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	<title>Comments on: Obama&#8217;s Two &#8220;Ifs&#8221; on FISA: Heads I Win, Tails You Lose</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/obamas-two-ifs-on-fisa-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/</link>
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		<title>By: Synoia</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/obamas-two-ifs-on-fisa-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/#comment-137989</link>
		<dc:creator>Synoia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:42:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/obamas-two-ifs-on-fisa-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/#comment-137989</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;This is amusing. We, from the software engineering field, know, two things:&lt;br /&gt;
1. Written specifications are always imprecise&lt;br /&gt;
2. All programming, which is precise, requires testing, especially te boundary conditions.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This fragment:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;shall, notwithstanding any other law, if the Attorney General files an affidavit under oath that disclosure or an adversary hearing would harm the national security of the United States, review in camera and ex parte the application, order, and such other materials relating to the surveillance as may be necessary to determine whether the surveillance of the aggrieved person was lawfully authorized and conducted. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In code:&lt;br /&gt;
If AG.Affidavit = secret&lt;br /&gt;
  then&lt;br /&gt;
    if review_in_camera &amp; ex parte( the stuff ) = lawful&lt;br /&gt;
    then result = lawful&lt;br /&gt;
    else result = unlawful&lt;br /&gt;
  end&lt;br /&gt;
  else ? and this is the missing piece in the fragments….&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;? is what to do if the ag does nothing, or declares the information not secret…and what’s the initial condition of AG.Affidavit? secret or not secret.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Not only is this spec (law) imprecise, it fails to define initial conditions, or boundary conditions.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The fragment is an appaling piece of logic.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A simple tool, the flowchart, would be an even clearer mechanism for defining “rules”. English? Not so good.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is amusing. We, from the software engineering field, know, two things:<br />
1. Written specifications are always imprecise<br />
2. All programming, which is precise, requires testing, especially te boundary conditions.</p>
<p>This fragment:</p>
<p>shall, notwithstanding any other law, if the Attorney General files an affidavit under oath that disclosure or an adversary hearing would harm the national security of the United States, review in camera and ex parte the application, order, and such other materials relating to the surveillance as may be necessary to determine whether the surveillance of the aggrieved person was lawfully authorized and conducted. </p>
<p>In code:<br />
If AG.Affidavit = secret<br />
  then<br />
    if review_in_camera &amp; ex parte( the stuff ) = lawful<br />
    then result = lawful<br />
    else result = unlawful<br />
  end<br />
  else ? and this is the missing piece in the fragments….</p>
<p>? is what to do if the ag does nothing, or declares the information not secret…and what’s the initial condition of AG.Affidavit? secret or not secret.</p>
<p>Not only is this spec (law) imprecise, it fails to define initial conditions, or boundary conditions.</p>
<p>The fragment is an appaling piece of logic.</p>
<p>A simple tool, the flowchart, would be an even clearer mechanism for defining “rules”. English? Not so good.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/obamas-two-ifs-on-fisa-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/#comment-137922</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:47:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;IMO 1806(f) involves, not the 802 certifications, but a Reynolds type affidavit, and what it says is that if the AG files a Reynolds affidavit - which has been the stop point in other cases, with courts saying they couldn’t even take an in camera peek after such a filing - the court shall take that in camera peek.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’m not sure they can tell the court to do that, but it is a pretty laughable argument that it would mean that the court can never order in camera peeks unless a Reynolds affidavit is filed.  IMO, either construction might be unconstituional (I just don’t think Congress can tell the courts when they HAVE to hold in camera reviews) but the construction that the universe of times the court can require in camera production is limited to the subset of when a Reynold’s affidavit is filed - that just silliness. In a not funny way.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;On the 802 certifications, what gov is saying is that Walker is right that they have discretion, but wrong that the discretion is violative of non-delegation doctrines or is facially overbroad.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I really have to wonder at people who continue to work for this department of justice.  It’s not a good place and it’s not generating good for the country.  Why would someone knowingly choose every day to show up and be paid for harming their country and their own soul - I just don’t get it.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMO 1806(f) involves, not the 802 certifications, but a Reynolds type affidavit, and what it says is that if the AG files a Reynolds affidavit &#8211; which has been the stop point in other cases, with courts saying they couldn’t even take an in camera peek after such a filing &#8211; the court shall take that in camera peek.  </p>
<p>I’m not sure they can tell the court to do that, but it is a pretty laughable argument that it would mean that the court can never order in camera peeks unless a Reynolds affidavit is filed.  IMO, either construction might be unconstituional (I just don’t think Congress can tell the courts when they HAVE to hold in camera reviews) but the construction that the universe of times the court can require in camera production is limited to the subset of when a Reynold’s affidavit is filed &#8211; that just silliness. In a not funny way.</p>
<p>On the 802 certifications, what gov is saying is that Walker is right that they have discretion, but wrong that the discretion is violative of non-delegation doctrines or is facially overbroad.</p>
<p>I really have to wonder at people who continue to work for this department of justice.  It’s not a good place and it’s not generating good for the country.  Why would someone knowingly choose every day to show up and be paid for harming their country and their own soul &#8211; I just don’t get it.</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/obamas-two-ifs-on-fisa-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/#comment-137914</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yeah, I pretty much agree with this.  And if history bears out, Kennedy cares about internal consistency to a degree (not always successful, but he seems to care and try).&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I pretty much agree with this.  And if history bears out, Kennedy cares about internal consistency to a degree (not always successful, but he seems to care and try).</p>
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		<title>By: freepatriot</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/obamas-two-ifs-on-fisa-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/#comment-137908</link>
		<dc:creator>freepatriot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;so it all gets thrown out, based upon Marbury Versus Madison&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;the court can either cut it’s own throat, or rule in favor of the People&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;the rubes should be able to understand that&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;I did …&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>so it all gets thrown out, based upon Marbury Versus Madison</p>
<p>the court can either cut it’s own throat, or rule in favor of the People</p>
<p>the rubes should be able to understand that</p>
<p><em>I did …</em></p>
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		<title>By: CasualObserver</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/obamas-two-ifs-on-fisa-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/#comment-137907</link>
		<dc:creator>CasualObserver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thank you very much EW, this helps us laymen sort things out a bit.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you very much EW, this helps us laymen sort things out a bit.</p>
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		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/obamas-two-ifs-on-fisa-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/#comment-137906</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:01:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;And that’s really the direction Walker was headed in with the retroactive immunity before he got caught up on this “if,” so if we’re lucky he’ll cite Boumediene in his ruling on this.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And that’s really the direction Walker was headed in with the retroactive immunity before he got caught up on this “if,” so if we’re lucky he’ll cite Boumediene in his ruling on this.</p>
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		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/obamas-two-ifs-on-fisa-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/#comment-137905</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:59:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well, geez. That was easy. Can you write Mr. Obama and tell him.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, geez. That was easy. Can you write Mr. Obama and tell him.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: klynn</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/obamas-two-ifs-on-fisa-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/#comment-137904</link>
		<dc:creator>klynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:57:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/obamas-two-ifs-on-fisa-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/#comment-137904</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;EW,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Obama maintaining the same position begs many questions…like…”Why?”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I know the answer… We just need to keep the “why” in discussion…a great deal.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thanks for the post.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EW,</p>
<p>Obama maintaining the same position begs many questions…like…”Why?”</p>
<p>I know the answer… We just need to keep the “why” in discussion…a great deal.</p>
<p>Thanks for the post.</p>
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		<title>By: freepatriot</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/obamas-two-ifs-on-fisa-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/#comment-137903</link>
		<dc:creator>freepatriot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:41:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/obamas-two-ifs-on-fisa-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/#comment-137903</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;and in a trash talking vein, anybody else notice that mel kiper has a forehead and two fiveheads&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’ve heard of male pattern baldness, but I never seen that pattern before …&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;which team has the first draft pick again ???&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;oh yeah, big blue&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;(ducking an running)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and in a trash talking vein, anybody else notice that mel kiper has a forehead and two fiveheads</p>
<p>I’ve heard of male pattern baldness, but I never seen that pattern before …</p>
<p>which team has the first draft pick again ???</p>
<p>oh yeah, big blue</p>
<p>(ducking an running)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: freepatriot</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/obamas-two-ifs-on-fisa-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/#comment-137902</link>
		<dc:creator>freepatriot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/26/obamas-two-ifs-on-fisa-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/#comment-137902</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090227/ap_on_bi_ge/rocky_mountain_news_closes;_ylt=Ajyapz2dj8tDf8u4ehLcGZGs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTFpcmpicml0BHBvcwMyNgRzZWMDYWNjb3JkaW9uX21vc3RfcG9wdWxhcgRzbGsDcm9ja3ltb3VudGFp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;RIP Rocky Mountain News&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090227/ap_on_bi_ge/rocky_mountain_news_closes;_ylt=Ajyapz2dj8tDf8u4ehLcGZGs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTFpcmpicml0BHBvcwMyNgRzZWMDYWNjb3JkaW9uX21vc3RfcG9wdWxhcgRzbGsDcm9ja3ltb3VudGFp" rel="nofollow">RIP Rocky Mountain News</a></p>
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