Comments on: The CIA IG Report’s “Other” Contents http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/ Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:48:32 -0500 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: mediaskeptic http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167675 mediaskeptic Mon, 22 Jun 2009 22:14:35 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167675 <p>Without the underlying material referenced in the OLC Memos, (in unredacted form) or some new documents or revelations, it’s highly unlikely that the real story will ever come out, other than what people can piece together from what’s already out. Unless the DOJ suddenly develops an interest in justice, I doubt that, even the imo clearly illegal acts of the “13 Most Wanted to be Forgotten”, subjects in EW’s piece, will ever be put before a jury,(at least in a criminal court) in this country anyway. Hopefully the civil courts or maybe the World Court will take more interest in this fiasco.</p> Without the underlying material referenced in the OLC Memos, (in unredacted form) or some new documents or revelations, it’s highly unlikely that the real story will ever come out, other than what people can piece together from what’s already out. Unless the DOJ suddenly develops an interest in justice, I doubt that, even the imo clearly illegal acts of the “13 Most Wanted to be Forgotten”, subjects in EW’s piece, will ever be put before a jury,(at least in a criminal court) in this country anyway. Hopefully the civil courts or maybe the World Court will take more interest in this fiasco.

]]> By: mediaskeptic http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167666 mediaskeptic Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:44:45 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167666 <p>Actually after 83 times. One more for the road I guess.</p> Actually after 83 times. One more for the road I guess.

]]> By: Mary http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167665 Mary Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:41:16 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167665 <p>Yeah - she was the “spike haired” chick with the “I Am God, To Hell With Becoming” t-shirt and Mayer confirmed she was one and the same. And non-covert, but sometime after the IG report I think, after the el-Masri situation, she was made covert so no one could talk about her involvement anymore. Despite the torture proclivity, she musta signed someone’s notes with x-es and o-hes. </p> <p>I have a hard time seeing her saying that torture wasn’t needed anymore though. So I’d guess either other officials or that she was with other officials. She would be the one wanting to fondle the goat while he was being slaughtered, not so much the one to show up with a tofu sandwhich alternative.</p> Yeah – she was the “spike haired” chick with the “I Am God, To Hell With Becoming” t-shirt and Mayer confirmed she was one and the same. And non-covert, but sometime after the IG report I think, after the el-Masri situation, she was made covert so no one could talk about her involvement anymore. Despite the torture proclivity, she musta signed someone’s notes with x-es and o-hes.

I have a hard time seeing her saying that torture wasn’t needed anymore though. So I’d guess either other officials or that she was with other officials. She would be the one wanting to fondle the goat while he was being slaughtered, not so much the one to show up with a tofu sandwhich alternative.

]]> By: emptywheel http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167658 emptywheel Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:21:00 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167658 <p>Well, and the chances are the person was one and the same person–the woman who had a hunch el-Masri was a bad guy and as such pushed to get him detained. Isn’t she teh same one who wanted to go see torture firsthand? The one who got promoted for her barbarous behavior?</p> Well, and the chances are the person was one and the same person–the woman who had a hunch el-Masri was a bad guy and as such pushed to get him detained. Isn’t she teh same one who wanted to go see torture firsthand? The one who got promoted for her barbarous behavior?

]]> By: emptywheel http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167657 emptywheel Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:19:31 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167657 <p>Agreed that it wasn’t permitted, technically, under Bybee Two (which separates out stress positions from “sleep deprivation”). But we also know that it did, in fact, occur.</p> Agreed that it wasn’t permitted, technically, under Bybee Two (which separates out stress positions from “sleep deprivation”). But we also know that it did, in fact, occur.

]]> By: Mary http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167654 Mary Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:13:29 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167654 <p>And don’t you wonder what the special knowledge was, of the “officials” who were “dispatched” from “CIA Headquarters” that they could make the determination as to why after 82 waterboardings new waterbaordings were not needed?</p> <p>Doctors, lawyer’s ?? bakers and indian chiefs? </p> <p>Did one have a crystal ball? </p> <p>Whether or not the “factual predicates” of a belief are deemed to be false ARE, though, VERY IMPORTANT vis a vis a reliance opinion. If someone is supposed to be a High Value Detainee who is a member of Al-Qaeda and an unlawful enemy combatant, it does matter if they are instead a spare German picked up in Macedonia. “Reasonable” belief that you were torturing someone else doesn’t cut it. That’s why the opinions themselves referenced the fact that they ONLY apply if their underlying factual predicates are correct.</p> And don’t you wonder what the special knowledge was, of the “officials” who were “dispatched” from “CIA Headquarters” that they could make the determination as to why after 82 waterboardings new waterbaordings were not needed?

Doctors, lawyer’s ?? bakers and indian chiefs?

Did one have a crystal ball?

Whether or not the “factual predicates” of a belief are deemed to be false ARE, though, VERY IMPORTANT vis a vis a reliance opinion. If someone is supposed to be a High Value Detainee who is a member of Al-Qaeda and an unlawful enemy combatant, it does matter if they are instead a spare German picked up in Macedonia. “Reasonable” belief that you were torturing someone else doesn’t cut it. That’s why the opinions themselves referenced the fact that they ONLY apply if their underlying factual predicates are correct.

]]> By: Mary http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167650 Mary Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:06:31 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167650 <p>Witness statements might catch the cables etc. too, if they asked witnesses about them, they would be exhibits to the statements.</p> Witness statements might catch the cables etc. too, if they asked witnesses about them, they would be exhibits to the statements.

]]> By: drational http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167646 drational Mon, 22 Jun 2009 20:58:46 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167646 <p>I think Egyptian “suspension” from bars by shackles is different from what was approved to be done by the CIA. “Techniques” specifically prohibits “suspension”, and the arms are supposed to be kept below shoulder level (although raising arms above the head is permitted for up to 2 hours, suspending the detainees weight is not permitted). If the detainee falls asleep and suspends himself from the wall anchors, there is closed circuit TV for the guard to come hose him with frigid water.</p> <p>IMHO actual suspension was probably too much like crucifixion for the good mormons and catholics doing the torturing, especially with the loincloth-like diapers.</p> I think Egyptian “suspension” from bars by shackles is different from what was approved to be done by the CIA. “Techniques” specifically prohibits “suspension”, and the arms are supposed to be kept below shoulder level (although raising arms above the head is permitted for up to 2 hours, suspending the detainees weight is not permitted). If the detainee falls asleep and suspends himself from the wall anchors, there is closed circuit TV for the guard to come hose him with frigid water.

IMHO actual suspension was probably too much like crucifixion for the good mormons and catholics doing the torturing, especially with the loincloth-like diapers.

]]> By: mediaskeptic http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167643 mediaskeptic Mon, 22 Jun 2009 20:54:04 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167643 <p>Ya, the fact that they did him up 82 times previously would somewhat diminish their credibility on that score.</p> Ya, the fact that they did him up 82 times previously would somewhat diminish their credibility on that score.

]]> By: emptywheel http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167639 emptywheel Mon, 22 Jun 2009 20:46:54 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/22/the-cia-ig-reports-other-contents/#comment-167639 <p>Keep in mind that the IG had to be aware of that MANY of the “reasonable good faith beliefs” had proven to be wrong by this point. </p> <p>Though I do wonder whether that passage was written before or after Helgerson’s confrontation with Cheney.</p> Keep in mind that the IG had to be aware of that MANY of the “reasonable good faith beliefs” had proven to be wrong by this point.

Though I do wonder whether that passage was written before or after Helgerson’s confrontation with Cheney.

]]>