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	<title>Comments on: Did Holder Know About the &#8220;Significant Misconduct&#8221; When DOJ Claimed Sovereign Immunity?</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/</link>
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		<title>By: timbo</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-147997</link>
		<dc:creator>timbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 03:48:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/#comment-147997</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yeah, the Good Germans analogy is apropos here.  Basically, by failing to curtail the criminality, we become guilty in its commission.  A sad day for the Republic…&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, the Good Germans analogy is apropos here.  Basically, by failing to curtail the criminality, we become guilty in its commission.  A sad day for the Republic…</p>
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		<title>By: robspierre</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-147943</link>
		<dc:creator>robspierre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/#comment-147943</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I agree about the coup. I do not agree that Mr. Obama’s position is any more difficult than he has chosen to make it. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This is one of those Gordian knot situations that only seems complicated because you are agreeing that untying is the only solution. Mr. Obama needs to cut through the complexity with a nice, simple, legal sword. Ruthless, chips-falling-where-they-may prosecution is the way to go, with draconian punishments for the powerful and leniency for the weak who testify against them.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I don’t believe that the intelligence services will be in revolt. The Bushista coup depended on factionalizing military and security forces, generally by preferring the dangerously inept (Foggo) and the mercenary (Intelligence Field Activity, Titan, etc) to the career professionals. The current let-bygones-be-bygones policy continues the marginalization and demoralization of the professionals. They need–and, I think, want–to see the chickens come home to roost, the sweetheart contracts cancelled, and the honor of their profession restored. They thought they had lost by obeying the rules rather than the orders. We need to show them otherwise.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The same argument applies across the board, to all of our abused and shamed institutions. Retired generals should be recalled to the colors and collaborationist officers should be sacked and court martialled. Allies that collaborated rendition and secret dungeons should be pitilessly exposed. Books should be audited, names named, and careers and reputations ruined. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In short, examples have to be made. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Examples have to be made to encourage those that held out and put obedience to the law above obedience to the executive. The administration needs to vindicate the professional intelligence analysts. It can do that by exposing the torturers and illegal wiretappers in open court and sentencing them to long imprisonment. It needs to reestablish discipline and respect for military codes of conduct. It can do that with court martials. It needs to to vindicate those that chose the law over orders from above by punishing those that gave the oreders. It needs to restore our reputation in the world. It can do that with all of the above.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Examples have to be made for the very reasons that apologists say they should not be. If we punish an intelligence agent (or contractor) for obeyng orders and committing crimes, then agents (and contractors) will be second-guessing their superiors and questioning orders. Exactly. No more Good Germans. If we publicly expose a foreign country that housed a secret prison after expressly promising not to do so, the argument goes, no country will agree to so accomodate us in the future. Precisely. Set the precedent and treat intergovernmental agreements like military orders: illegal ones give you  noprotection and are not binding on law-abiding, successor governments. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This is how we undo the evil tangled hairball that Cheyney thinks he has stuck us with.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Cheyney et al plotted a coup. They largely succeeded (so far). But that does not mean that they are all that smart. What they have done can be undone if we–and our President–have the will to do it. It does indeed get harder the longer we wait. But only because we thus give ourselves longer to convince ourselves that we re helpless.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree about the coup. I do not agree that Mr. Obama’s position is any more difficult than he has chosen to make it. </p>
<p>This is one of those Gordian knot situations that only seems complicated because you are agreeing that untying is the only solution. Mr. Obama needs to cut through the complexity with a nice, simple, legal sword. Ruthless, chips-falling-where-they-may prosecution is the way to go, with draconian punishments for the powerful and leniency for the weak who testify against them.</p>
<p>I don’t believe that the intelligence services will be in revolt. The Bushista coup depended on factionalizing military and security forces, generally by preferring the dangerously inept (Foggo) and the mercenary (Intelligence Field Activity, Titan, etc) to the career professionals. The current let-bygones-be-bygones policy continues the marginalization and demoralization of the professionals. They need–and, I think, want–to see the chickens come home to roost, the sweetheart contracts cancelled, and the honor of their profession restored. They thought they had lost by obeying the rules rather than the orders. We need to show them otherwise.</p>
<p>The same argument applies across the board, to all of our abused and shamed institutions. Retired generals should be recalled to the colors and collaborationist officers should be sacked and court martialled. Allies that collaborated rendition and secret dungeons should be pitilessly exposed. Books should be audited, names named, and careers and reputations ruined. </p>
<p>In short, examples have to be made. </p>
<p>Examples have to be made to encourage those that held out and put obedience to the law above obedience to the executive. The administration needs to vindicate the professional intelligence analysts. It can do that by exposing the torturers and illegal wiretappers in open court and sentencing them to long imprisonment. It needs to reestablish discipline and respect for military codes of conduct. It can do that with court martials. It needs to to vindicate those that chose the law over orders from above by punishing those that gave the oreders. It needs to restore our reputation in the world. It can do that with all of the above.</p>
<p>Examples have to be made for the very reasons that apologists say they should not be. If we punish an intelligence agent (or contractor) for obeyng orders and committing crimes, then agents (and contractors) will be second-guessing their superiors and questioning orders. Exactly. No more Good Germans. If we publicly expose a foreign country that housed a secret prison after expressly promising not to do so, the argument goes, no country will agree to so accomodate us in the future. Precisely. Set the precedent and treat intergovernmental agreements like military orders: illegal ones give you  noprotection and are not binding on law-abiding, successor governments. </p>
<p>This is how we undo the evil tangled hairball that Cheyney thinks he has stuck us with.</p>
<p>Cheyney et al plotted a coup. They largely succeeded (so far). But that does not mean that they are all that smart. What they have done can be undone if we–and our President–have the will to do it. It does indeed get harder the longer we wait. But only because we thus give ourselves longer to convince ourselves that we re helpless.</p>
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		<title>By: ericbrewer</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-147911</link>
		<dc:creator>ericbrewer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/#comment-147911</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;By the way, the “sovereign immunity” argument in Jewel is ludicrously fraudulent, as I explain near the end of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.btcnews.com/btcnews/1985&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this post &lt;/a&gt;(scroll down in IE).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In its April 3 brief, the DOJ took the phrase “person or entity, other than the United States” from sections of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act that describe penalties for violations of the law by persons or entities other than the United States (e.g., state or local governments). A different section of the law describes penalties for violations of the law BY the United States.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, the “sovereign immunity” argument in Jewel is ludicrously fraudulent, as I explain near the end of <a href="http://www.btcnews.com/btcnews/1985" rel="nofollow">this post </a>(scroll down in IE).</p>
<p>In its April 3 brief, the DOJ took the phrase “person or entity, other than the United States” from sections of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act that describe penalties for violations of the law by persons or entities other than the United States (e.g., state or local governments). A different section of the law describes penalties for violations of the law BY the United States.</p>
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		<title>By: rwcole</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-147799</link>
		<dc:creator>rwcole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/#comment-147799</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;No one fucks with the CIA- I think that’s the message here. It may also be that Holder will find it necessary to investigate some of those who ordered this shit- and wants to assure the CIA that it won’t include THEM.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one fucks with the CIA- I think that’s the message here. It may also be that Holder will find it necessary to investigate some of those who ordered this shit- and wants to assure the CIA that it won’t include THEM.</p>
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		<title>By: LS</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-147792</link>
		<dc:creator>LS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/#comment-147792</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Ding.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“Cheney pulled off what was, in effect, a coup and nobody noticed.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Arrest him.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ding.</p>
<p>“Cheney pulled off what was, in effect, a coup and nobody noticed.”</p>
<p>Arrest him.</p>
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		<title>By: selise</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-147791</link>
		<dc:creator>selise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:00:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/#comment-147791</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;here they are:  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/olc_memos.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.aclu.org/safefree/g.....memos.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>here they are:  <a href="http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/olc_memos.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.aclu.org/safefree/g&#8230;..memos.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: LS</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-147788</link>
		<dc:creator>LS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/#comment-147788</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I had a dream…a man who used to be VP of the most influential country in the world….and his lawyers….they are in a box and somebody is unleashing insects into the box…oh..but that is just a silly thought…who on earth would do anything revoltingly like that.  Oh yeah.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a dream…a man who used to be VP of the most influential country in the world….and his lawyers….they are in a box and somebody is unleashing insects into the box…oh..but that is just a silly thought…who on earth would do anything revoltingly like that.  Oh yeah.</p>
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		<title>By: cbl2</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-147786</link>
		<dc:creator>cbl2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:53:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/#comment-147786</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;a tantalizing morsel .  .  .&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;There is very little redaction, or blacking out, of detail in the memos, the officials said&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a tantalizing morsel .  .  .</p>
<blockquote><p>There is very little redaction, or blacking out, of detail in the memos, the officials said</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: nahant</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-147785</link>
		<dc:creator>nahant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:52:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/#comment-147785</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;OT but still worth the peruse: Pictures from the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/10-most-offensive-tea-par_n_187554.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;TEA Party!&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OT but still worth the peruse: Pictures from the <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/10-most-offensive-tea-par_n_187554.html" rel="nofollow">TEA Party!</a></p>
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		<title>By: marymccurnin</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/15/did-holder-know-about-the-significant-misconduct-when-doj-claimed-sovereign-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-147784</link>
		<dc:creator>marymccurnin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Or are they not prosecuting the intelligence community officials and will eventually go after the big boys?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or are they not prosecuting the intelligence community officials and will eventually go after the big boys?</p>
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