i appreciate so much this historical background, and the many others you have provided over time. i was thinking recently of you in the midst of reading all this cia discussion, given your interest in the history of the agency.

history stories of this sort give a problem depth and focus – and serve as a counter to blind “hope” or simple optimism.

don’t know how to clean up a dirty trick like this — but I assume it happens all the time, or at least it did during the Bush/Cheney years.

Aside from pointblank refusal (which as noted can have their, um, pitfalls), I suppose after it’s been pulled once on a person, they could anticipate it publically the next time such a situation comes around: “…and they’ll send me somewhere so I can get all the ‘facts’ —only I won’t even be able to share the ‘facts’ with all of you afterward, my fellow citizens, because they will be secret ‘facts.’ …”

No the reason why the center for the treatment of torture survivors is here has to do with former Governor Rudy Perpich’s interests in the first such hospital which was established in Kobenhavn, Denmark in the 1970’s. Rudy served two full terms as Governor, but it was divided by a one term Republican — during which time Rudy converted himself into an international businessman, worked out of Vienna for IBM, and proceeded to wander all over Europe picking up interesting ideas, and suggesting that Minnesota consider doing something similar. It just happened that two mansions along the river, about a block from the medical school and the University Hospitals became vacant while Rudy was out looking for ideas, so he raised the money to convert those into living facilities, and the actual therapy part of the hospital shares space with the rest of the 4 block square massive facility. In fact the mansions were, for many years, the International Student Center (I had an office there once for 3 months) and the Foreign Student Advisor’s offices and all. They got a new facility, and the mansions were restored to former glory, and are now residences for torture survivors. A lot of what they do these days is train staff for various NGO’s that actually run programs in places with recent torture problems. They did a huge program for Croatia, Serbia, Kosovo and Bosnia. They have also trained staff for Afghanistan. Since 9/11 it has been quite difficult to bring many torture survivors to the US for treatment. They have a quite close relationship with the American Refugee Committee, which is headquartered here.

But the key person in getting the center going was Rudy Perpich. Rudy and his brother George, were second generation Croatians, sons of the Iron Range, sons of hard rock miners, who used the GI Bill to go to Dental School, and set up their dental practice on the Range — and based on their contact with patients, and their family’s role in the United Steel Workers Union, and dedication to the fortunes of the DFL — both brothers were elected to the State Senate (huge margins), and Rudy eventually became President of the Senate, and then Lt. Governor — and when Mondale became VP in 77, the then Governor Wendell Anderson resigned in a deal where Rudy became Governor and appointed Wendy to the US Senate. Wendy did not survive the next election as Minnesotans don’t particularly care for such games. But Rudy survived, and became a true character as Governor. He still did teeth to stay in practice, he used to get away from his State Patrol guards, and drive around in the small towns visiting cafes and talking politics with the locals — at least one day a week, but he also fell in love with Austrian and London Tailors, and became one of the best dressed men in America during his 4 years out of office when he was selling computers in Europe. He was one of the few public figures to predict the fall of the Communist Regimes in E. Europe — his prediction was based entirely on his experience flogging IBM PC’s in Europe.

In addition to the Hospital for torture victims, Rudy and his wife also imported art schools. We have residential schools at the High School level for Theatre, Dance, graphic and plastic arts, music — etc., all based on the French and Austrian Academy traditions. Rudy’s last brainstorm — which he did not bring to fruition — was to go in with the University in Vienna, buy an old estate (16th century in part) east of Vienna but about where the Czech, Hungarian and Austrian borders come together, to establish an international center to study major world river basins undergoing Global Warming. (That was in the late 80’s — Rudy was a little ahead of his time.) He just thought that with Minnesota having its major University on both banks of the Mississippi — it would be a good fit to grow state leadership in the study of major river basins. Anyhow, Rudy lost his last election over the joke of buying an Austrian Castle. (Evil Republicans with no imagination.) He lost in 1990, and died two or three years later of cancer, which killed him in a matter of weeks after diagnosis. But when Rudy was in his second term, and trying to get the legislature to dream about a Castle on the Danube — I was in Austria, and took an afternoon to search out this castle, and it was fascinating. It was built on a Roman Ruin that was being excavated by Archeologists, and was close to the airport — and within an hour of Vienna. Asking around, I discovered from the caretaker that I was the only person from Minnesota who had ever come to take a look. In the meantime the papers were crucifying Rudy on his desire for an Austrian Castle.

Maybe you can tell — I rather like progressive office holders who are a little bit colorful. Didn’t vote for him, but I liked Ventura too in the same sort of way.

By the way, tomorrow, Tuesday, is decision day for the Minnesota Supremes — knock on wood, cross fingers, that they are about finished polishing their awaited opinion.

Congress knows about the FISA applications made, but not about the spying that took place, whether it was Clinton’s warrantless Latin American program or Bush’s al-Qaeda calling program, unless someone with NSA is more honest than Hayden and has an outlet for that honesty. That’s what doesn’t exist under FISA – oversight of what NSA is actually doing or outlets for honesty.

Case in point – Tamm is still be persecuted and prosecuted by the Obama administration – decent people didn’t really have an out under FISA and Obama will happily take the gain offered him politically by the sacrifices of whistleblowers, but then crucify them to keep himself enshrined in power and on the right footing with the guys he really wants to schmooze – the Brennans and Kappes and Gates, not the Tagubas and Tamms

imo ymmv

That’s not to say I think FISA was perfect. I argued at the time that it was a mistake to allow the NSA to continue dragnet surveillance of satellite communications. Most of all, it was a mistake to enshrine that level of secrecy in a court system. You’re right on target when you point out that the main issue is “secrecy”.

Both good points. And both indicate that without an enforcement mechanism for Exec crimes involving classified into that is outside the DOJ, you are really up a creek

Why do you think FISA was reasonably successful before the coup? I don’t think there were any consequences much to the Townsend/FBI fibbified applicatons to the FISCt before 9/11, other than Lamberth kicking Townsend out of his court once he finally was wised up to what had been going on.

There was never any oversight mechanism on what NSA was collecting and there are stories of Clinton also having a warrantless interception program for US citizen’s calls in connection with his Latin American drug war efforts – and I don’t think anything much happened with that either.

We may be thinking down differnt lines, but I’m not seeing the efficacy and in large part it has to do with the reliance of all laws, and in particular laws involving these “secrecy” issues, upon a DOJ that pursues Exec branch criminals.

You can’t fix any of this with what we have as a Dept of Justice. It’s nothing worth having on this issue, whether you are looking at Ashcroft or Goldsmith or Holder or McNulty or Clement or Kagan or …