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	<title>Comments on: Porter Goss Escalates Attacks on Pelosi and Harman&#8211;But Admits CIA Broke the Law</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/</link>
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		<title>By: flyarm616</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-151516</link>
		<dc:creator>flyarm616</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:11:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/#comment-151516</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;INDEED.. like a picture in Mexico Jan 22,1963 with the following people pictured..&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Porter Goss, Barry Seal, William Houston Seymour, Frank Sturgis,Felix Rodriquez&lt;br /&gt;
Operation 40………&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>INDEED.. like a picture in Mexico Jan 22,1963 with the following people pictured..</p>
<p>Porter Goss, Barry Seal, William Houston Seymour, Frank Sturgis,Felix Rodriquez<br />
Operation 40………</p>
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		<title>By: Continuum</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-151362</link>
		<dc:creator>Continuum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 23:11:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/#comment-151362</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Goss is perhaps “pissing off” the wrong people.  Currently, the Dems are in control of the White House, House of Representatives, and Senate.  Any of which could initiate investigations that would (probably will) lead to recommendations for criminal prosecution.  Pelosi is in a powerful position from which she could pressure Obama (if he needs pressure) to direct the DOJ to investigate.  Pelosi can likewise ensure that several of the House committees being investigations. Holder may be compelled by the facts to appoint a special prosecutor, should he wish the prosecution to be separate from his personal control.  Given the above analysis, Goss appears to have much to worry about.  As do Yoo, Bybee, Gonzales, up to and including Cheney.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Goss is perhaps “pissing off” the wrong people.  Currently, the Dems are in control of the White House, House of Representatives, and Senate.  Any of which could initiate investigations that would (probably will) lead to recommendations for criminal prosecution.  Pelosi is in a powerful position from which she could pressure Obama (if he needs pressure) to direct the DOJ to investigate.  Pelosi can likewise ensure that several of the House committees being investigations. Holder may be compelled by the facts to appoint a special prosecutor, should he wish the prosecution to be separate from his personal control.  Given the above analysis, Goss appears to have much to worry about.  As do Yoo, Bybee, Gonzales, up to and including Cheney.</p>
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		<title>By: frankly0</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-151320</link>
		<dc:creator>frankly0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 21:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/#comment-151320</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Certainly Goss and the Bush administration tried to do what they could to hide from the Democrats in Congress all that had been going on with respect to torture, and, apparently, pretended to be discussing, as hypotheticals, things that were already quite actual.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But I think we need to note the cowardice of the Dems even in the face of the limited knowledge they did possess. Even the letter from Harman is inexcusably mild in its reproach, such as it is, of what was being discussed, hypothetical or not. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In this sordid affair, it appears no courage was to be found anywhere. Not a single political leader, so far as I can make out, managed to take a firm stand against what so clearly was wrong and, indeed, simply evil. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I can’t see any reason to give the Democrats a pass on this. I don’t see how they are legally responsible for what went on, but their own moral culpability seems unquestionable.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Certainly Goss and the Bush administration tried to do what they could to hide from the Democrats in Congress all that had been going on with respect to torture, and, apparently, pretended to be discussing, as hypotheticals, things that were already quite actual.</p>
<p>But I think we need to note the cowardice of the Dems even in the face of the limited knowledge they did possess. Even the letter from Harman is inexcusably mild in its reproach, such as it is, of what was being discussed, hypothetical or not. </p>
<p>In this sordid affair, it appears no courage was to be found anywhere. Not a single political leader, so far as I can make out, managed to take a firm stand against what so clearly was wrong and, indeed, simply evil. </p>
<p>I can’t see any reason to give the Democrats a pass on this. I don’t see how they are legally responsible for what went on, but their own moral culpability seems unquestionable.</p>
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		<title>By: Arishia</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-151312</link>
		<dc:creator>Arishia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 21:21:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/#comment-151312</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Exactly.  This was a ‘program’.  It began with nudity, hoods, incontinence with and without a diaper, shaving beards and heads, cavity searches, sleep deprivation for days at a time, moving from place to place, dietary restriction, cold or heat, stress positions, constant loud noise, and then the interrogations began with walling, hosing, submerging in cold water, slapping, boxing, dogs, waterboarding, etc.  I wonder if there are records that show what was done, when, and for how long–for each prisoner.  I doubt anyone would unclassify that even if it does still exist.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly.  This was a ‘program’.  It began with nudity, hoods, incontinence with and without a diaper, shaving beards and heads, cavity searches, sleep deprivation for days at a time, moving from place to place, dietary restriction, cold or heat, stress positions, constant loud noise, and then the interrogations began with walling, hosing, submerging in cold water, slapping, boxing, dogs, waterboarding, etc.  I wonder if there are records that show what was done, when, and for how long–for each prisoner.  I doubt anyone would unclassify that even if it does still exist.</p>
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		<title>By: Sand</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-151310</link>
		<dc:creator>Sand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 21:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/#comment-151310</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Misquoted… it appears Rozen’s source, not Stein’s said Mueller was the first choice.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Misquoted… it appears Rozen’s source, not Stein’s said Mueller was the first choice.</p>
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		<title>By: fatster</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-151309</link>
		<dc:creator>fatster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 21:19:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/#comment-151309</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;This is the first time I’ve ever seen everyone in that picture identified, so I’m glad you posted the link to it.  A stepfather was the spitting image of one of those guys and it was his habit to get drunk, grab his machete and brandish it about while stomping around the place loudly cursing Fidel.  Fortunately, I was a tad too old at the time for the stepfather’s outbursts to require years of therapy to overcome.  Instead, I developed a great deal of interest in the 26th of July Movement and the struggles of poor people everywhere–and eventually attained my own liberation.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;(No, that stepfather was not the guy in the picture, though the resemblance was startling. And nauseating.)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the first time I’ve ever seen everyone in that picture identified, so I’m glad you posted the link to it.  A stepfather was the spitting image of one of those guys and it was his habit to get drunk, grab his machete and brandish it about while stomping around the place loudly cursing Fidel.  Fortunately, I was a tad too old at the time for the stepfather’s outbursts to require years of therapy to overcome.  Instead, I developed a great deal of interest in the 26th of July Movement and the struggles of poor people everywhere–and eventually attained my own liberation.</p>
<p>(No, that stepfather was not the guy in the picture, though the resemblance was startling. And nauseating.)</p>
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		<title>By: Sand</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-151290</link>
		<dc:creator>Sand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 20:54:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/#comment-151290</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I really don’t think the plan was to set Harman up.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I question this theory:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;— JTA: Note the operative verbs: Lede: It was Goss who “concluded” that the tap required more action. He drew this conclusion not because Harman’s alleged involvement was raised with him,…”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.jta.org/politics/article/2009/04/24/1004622/why-did-porter-goss-finger-jane-harman&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://blogs.jta.org/politics/…..ane-harman&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“Concluded” after he may have been advised? There’s nothing in the NYTimes article that I can see that he ‘alone’ concluded Harman had completed a crime?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Who is to say the investigative team brought it to ‘his’ attention? — Here we really do need the timeline… when was the suspected Israel spy FISA warrant up for renewal — and when was Harman making deals on the tapes? Do these dates really coincide? It supposedly was an FBI case — according to Stein the investigative team on Harman wanted Mueller to sign off on the warrant [for Harman]?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Stein: “A former intelligence official familiar with the matter told Foreign Policy on condition of anonymity Monday that Goss had been asked due to the unavailability of FBI director Robert Mueller to certify a FISA warrant that was seemingly triggered by a captured communication between Harman and someone who was already being surveilled by the U.S. government (presumably, the suspected ‘Israeli agent’).”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/spytalk/2009/04/harman-aipac-nsa-what-did-i-kn.html?referrer=js&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/sp…..eferrer=js&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Then we are told Goss found problems with the Harman tapes during a ‘periodic review’ stage — ok.  I just think it too movie-ish for Goss and Goss alone to go through mounds of transcripts and say ‘hey we’ve got her’ so what can we do with this information 4 years down the road when I’m out of office.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Not withstanding the fact that it appears an intelligence official[s] had to go behind Goss’s back to alert Pelosi — that Harman had been caught. They might have felt they had to do this because, maybe, their request for an appropriate surveillance warrant from Mueller &amp;/or Goss were getting stymied?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Also, what agency[s] decided that Harman had carried out a ‘completed crime’ — was that on the impetuous of Goss as well — to confirm legal status?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I just think there are too many unanswered questions — to immediately jump to the conclusion that the hit was made on Harman because of his sole hatred for Harman — I’m sure Harman [and Pelosi] are not his only enemies.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really don’t think the plan was to set Harman up.</p>
<p>I question this theory:</p>
<p>— JTA: Note the operative verbs: Lede: It was Goss who “concluded” that the tap required more action. He drew this conclusion not because Harman’s alleged involvement was raised with him,…”</p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.jta.org/politics/article/2009/04/24/1004622/why-did-porter-goss-finger-jane-harman" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.jta.org/politics/…..ane-harman</a></p>
<p>“Concluded” after he may have been advised? There’s nothing in the NYTimes article that I can see that he ‘alone’ concluded Harman had completed a crime?</p>
<p>Who is to say the investigative team brought it to ‘his’ attention? — Here we really do need the timeline… when was the suspected Israel spy FISA warrant up for renewal — and when was Harman making deals on the tapes? Do these dates really coincide? It supposedly was an FBI case — according to Stein the investigative team on Harman wanted Mueller to sign off on the warrant [for Harman]?</p>
<p>Stein: “A former intelligence official familiar with the matter told Foreign Policy on condition of anonymity Monday that Goss had been asked due to the unavailability of FBI director Robert Mueller to certify a FISA warrant that was seemingly triggered by a captured communication between Harman and someone who was already being surveilled by the U.S. government (presumably, the suspected ‘Israeli agent’).”</p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/spytalk/2009/04/harman-aipac-nsa-what-did-i-kn.html?referrer=js" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/sp…..eferrer=js</a></p>
<p>Then we are told Goss found problems with the Harman tapes during a ‘periodic review’ stage — ok.  I just think it too movie-ish for Goss and Goss alone to go through mounds of transcripts and say ‘hey we’ve got her’ so what can we do with this information 4 years down the road when I’m out of office.</p>
<p>Not withstanding the fact that it appears an intelligence official[s] had to go behind Goss’s back to alert Pelosi — that Harman had been caught. They might have felt they had to do this because, maybe, their request for an appropriate surveillance warrant from Mueller &amp;/or Goss were getting stymied?</p>
<p>Also, what agency[s] decided that Harman had carried out a ‘completed crime’ — was that on the impetuous of Goss as well — to confirm legal status?</p>
<p>I just think there are too many unanswered questions — to immediately jump to the conclusion that the hit was made on Harman because of his sole hatred for Harman — I’m sure Harman [and Pelosi] are not his only enemies.</p>
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		<title>By: SparklestheIguana</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-151276</link>
		<dc:creator>SparklestheIguana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 20:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;You are so right - and much more emphasis needs to be placed on this.  This is why it is so irritating to read about Christopher Hitchens being waterboarded, and Sean Hannity volunteering to be waterboarded - as if that experience could possibly duplicate, or even approach, what one of these detainees was subjected to.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are so right &#8211; and much more emphasis needs to be placed on this.  This is why it is so irritating to read about Christopher Hitchens being waterboarded, and Sean Hannity volunteering to be waterboarded &#8211; as if that experience could possibly duplicate, or even approach, what one of these detainees was subjected to.</p>
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		<title>By: rkilowatt</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-151246</link>
		<dc:creator>rkilowatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:14:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/#comment-151246</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;this pic from “Barry and the Boys” cover” of Operation 40 fame&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2009/01/9-11-link-to-lockerbie.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/.....erbie.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this pic from “Barry and the Boys” cover” of Operation 40 fame<br /><a href="http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2009/01/9-11-link-to-lockerbie.html" rel="nofollow">http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/&#8230;..erbie.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: freepatriot</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-151239</link>
		<dc:creator>freepatriot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 18:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/25/porter-goss-attacks-on-pelosi-and-harman-but-admits-cia-broke-the-law/#comment-151239</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;the underplaying of the combining of techniques - has been bugging me for a while&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;that’s because lyndie england and mr grainer (don’t know his first name) were following orders, using techniques that would prepare the victims for later treatment&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;once you draw a straight line between lyndie england and george bush, there can be NO DOUBT of george bush’s guilt&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;we KNOW lyndie england committed a crime&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;george bush said so&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><strong>the underplaying of the combining of techniques &#8211; has been bugging me for a while</strong></p>
</blockquote>
<p>that’s because lyndie england and mr grainer (don’t know his first name) were following orders, using techniques that would prepare the victims for later treatment</p>
<p>once you draw a straight line between lyndie england and george bush, there can be NO DOUBT of george bush’s guilt</p>
<p>we KNOW lyndie england committed a crime</p>
<p>george bush said so</p>
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