<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Nate Sez: It&#8217;s about Legacy Costs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:48:32 -0500</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rayne</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145614</link>
		<dc:creator>Rayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145614</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The long-term relationships and chauvinism EW mentioned are tightly linked.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;GM did learn much about management from the Japanese, but the most important part of those learnings — including &lt;em&gt;kereitsu&lt;/em&gt; development of preferred vendor relationships where engineering and quality was best — went out the door with GM’s fanboi fanaticism for all things &lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?id=h80nAdODa2MC&amp;pg=PA250&amp;lpg=PA250&amp;dq=Jose+Ignacio+Lopez+de+Arriortua&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=y_qHxJOYF1&amp;sig=VLJyPgJHnRD4jqTZYXO6TdP20zU&amp;hl=en&amp;ei=jqPSSY2NM9funQe-9MzeBQ&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;resnum=7&amp;ct=result#PPA250,M1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jose Ignacio Lopez de Arriortua&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Lopez did irreparable damage not only to GM but to the rest of the Big Three, encouraging them to look to price over the short-term instead of quality over the long-term, and to do so in highly unethical fashion. I really wish Nate had supplied dates on his chart because if Lopez’ impact appears on the chart where I believe it might, it could explain why GM believed that they were doing the right thing in an environment where their marketshare was increasingly threatened.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Unfortunately, the situation playing out before our eyes is not going to improve the automaker-supplier relationship. With Fiat and Chrysler appearing on the verge of a shotgun wedding, some suppliers will automatically be on the verge of failure — those which Chrysler relied on heavily will be forced to take a backseat to Fiat’s suppliers, in some of which Fiat owns a stake.  Ford is known across the industry as a less-than-ethical player, demanding “rebates” well after awarding contracts, just before or during delivery of material or equipment. Their current situation will only reinforce this behavior. And GM’s bankruptcy will likely force a number of other suppliers regardless of quality to wither and die, having operated for too long with too tight margins and carrying paper and risk for GM. Those that remain will not trust any of the Big Three and will continue to model their production around this lack of faith.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The other factor which doesn’t appear in Nate’s chart is the direct loss of margin attributable to shift in marketshare due to technology transfers. The foreign automakers used many of the same suppliers as the Big Three and benefited greatly from the sunk costs in engineering paid out by the Big Three; they leapfrogged to equal status and then with nominal additional costs improved on quality over the Big Three (I’m thinking specifically of the Koreans here). It’s happening now in China, and it’s happened in the Japanese-owned plants here in the U.S.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Somehow this Shock Doctrine fire sale approach to rebuilding the industry has got to stop and give American automakers the breathing room needed to do a real assessment of what works and what doesn’t — but I don’t know how that’s ever going to happen.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The long-term relationships and chauvinism EW mentioned are tightly linked.</p>
<p>GM did learn much about management from the Japanese, but the most important part of those learnings — including <em>kereitsu</em> development of preferred vendor relationships where engineering and quality was best — went out the door with GM’s fanboi fanaticism for all things <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=h80nAdODa2MC&amp;pg=PA250&amp;lpg=PA250&amp;dq=Jose+Ignacio+Lopez+de+Arriortua&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=y_qHxJOYF1&amp;sig=VLJyPgJHnRD4jqTZYXO6TdP20zU&amp;hl=en&amp;ei=jqPSSY2NM9funQe-9MzeBQ&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;resnum=7&amp;ct=result#PPA250,M1" rel="nofollow">Jose Ignacio Lopez de Arriortua</a>.</p>
<p>Lopez did irreparable damage not only to GM but to the rest of the Big Three, encouraging them to look to price over the short-term instead of quality over the long-term, and to do so in highly unethical fashion. I really wish Nate had supplied dates on his chart because if Lopez’ impact appears on the chart where I believe it might, it could explain why GM believed that they were doing the right thing in an environment where their marketshare was increasingly threatened.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the situation playing out before our eyes is not going to improve the automaker-supplier relationship. With Fiat and Chrysler appearing on the verge of a shotgun wedding, some suppliers will automatically be on the verge of failure — those which Chrysler relied on heavily will be forced to take a backseat to Fiat’s suppliers, in some of which Fiat owns a stake.  Ford is known across the industry as a less-than-ethical player, demanding “rebates” well after awarding contracts, just before or during delivery of material or equipment. Their current situation will only reinforce this behavior. And GM’s bankruptcy will likely force a number of other suppliers regardless of quality to wither and die, having operated for too long with too tight margins and carrying paper and risk for GM. Those that remain will not trust any of the Big Three and will continue to model their production around this lack of faith.</p>
<p>The other factor which doesn’t appear in Nate’s chart is the direct loss of margin attributable to shift in marketshare due to technology transfers. The foreign automakers used many of the same suppliers as the Big Three and benefited greatly from the sunk costs in engineering paid out by the Big Three; they leapfrogged to equal status and then with nominal additional costs improved on quality over the Big Three (I’m thinking specifically of the Koreans here). It’s happening now in China, and it’s happened in the Japanese-owned plants here in the U.S.</p>
<p>Somehow this Shock Doctrine fire sale approach to rebuilding the industry has got to stop and give American automakers the breathing room needed to do a real assessment of what works and what doesn’t — but I don’t know how that’s ever going to happen.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hmmm</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145586</link>
		<dc:creator>Hmmm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:13:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145586</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I don’t know, but I do know that any burden shared by all is a net lighter burden.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don’t know, but I do know that any burden shared by all is a net lighter burden.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145582</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145582</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I agree with you that engineering is a significant factor in choosing suppliers, and on the differential pricing Japanese OE’s use with those in or outside their &lt;em&gt;keiretsu&lt;/em&gt; and in or outside of Japan.  A lot of sake, soju and Maotai went into that statement.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I am saying that long term relationships are becoming fragile or dispensable when they are needed the most, whether they are automotive company IT systems or product drivelines.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you that engineering is a significant factor in choosing suppliers, and on the differential pricing Japanese OE’s use with those in or outside their <em>keiretsu</em> and in or outside of Japan.  A lot of sake, soju and Maotai went into that statement.  </p>
<p>I am saying that long term relationships are becoming fragile or dispensable when they are needed the most, whether they are automotive company IT systems or product drivelines.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: foothillsmike</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145570</link>
		<dc:creator>foothillsmike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:30:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145570</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The concept of the unfunded liabilities was not one that was done only by the auto companies. It was something that everyone has done. Where are the future liabilities of our government funded?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The concept of the unfunded liabilities was not one that was done only by the auto companies. It was something that everyone has done. Where are the future liabilities of our government funded?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: rosalind</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145567</link>
		<dc:creator>rosalind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145567</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;somewhat related:  kevin roderick at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2009/03/retirees_cost_a_lot_in_th.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;laobserved&lt;/a&gt; links to a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.whittierdailynews.com/news/ci_12021501&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;good article&lt;/a&gt; in the Whittier Daily News titled “Millions Owed On Retired Employee Benefits” -&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Public agencies nationwide in 2008 started to publish for the first time how much they will owe in retiree medical costs, which differ from city to city, based on population, number of retirees, and the generosity of medical packages. What governments are finding in many cases is that the cost estimates are far bigger than they expected.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>somewhat related:  kevin roderick at <a href="http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2009/03/retirees_cost_a_lot_in_th.php" rel="nofollow">laobserved</a> links to a <a href="http://www.whittierdailynews.com/news/ci_12021501" rel="nofollow">good article</a> in the Whittier Daily News titled “Millions Owed On Retired Employee Benefits” -</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Public agencies nationwide in 2008 started to publish for the first time how much they will owe in retiree medical costs, which differ from city to city, based on population, number of retirees, and the generosity of medical packages. What governments are finding in many cases is that the cost estimates are far bigger than they expected.</p>
</blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145566</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145566</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Agree they’re buying on price. But if you think they’re not buying long-term engineering relationships (albeit at the cheapest cost), then you’re not looking at the engineering.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And trust me, the Japanese lowball their contracts in other ways, largely by screwing suppliers. They’re definitely NOT paying more, and in a number of cases I’ve heard of, suppliers charge higher prices to the Big 2.5 to make up for the fact that the Japanese clients aren’t paying them.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree they’re buying on price. But if you think they’re not buying long-term engineering relationships (albeit at the cheapest cost), then you’re not looking at the engineering.</p>
<p>And trust me, the Japanese lowball their contracts in other ways, largely by screwing suppliers. They’re definitely NOT paying more, and in a number of cases I’ve heard of, suppliers charge higher prices to the Big 2.5 to make up for the fact that the Japanese clients aren’t paying them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: justbetty</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145557</link>
		<dc:creator>justbetty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:49:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145557</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You raise a good point about the Japanese tendency to protect Japanese industry.  You mention suppliers, but another aspect that has surprised me is the Japanese law that imposes such high taxes on cars that after a few years  people sell cars that are in excellent condition and buy new ones in order to avoid the tax.  Many of these second-hand cars end up here in the Caribbean, sold to people who wouldn’t have been able to afford new cars - a situation that has wreaked havoc on the relatively undeveloped road infrastructure in the islands.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You raise a good point about the Japanese tendency to protect Japanese industry.  You mention suppliers, but another aspect that has surprised me is the Japanese law that imposes such high taxes on cars that after a few years  people sell cars that are in excellent condition and buy new ones in order to avoid the tax.  Many of these second-hand cars end up here in the Caribbean, sold to people who wouldn’t have been able to afford new cars &#8211; a situation that has wreaked havoc on the relatively undeveloped road infrastructure in the islands.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145556</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145556</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I understand your point well and have spent some time negotiating such contracts from both buyer and supplier’s perspectives.  Like pigs, among “price, quality, service and delivery”, price is more equal than others.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand your point well and have spent some time negotiating such contracts from both buyer and supplier’s perspectives.  Like pigs, among “price, quality, service and delivery”, price is more equal than others.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145553</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145553</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think you’re misunderstanding my point about suppliers. GM’s supply chain looks absolutely nothing like Wal-Marts, nothing. And they do respect engineering quality.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;My point is that there are times when the Japanese will stick with a Japanese supplier EVEN IF that supplier’s quality has declined and EVEN IF there’s someone who does it better from another country.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you’re misunderstanding my point about suppliers. GM’s supply chain looks absolutely nothing like Wal-Marts, nothing. And they do respect engineering quality.</p>
<p>My point is that there are times when the Japanese will stick with a Japanese supplier EVEN IF that supplier’s quality has declined and EVEN IF there’s someone who does it better from another country.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145552</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/03/31/nate-sez-its-about-legacy-costs/#comment-145552</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I don’t know that adopting GM or Wal-Mart’s standards for managing suppliers is the way to go, either.  Price is important, but unlike jeans or sports bras or shoes, automotive systems require considerable time to design and produce, and they need to be supported for years in the field. Engineering quality and financial viability are also important traits in a supplier, but too often respected in the breach.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don’t know that adopting GM or Wal-Mart’s standards for managing suppliers is the way to go, either.  Price is important, but unlike jeans or sports bras or shoes, automotive systems require considerable time to design and produce, and they need to be supported for years in the field. Engineering quality and financial viability are also important traits in a supplier, but too often respected in the breach.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Dynamic page generated in 0.254 seconds. -->
<!-- Cached page generated by WP-Super-Cache on 2012-02-17 10:51:45 -->

