p>Maybe once our spineless congress people discover their own names, telephone and e-mail records in Cheney’s private information bank, they will finally put impeachment on the table.  It still can be done.</p>
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		<title>By: esseff44</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-172027</link>
		<dc:creator>esseff44</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-172027</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Right, and all packaged in the ‘it saves lives’ meme that Cheney and company used to cover torture, wiretaps or whatever they wanted to do w/o regard to law.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, and all packaged in the ‘it saves lives’ meme that Cheney and company used to cover torture, wiretaps or whatever they wanted to do w/o regard to law.</p>
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		<title>By: readerOfTeaLeaves</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-171991</link>
		<dc:creator>readerOfTeaLeaves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 23:25:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-171991</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Follow the money. If only we could. &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thank you!!!!!!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;You just synthesized what I was groping toward, but couldn’t quite distill.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And there has to be more ‘black money’ involved than any person can get their head around.  This is the Dick Cheney who refused to intervene when Enron was politically destabilizing the entire state of California — an episode that we’re still seeing ripples from today.  And add on the other ‘economic tools’ overseen by Phil Gramm, and it sure looks like economic treason.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><strong>Follow the money. If only we could. </strong></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Thank you!!!!!!</p>
<p>You just synthesized what I was groping toward, but couldn’t quite distill.</p>
<p>And there has to be more ‘black money’ involved than any person can get their head around.  This is the Dick Cheney who refused to intervene when Enron was politically destabilizing the entire state of California — an episode that we’re still seeing ripples from today.  And add on the other ‘economic tools’ overseen by Phil Gramm, and it sure looks like economic treason.</p>
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		<title>By: readerOfTeaLeaves</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-171989</link>
		<dc:creator>readerOfTeaLeaves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 23:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-171989</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I sincerely hope that he is because I have a fervent desire for him to be an international example to humans globally that the long, slow reach of justice can and does work.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If Cheney were to account legally, through due process, it’s my view that could take the some of the heat out of a lot of the frustrations and disgust that we and others around the globe feel.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Yeah, I’m a dreamer…&lt;br /&gt;
But it does seem as if some kind of subterranean shifts are occuring in pretty rapid jolts right now.  Something’s weird…&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I sincerely hope that he is because I have a fervent desire for him to be an international example to humans globally that the long, slow reach of justice can and does work.</p>
<p>If Cheney were to account legally, through due process, it’s my view that could take the some of the heat out of a lot of the frustrations and disgust that we and others around the globe feel.</p>
<p>Yeah, I’m a dreamer…<br />
But it does seem as if some kind of subterranean shifts are occuring in pretty rapid jolts right now.  Something’s weird…</p>
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		<title>By: fatster</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-171983</link>
		<dc:creator>fatster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 23:08:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-171983</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Follow the money.  If only we could.  He was terrizin &lt;strike&gt;Congress&lt;/strike&gt; Washington, DC, while  simultaneously  vacuuming data from everywhere through their various “surveillance” efforts.  They didn’t learn that much about the terrists, but they sure got a mountain of data that could come in handy for other purposes.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Follow the money.  If only we could.  He was terrizin <strike>Congress</strike> Washington, DC, while  simultaneously  vacuuming data from everywhere through their various “surveillance” efforts.  They didn’t learn that much about the terrists, but they sure got a mountain of data that could come in handy for other purposes.</p>
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		<title>By: fatster</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-171975</link>
		<dc:creator>fatster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 22:54:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/10/both-of-cheneys-illegal-programs-were-not-effective/#comment-171975</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;With this group of thugs, you actually need full-body armor.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With this group of thugs, you actually need full-body armor.</p>
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