Comments on: Eric Holder Demagogues Hate Crimes

By: bmaz

bmaz — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:24:00 +0000

I fully understand the feeling, emotion and intent behind hate crimes, and I too share all of that. As a lawyer though, I have very serious problems with them for the equal protection issues I have described. Above and beyond that though, and almost as troubling, is the uneven and suspect manner in which such provisions are applied in practice; specifically they are used as a selective bludgeon in some applications, but left off the table against others that are just as applicable if not more so. They become nothing more than an arbitrary and capricious tool in the hands of prosecutors and law enforcement. The general citizenry feels all warm and fuzzy over things like this, but has either no idea, or a false idea, as to how such provisions really play out in the trenches of the criminal justice system. It is not pretty or fair.

Thank you one and all for a great discussion.

By: cbl2

cbl2 — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:56:41 +0000

you are indeed my pal

so appreciate you responding. again, IANAL. but I also don’t want you or bmaz to think I am being led around my by heart or my passions. as to thought crimes, would like to think I could be like that young man from ACLU (jewish, descendant of holocaust survivors) who defended the idjit nazi’s right to speak in Skokie. messy stuff this democracy biz.

but I do think there is a place for hate crimes, clearly I lack the knowledge/vocabulary to express it

thank you again for responding. and thank you bmaz for a thoughtful post

By: jayt

jayt — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:49:10 +0000

but what about Millineryman @ 49 ?? how is it “special treatment” when the only reason for the assault was teh gay ? obviously, IANAL, but is there ever any ethical room for “special circumstances” ?

sorry I was no longer here for your question.

So say some guy blasts me under the mistaken assumption that I’m gay. (which wouldn’t happen easily - click on my “f”) but say that it happens.

What the fuck do I care what his emotional ‘justification’ is?

I don’t; and neither should any court of law. A battery is a battery. Intimidation (a felony) is Intimidation. Those laws are in place and work quite nicely.

I am maybe open to a discussion as to whether “hate” motivations might properly be considered as an aggravator at sentencing, but I think I’m probably against that as well.

Do we really need, after the reign of GWB, more thought crimes?

I truly do not mean to seem insensitive, especially to MM, but there is plenty of stuff already on the books to take care of any situation that I can imagine.

Anyway - sorry to come in so late.

Your pal,……

By: fatster

fatster — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:35:02 +0000

“And Scheck and Neufeld won’t be doing all that much for a time, as much of the Innocence Project was supported by Foundation Grants on the part of a foundation that parked all its capital with Bernie Madoff. They have apparently had to lay off about 80% of their employees, and may have to close down.”

Oh, no!

By: bmaz

bmaz — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:05:03 +0000

Yeah, I knew about that. I would say it is criminal, but that is obvious. It is a shame of horrendous proportions. Peter and Barry are not without their own resources though, and I think NACDL will help out some. So the work will go on; but it hurts. Badly. I do not know either of them particularly well, but both are dogged on this subject; they will stick with it.

By: Sara

Sara — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 02:32:20 +0000

“Of course those intrepid student journalists and law clinics, professors and students also have Barry Scheck and Pete Neufeld behind them. By the way, today is the 15th anniversary of the White Bronco Slow Speed chase involving Barry’s most famous client.”

And Scheck and Neufeld won’t be doing all that much for a time, as much of the Innocence Project was supported by Foundation Grants on the part of a foundation that parked all its capital with Bernie Madoff. They have apparently had to lay off about 80% of their employees, and may have to close down.

You know, if it isn’t corruption of the actual administration and execution of the law, it is corruption in the financial sector that screws up things like the Innocence Project. Too bad they can’t find another OJ type client who could provide years of work at high cost that might be used to support such a project.

By: bmaz

bmaz — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:58:05 +0000

Of course those intrepid student journalists and law clinics, professors and students also have Barry Scheck and Pete Neufeld behind them. By the way, today is the 15th anniversary of the White Bronco Slow Speed chase involving Barry’s most famous client.

By: bmaz

bmaz — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:54:34 +0000

I am more than familiar with Niewert thank you so much. In fact Dave was here earlier. You do realize that Dave used to be an integral part of FDL don’t you? Jeebus. How about you start reading the Constitution and equal protection law. There, now we’re even.

By: bmaz

bmaz — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:50:16 +0000

That is the point; you are effectively, even if not directly, creating suspect classes for different treatment under the law. If you make it universal/equal as you suggest, there will be no difference in how individuals are treated and you have frustrated you initial purpose, which was to create a different framework for certain actors/victims.

But, again, these are long and pretty ingrained things for me, I started fighting this both with proponents of the legislation in my jurisdiction, and with prosecutors and courts in actual cases. I will also fully admit that I am fairly jaded from having seen up close how prosecutors use the provisions, and that is mostly as a bludgeon for bargaining power. And also, I fully understand that most appellate law, including at SCOTUS is against my position (although there are distinguishable points because they often have often looked at this from the aspect of sentencing discretion as opposed to root constitutionality).

By: Mile23

Mile23 — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:49:51 +0000

Note to bmaz: Start reading David Neiwert. Start here: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2.....rance.html