Comments on: Developing Arguments about Classified Information in the al-Haramain Litigation http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/ Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:48:32 -0500 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: DonS http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-137074 DonS Mon, 23 Feb 2009 00:15:44 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-137074 <p>Hmmm, this post ahs been up a while and there are still only a dozen comments. Can we assume that no one out there has either a clue, or inside information. Or it’s a lazy Sunday.</p> <p>Given that the Obama people intervened in the first place — thereby poking the court in the eye — they obviously had something they wanted to say. Under the guise of ‘can’t we all get along’, or perhaps, let’s do a workaround that doesn’t immediately get to the question of unitary executive issues, or perhaps, let bygones be bygones, they must have had one, maybe two moving principles.</p> <p>Given Obama’s revealed modus to date, on big legal issues (vs rhetorical pronouncements) he has sided with the Bushies, at least by kicking the can down the road. I don’t think he wants Conyers reaming out Rove or anyone else under compelled testimony. And I don’t think he wants to be seen as a wimp when it comes to retaining all those macho executive prerogatives.</p> <p>But I haven’t a clue, and I can’t believe there isn’t someone out there who can’t move the dialogue forward? Even anon.</p> Hmmm, this post ahs been up a while and there are still only a dozen comments. Can we assume that no one out there has either a clue, or inside information. Or it’s a lazy Sunday.

Given that the Obama people intervened in the first place — thereby poking the court in the eye — they obviously had something they wanted to say. Under the guise of ‘can’t we all get along’, or perhaps, let’s do a workaround that doesn’t immediately get to the question of unitary executive issues, or perhaps, let bygones be bygones, they must have had one, maybe two moving principles.

Given Obama’s revealed modus to date, on big legal issues (vs rhetorical pronouncements) he has sided with the Bushies, at least by kicking the can down the road. I don’t think he wants Conyers reaming out Rove or anyone else under compelled testimony. And I don’t think he wants to be seen as a wimp when it comes to retaining all those macho executive prerogatives.

But I haven’t a clue, and I can’t believe there isn’t someone out there who can’t move the dialogue forward? Even anon.

]]> By: bmaz http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-137001 bmaz Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:13:56 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-137001 <p>Granted there has been some of that; but there is a garbage in garbage out element too. When the government under Bush, and now it appears to a lesser but still present extent under Obama, takes inherently bad postures, it limits often where a court can go. For my money, what little there is of it, the courts have been by far the the best, if not only, hedge for quite a while.</p> Granted there has been some of that; but there is a garbage in garbage out element too. When the government under Bush, and now it appears to a lesser but still present extent under Obama, takes inherently bad postures, it limits often where a court can go. For my money, what little there is of it, the courts have been by far the the best, if not only, hedge for quite a while.

]]> By: scribe http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136998 scribe Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:42:53 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136998 <p>I hope you’re right.</p> <p>But I have seen too many disasters come from courts recently to allow myself to give weight to that hope.</p> I hope you’re right.

But I have seen too many disasters come from courts recently to allow myself to give weight to that hope.

]]> By: skdadl http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136996 skdadl Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:29:06 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136996 <p>EW or anyone still reading: can someone clarify for me whether there is a distinction between “state secrets” and “national security” — ie, are the two expressions equivalent, or are they used in different contexts, or is the second the justification for the first? I ask because I’ve been more used to hearing “national security” cited as the reason our government can’t divulge something or other to do with various kinds of detainees — that, plus often “damage to international relations” or some variant thereon.</p> EW or anyone still reading: can someone clarify for me whether there is a distinction between “state secrets” and “national security” — ie, are the two expressions equivalent, or are they used in different contexts, or is the second the justification for the first? I ask because I’ve been more used to hearing “national security” cited as the reason our government can’t divulge something or other to do with various kinds of detainees — that, plus often “damage to international relations” or some variant thereon.

]]> By: emptywheel http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136993 emptywheel Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:17:47 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136993 <p>So, uh, I guess the judges in this case aren’t allowed their say anymore?</p> <p>Like it or not, this appeal seems to get to issues that are real and that may seriously limit state secrets (and moves in significant way away from the Unitary Executive claims of Bush). Unless the 9th has just decided to roll over and play dead, I’m not sure any of your conclusions are valid.</p> So, uh, I guess the judges in this case aren’t allowed their say anymore?

Like it or not, this appeal seems to get to issues that are real and that may seriously limit state secrets (and moves in significant way away from the Unitary Executive claims of Bush). Unless the 9th has just decided to roll over and play dead, I’m not sure any of your conclusions are valid.

]]> By: Palli http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136988 Palli Sun, 22 Feb 2009 13:56:57 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136988 <p>Tell me what to do…how to succinctly say this is not the government I voted for!</p> Tell me what to do…how to succinctly say this is not the government I voted for!

]]> By: freepatriot http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136987 freepatriot Sun, 22 Feb 2009 05:54:59 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136987 <p>damn, I always though ew was rare</p> <p>turns out she’s a medium</p> <p>(ducking and running)</p> damn, I always though ew was rare

turns out she’s a medium

(ducking and running)

]]> By: bmaz http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136982 bmaz Sun, 22 Feb 2009 04:16:32 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136982 <p><a href="http://www.ernestt.com/" rel="nofollow">This Ernest?</a></p> This Ernest?

]]> By: freepatriot http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136980 freepatriot Sun, 22 Feb 2009 04:00:14 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136980 <p>you work in Earnest ???</p> <p>is that a problem for Earnest ???</p> <p><em>(couldn’t resist)</em></p> <p><em>(ducking and reading)</em></p> you work in Earnest ???

is that a problem for Earnest ???

(couldn’t resist)

(ducking and reading)

]]> By: scribe http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136904 scribe Sat, 21 Feb 2009 23:32:19 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/21/developing-arguments-about-classified-information-in-the-al-haramain-litigation/#comment-136904 <p>So, EW, what the reasoning lawyer can conclude from this is the following:</p> <p>(a) the substance of the Bushco power grab and assault on our civil liberties will not be reversed;<br /> (b) the remaining cases will be strung out until they go away; and<br /> (c) the power grab and assault on our civil liberties will be normalized by bringing them within the boundaries of “what is legal” by getting Congress to pass legislation ratifying them. In other words, <em>Youngstown</em> will be given its due and the President will have acted within authorization and power granted by Congress, rather than against it.</p> <p>Cute.</p> So, EW, what the reasoning lawyer can conclude from this is the following:

(a) the substance of the Bushco power grab and assault on our civil liberties will not be reversed;
(b) the remaining cases will be strung out until they go away; and
(c) the power grab and assault on our civil liberties will be normalized by bringing them within the boundaries of “what is legal” by getting Congress to pass legislation ratifying them. In other words, Youngstown will be given its due and the President will have acted within authorization and power granted by Congress, rather than against it.

Cute.

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