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	<title>Comments on: Did Cheney Order Up Abu Zubaydah&#8217;s 83rd Waterboarding?</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/did-cheney-order-up-abu-zubaydahs-83rd-waterboarding/</link>
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		<title>By: perris</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/did-cheney-order-up-abu-zubaydahs-83rd-waterboarding/comment-page-1/#comment-150360</link>
		<dc:creator>perris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;hagel is not such a bad guy after all&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hagel is not such a bad guy after all</p>
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		<title>By: Phoenix Woman</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/did-cheney-order-up-abu-zubaydahs-83rd-waterboarding/comment-page-1/#comment-150275</link>
		<dc:creator>Phoenix Woman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:31:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;The problem here is that Colin Powell pretty much backs up Schwarzkopf’s story.  Both gents spent a ton of time trying (and eventually succeeding) in convincing Cheney that they simply couldn’t do things like drop the 82nd Airborne into downtown Baghdad, hundreds of miles from any supply lines or backup.   (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0817-02.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Remember when Chuck Hagel, during the 2002 run-up to invading Iraq again, mockingly referenced the idea of dropping the 82nd Airborne into Baghdad?&lt;/a&gt;  He was making a zing at Cheney’s desire to do just that a little over a decade earlier.)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem here is that Colin Powell pretty much backs up Schwarzkopf’s story.  Both gents spent a ton of time trying (and eventually succeeding) in convincing Cheney that they simply couldn’t do things like drop the 82nd Airborne into downtown Baghdad, hundreds of miles from any supply lines or backup.   (<a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0817-02.htm" rel="nofollow">Remember when Chuck Hagel, during the 2002 run-up to invading Iraq again, mockingly referenced the idea of dropping the 82nd Airborne into Baghdad?</a>  He was making a zing at Cheney’s desire to do just that a little over a decade earlier.)</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/did-cheney-order-up-abu-zubaydahs-83rd-waterboarding/comment-page-1/#comment-150129</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 02:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Lesson 1: Don’t set your teacup down on the grasshopper!&lt;br /&gt;
Heh.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lesson 1: Don’t set your teacup down on the grasshopper!<br />
Heh.</p>
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		<title>By: Minnesotachuck</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/did-cheney-order-up-abu-zubaydahs-83rd-waterboarding/comment-page-1/#comment-150040</link>
		<dc:creator>Minnesotachuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 00:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;PW, there is another narrative that I suspect is more on target.  It is found in Robert Coram’s biography entitled &lt;em&gt;Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed The Art of War&lt;/em&gt;, pages 422-425. The late &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategist)&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;USAF Col. John Boyd&lt;/a&gt; was, among many other accomplishments, the leader of the military reform movement that came to life in the late 1970s and achieved some traction in Congress in the early 1980s, fighting vainly to steer the Reagan administration steamroller away from doubling down on Pentagon business as usual.  Among his enthusiastic supporters on the hill were Congressman Richard Cheney and Senator Gary Hart. At the time Boyd was just beginning to be recognized for his strategy insights, which in the years since have come to be viewed as in the same league as those of Sun Tzu and Clausewitz.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;According to Coram, Cheney and others in the Pentagon were troubled by Schwartzkoph’s initial plan which was, as Cheney later put it to Michael Gordon and Bernard Trainor, the authors of &lt;em&gt;The Generals’ War&lt;/em&gt; “a high diddle diddle up the middle.”  It is known that Boyd was quietly commuting to Washington at that time from his retirement home in Florida, and was allegedly being smuggled into the E-ring during off hours, and via back doors and freight elevators.  During this period Boyd refused to discuss the matter with even his closest proteges and, in the process, unprecedentedly going so far as telling some of them to forget they had even had the conversation in which the subject was brought up.  Even then, more than fifteen years after his “retirement”, Boyd was viewed as so radioactive by the uniformed brass (especially those of his own service, the Air Force), that it was feared that if his involvement became known it might generate insurmountable resistance to his inputs being accepted.  Thus, in view of the likelihood that Schwartzkoph was dragged kicking and screaming into the famous “Left Hook” of Desert Storm, his apologia should be taken with a grain of salt.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In his life-long study of conflict, two of the core principles that Boyd derived are first that people are the key to successful outcomes, not equipment or tactics, and second that the moral element is key to people doing the right things.  Accordingly, he reaffirmed Sun Tzu’s idea that the most successful strategist is the one who manages to achieve his goals without needing to actually fight.  It has been a profound tragedy for the country that Cheney, for all his exposure to John Boyd’s ideas and ways of thinking, failed to absorb his most important insights.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;PS:  It’s unfortunate that I’m so untimely with this response, however I was within minutes of posting it this morning when my Comcast internet connection went dead for about four hours.  Just getting caught up now.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PW, there is another narrative that I suspect is more on target.  It is found in Robert Coram’s biography entitled <em>Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed The Art of War</em>, pages 422-425. The late <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategist)" rel="nofollow">USAF Col. John Boyd</a> was, among many other accomplishments, the leader of the military reform movement that came to life in the late 1970s and achieved some traction in Congress in the early 1980s, fighting vainly to steer the Reagan administration steamroller away from doubling down on Pentagon business as usual.  Among his enthusiastic supporters on the hill were Congressman Richard Cheney and Senator Gary Hart. At the time Boyd was just beginning to be recognized for his strategy insights, which in the years since have come to be viewed as in the same league as those of Sun Tzu and Clausewitz.  </p>
<p>According to Coram, Cheney and others in the Pentagon were troubled by Schwartzkoph’s initial plan which was, as Cheney later put it to Michael Gordon and Bernard Trainor, the authors of <em>The Generals’ War</em> “a high diddle diddle up the middle.”  It is known that Boyd was quietly commuting to Washington at that time from his retirement home in Florida, and was allegedly being smuggled into the E-ring during off hours, and via back doors and freight elevators.  During this period Boyd refused to discuss the matter with even his closest proteges and, in the process, unprecedentedly going so far as telling some of them to forget they had even had the conversation in which the subject was brought up.  Even then, more than fifteen years after his “retirement”, Boyd was viewed as so radioactive by the uniformed brass (especially those of his own service, the Air Force), that it was feared that if his involvement became known it might generate insurmountable resistance to his inputs being accepted.  Thus, in view of the likelihood that Schwartzkoph was dragged kicking and screaming into the famous “Left Hook” of Desert Storm, his apologia should be taken with a grain of salt.  </p>
<p>In his life-long study of conflict, two of the core principles that Boyd derived are first that people are the key to successful outcomes, not equipment or tactics, and second that the moral element is key to people doing the right things.  Accordingly, he reaffirmed Sun Tzu’s idea that the most successful strategist is the one who manages to achieve his goals without needing to actually fight.  It has been a profound tragedy for the country that Cheney, for all his exposure to John Boyd’s ideas and ways of thinking, failed to absorb his most important insights.</p>
<p>PS:  It’s unfortunate that I’m so untimely with this response, however I was within minutes of posting it this morning when my Comcast internet connection went dead for about four hours.  Just getting caught up now.</p>
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		<title>By: milly</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/did-cheney-order-up-abu-zubaydahs-83rd-waterboarding/comment-page-1/#comment-149938</link>
		<dc:creator>milly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Why would Cheney and Rumsfield know the WMDs were there? They sold Hussein the weapons? Remember the pictures of them grinning and shaking hands.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But Cheney being in control of NORAD on 9/11…being so sure there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Cheney and Rummy probably sold them “off the books.”Halliburton sure did a lot of that during the war.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would Cheney and Rumsfield know the WMDs were there? They sold Hussein the weapons? Remember the pictures of them grinning and shaking hands.</p>
<p>But Cheney being in control of NORAD on 9/11…being so sure there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Cheney and Rummy probably sold them “off the books.”Halliburton sure did a lot of that during the war.</p>
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		<title>By: Hmmm</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/did-cheney-order-up-abu-zubaydahs-83rd-waterboarding/comment-page-1/#comment-149935</link>
		<dc:creator>Hmmm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:48:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;(h/t Hmmm)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;De nada, Marcy, but thank you kindly.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Leen @ 12 - “Wonder how many times those who were just ‘following orders’ called up line and asked whether they could stop with the torture all ready?” — Insert obligatory “Wonder if the NSA intercepted those calls and have copies or transcripts?”. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;dosido @ 52 - “So the ticking time bomb scenario is really about time running out to produce evidence for Dick’s opportunity to bomb Iraq? That’s the time pressure that justified this in Darth Cheney’s mind.” — Wow, I think you win for insight of the day here:  The ticking time PR bomb.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>(h/t Hmmm)</p>
</blockquote>
<p>De nada, Marcy, but thank you kindly.</p>
<p>Leen @ 12 &#8211; “Wonder how many times those who were just ‘following orders’ called up line and asked whether they could stop with the torture all ready?” — Insert obligatory “Wonder if the NSA intercepted those calls and have copies or transcripts?”. </p>
<p>dosido @ 52 &#8211; “So the ticking time bomb scenario is really about time running out to produce evidence for Dick’s opportunity to bomb Iraq? That’s the time pressure that justified this in Darth Cheney’s mind.” — Wow, I think you win for insight of the day here:  The ticking time PR bomb.</p>
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		<title>By: TheraP</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/did-cheney-order-up-abu-zubaydahs-83rd-waterboarding/comment-page-1/#comment-149892</link>
		<dc:creator>TheraP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Goes to prove that torture is worse than death.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Goes to prove that torture is worse than death.</p>
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		<title>By: wunsacon</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/did-cheney-order-up-abu-zubaydahs-83rd-waterboarding/comment-page-1/#comment-149876</link>
		<dc:creator>wunsacon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;…Me thought Cheney doth protest too much.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>…Me thought Cheney doth protest too much.</p>
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		<title>By: TheLurkingMod</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/did-cheney-order-up-abu-zubaydahs-83rd-waterboarding/comment-page-1/#comment-149854</link>
		<dc:creator>TheLurkingMod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/did-cheney-order-up-abu-zubaydahs-83rd-waterboarding/#comment-149854</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Christy Hardin Smith is upstairs at the Mothership, with a guest.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/nathaniel-raymond-director-of-physicians-for-human-rights-sere-scsa-and-olc-the-role-of-health-professionals-in-bush-era-torture/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Nathaniel Raymond, Director of Physicians for Human Rights: The Role of Health Professionals in Bush-Era Torture&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christy Hardin Smith is upstairs at the Mothership, with a guest.<br /><a href="http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/nathaniel-raymond-director-of-physicians-for-human-rights-sere-scsa-and-olc-the-role-of-health-professionals-in-bush-era-torture/" rel="nofollow">Nathaniel Raymond, Director of Physicians for Human Rights: The Role of Health Professionals in Bush-Era Torture</a></p>
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		<title>By: ghostof911</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/did-cheney-order-up-abu-zubaydahs-83rd-waterboarding/comment-page-1/#comment-149852</link>
		<dc:creator>ghostof911</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;It was not an attempt to get at the truth, and they didn’t need evidence in favor of what they were going to do anyway.  It was purely for gratification of sadism.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was not an attempt to get at the truth, and they didn’t need evidence in favor of what they were going to do anyway.  It was purely for gratification of sadism.</p>
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