<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Some Obama Folks Miffed about al-Haramain</title>
	<atom:link href="http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:48:32 -0500</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: selise</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132245</link>
		<dc:creator>selise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 21:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132245</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;what can i say? i’m a liberal, so i’m fan of fair trials - and that includes for bush. *g*&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what can i say? i’m a liberal, so i’m fan of fair trials &#8211; and that includes for bush. *g*</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Synoia</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132237</link>
		<dc:creator>Synoia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 21:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132237</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Of all the things I’ve lost, I miss my mind the most.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of all the things I’ve lost, I miss my mind the most.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132228</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 21:04:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132228</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;A bit OT but it seems that a country or the U.N. can declare bush a war criminal then U.S. agents can pick him up and deliver him and others to justice in another country. I’ll buy that joint effort scenario.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A bit OT but it seems that a country or the U.N. can declare bush a war criminal then U.S. agents can pick him up and deliver him and others to justice in another country. I’ll buy that joint effort scenario.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: selise</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132221</link>
		<dc:creator>selise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132221</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;re scott horton:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;The earlier renditions program regularly involved snatching and removing targets for purposes of bringing them to justice by delivering them to a criminal justice system. It did not involve the operation of long-term detention facilities and it did not involve torture.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;from jane mayer: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/02/14/050214fa_fact6?currentPage=all&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;OUTSOURCING TORTURE The secret history of America’s “extraordinary rendition” program.&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;The obvious choice, Scheuer said, was Egypt. The largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid after Israel, Egypt was a key strategic ally, and its secret police force, the Mukhabarat, had a reputation for brutality. Egypt had been frequently cited by the State Department for torture of prisoners. According to a 2002 report, detainees were “stripped and blindfolded; suspended from a ceiling or doorframe with feet just touching the floor; beaten with fists, whips, metal rods, or other objects; subjected to electrical shocks; and doused with cold water [and] sexually assaulted.” Hosni Mubarak, Egypt’s leader, who came to office in 1981, after President Anwar Sadat was assassinated by Islamist extremists, was determined to crack down on terrorism. His prime political enemies were radical Islamists, hundreds of whom had fled the country and joined Al Qaeda. Among these was Ayman al-Zawahiri, a physician from Cairo, who went to Afghanistan and eventually became bin Laden’s deputy.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In 1995, Scheuer said, American agents proposed the rendition program to Egypt, making clear that it had the resources to track, capture, and transport terrorist suspects globally—including access to a small fleet of aircraft. Egypt embraced the idea. “What was clever was that some of the senior people in Al Qaeda were Egyptian,” Scheuer said. “It served American purposes to get these people arrested, and Egyptian purposes to get these people back, where they could be interrogated.” Technically, U.S. law requires the C.I.A. to seek “assurances” from foreign governments that rendered suspects won’t be tortured. Scheuer told me that this was done, but he was “not sure” if any documents confirming the arrangement were signed.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A series of spectacular covert operations followed from this secret pact. On September 13, 1995, U.S. agents helped kidnap Talaat Fouad Qassem, one of Egypt’s most wanted terrorists, in Croatia. Qassem had fled to Europe after being linked by Egypt to the assassination of Sadat; he had been sentenced to death in absentia. Croatian police seized Qassem in Zagreb and handed him over to U.S. agents, who interrogated him aboard a ship cruising the Adriatic Sea and then took him back to Egypt. Once there, Qassem disappeared. There is no record that he was put on trial. Hossam el-Hamalawy, an Egyptian journalist who covers human-rights issues, said, “We believe he was executed.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A more elaborate operation was staged in Tirana, Albania, in the summer of 1998. According to the Wall Street Journal, the C.I.A. provided the Albanian intelligence service with equipment to wiretap the phones of suspected Muslim militants. Tapes of the conversations were translated into English, and U.S. agents discovered that they contained lengthy discussions with Zawahiri, bin Laden’s deputy. The U.S. pressured Egypt for assistance; in June, Egypt issued an arrest warrant for Shawki Salama Attiya, one of the militants. Over the next few months, according to the Journal, Albanian security forces, working with U.S. agents, killed one suspect and captured Attiya and four others. These men were bound, blindfolded, and taken to an abandoned airbase, then flown by jet to Cairo for interrogation. Attiya later alleged that he suffered electrical shocks to his genitals, was hung from his limbs, and was kept in a cell in filthy water up to his knees. Two other suspects, who had been sentenced to death in absentia, were hanged.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;On August 5, 1998, an Arab-language newspaper in London published a letter from the International Islamic Front for Jihad, in which it threatened retaliation against the U.S. for the Albanian operation—in a “language they will understand.” Two days later, the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were blown up, killing two hundred and twenty-four people.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The U.S. began rendering terror suspects to other countries, but the most common destination remained Egypt.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re scott horton:</p>
<blockquote><p>The earlier renditions program regularly involved snatching and removing targets for purposes of bringing them to justice by delivering them to a criminal justice system. It did not involve the operation of long-term detention facilities and it did not involve torture.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>from jane mayer: <a href="http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/02/14/050214fa_fact6?currentPage=all" rel="nofollow">OUTSOURCING TORTURE The secret history of America’s “extraordinary rendition” program.</a></p>
<blockquote><p>The obvious choice, Scheuer said, was Egypt. The largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid after Israel, Egypt was a key strategic ally, and its secret police force, the Mukhabarat, had a reputation for brutality. Egypt had been frequently cited by the State Department for torture of prisoners. According to a 2002 report, detainees were “stripped and blindfolded; suspended from a ceiling or doorframe with feet just touching the floor; beaten with fists, whips, metal rods, or other objects; subjected to electrical shocks; and doused with cold water [and] sexually assaulted.” Hosni Mubarak, Egypt’s leader, who came to office in 1981, after President Anwar Sadat was assassinated by Islamist extremists, was determined to crack down on terrorism. His prime political enemies were radical Islamists, hundreds of whom had fled the country and joined Al Qaeda. Among these was Ayman al-Zawahiri, a physician from Cairo, who went to Afghanistan and eventually became bin Laden’s deputy.</p>
<p>In 1995, Scheuer said, American agents proposed the rendition program to Egypt, making clear that it had the resources to track, capture, and transport terrorist suspects globally—including access to a small fleet of aircraft. Egypt embraced the idea. “What was clever was that some of the senior people in Al Qaeda were Egyptian,” Scheuer said. “It served American purposes to get these people arrested, and Egyptian purposes to get these people back, where they could be interrogated.” Technically, U.S. law requires the C.I.A. to seek “assurances” from foreign governments that rendered suspects won’t be tortured. Scheuer told me that this was done, but he was “not sure” if any documents confirming the arrangement were signed.</p>
<p>A series of spectacular covert operations followed from this secret pact. On September 13, 1995, U.S. agents helped kidnap Talaat Fouad Qassem, one of Egypt’s most wanted terrorists, in Croatia. Qassem had fled to Europe after being linked by Egypt to the assassination of Sadat; he had been sentenced to death in absentia. Croatian police seized Qassem in Zagreb and handed him over to U.S. agents, who interrogated him aboard a ship cruising the Adriatic Sea and then took him back to Egypt. Once there, Qassem disappeared. There is no record that he was put on trial. Hossam el-Hamalawy, an Egyptian journalist who covers human-rights issues, said, “We believe he was executed.”</p>
<p>A more elaborate operation was staged in Tirana, Albania, in the summer of 1998. According to the Wall Street Journal, the C.I.A. provided the Albanian intelligence service with equipment to wiretap the phones of suspected Muslim militants. Tapes of the conversations were translated into English, and U.S. agents discovered that they contained lengthy discussions with Zawahiri, bin Laden’s deputy. The U.S. pressured Egypt for assistance; in June, Egypt issued an arrest warrant for Shawki Salama Attiya, one of the militants. Over the next few months, according to the Journal, Albanian security forces, working with U.S. agents, killed one suspect and captured Attiya and four others. These men were bound, blindfolded, and taken to an abandoned airbase, then flown by jet to Cairo for interrogation. Attiya later alleged that he suffered electrical shocks to his genitals, was hung from his limbs, and was kept in a cell in filthy water up to his knees. Two other suspects, who had been sentenced to death in absentia, were hanged.</p>
<p>On August 5, 1998, an Arab-language newspaper in London published a letter from the International Islamic Front for Jihad, in which it threatened retaliation against the U.S. for the Albanian operation—in a “language they will understand.” Two days later, the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were blown up, killing two hundred and twenty-four people.</p>
<p>The U.S. began rendering terror suspects to other countries, but the most common destination remained Egypt.</p>
</blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: MeteorBlades</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132211</link>
		<dc:creator>MeteorBlades</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132211</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The effort by Horton and Hilzoy (both of whom I respect immensely) to paint Greg Miller’s reporting - there are actually two stories, another appeared on January 23 - on this subject as “breathless” or missing the point indicates a failure to thoroughly read his stories in this. Yes, the sources are unnamed, which, as we all know, can have its difficulties. But there is no evidence in either story to indicate that Miller has confused “extraordinary rendition” with “rendition.” &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Lewis’s take on this is somewhat encouraging in what has been a disturbing couple of weeks in these matters. We’ll all have a better idea of what direction things will take when the al Haramain briefs are filed this week. But can the folks who keep telling us all to “chill” and saying there’s no reason to be skeptical give us better evidence for why they’re not skeptical?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The effort by Horton and Hilzoy (both of whom I respect immensely) to paint Greg Miller’s reporting &#8211; there are actually two stories, another appeared on January 23 &#8211; on this subject as “breathless” or missing the point indicates a failure to thoroughly read his stories in this. Yes, the sources are unnamed, which, as we all know, can have its difficulties. But there is no evidence in either story to indicate that Miller has confused “extraordinary rendition” with “rendition.” </p>
<p>Lewis’s take on this is somewhat encouraging in what has been a disturbing couple of weeks in these matters. We’ll all have a better idea of what direction things will take when the al Haramain briefs are filed this week. But can the folks who keep telling us all to “chill” and saying there’s no reason to be skeptical give us better evidence for why they’re not skeptical?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: BillE</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132194</link>
		<dc:creator>BillE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 18:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132194</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;FWIW - My questions posted on Whitehouse.gov about this and a few other questions still not answered or replied to in any way.   As a campaign volunteer i thought they would at least answer with an automated we got your question email&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW &#8211; My questions posted on Whitehouse.gov about this and a few other questions still not answered or replied to in any way.   As a campaign volunteer i thought they would at least answer with an automated we got your question email</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JTMinIA</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132192</link>
		<dc:creator>JTMinIA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 18:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132192</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Shorter Horton: as a modifier to the word “rendition,” the term “extraordinary” should best be read as “illegal.”&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shorter Horton: as a modifier to the word “rendition,” the term “extraordinary” should best be read as “illegal.”</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132189</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 18:08:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132189</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;And then there’s &lt;a href=&quot;http://harpers.org/archive/2009/02/hbc-90004326&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this one from Scott Horton&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;The Los Angeles Times just got punked. Its description of the European Parliament’s report is not accurate. (Point of disclosure: I served as an expert witness in hearings leading to the report.) But that’s the least of its problems. It misses the difference between the renditions program, which has been around since the Bush 41 Administration at least (and arguably in some form even in the Reagan Administration) and the extraordinary renditions program which was introduced by Bush 43 and clearly shut down under an executive order issued by President Obama in his first week.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There are two fundamental distinctions between the programs. The extraordinary renditions program involved the operation of long-term detention facilities either by the CIA or by a cooperating host government together with the CIA, in which prisoners were held outside of the criminal justice system and otherwise unaccountable under law for extended periods of time. A central feature of this program was rendition to torture, namely that the prisoner was turned over to cooperating foreign governments with the full understanding that those governments would apply techniques that even the Bush Administration considers to be torture. This practice is a felony under current U.S. law, but was made a centerpiece of Bush counterterrorism policy.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The earlier renditions program regularly involved snatching and removing targets for purposes of bringing them to justice by delivering them to a criminal justice system. It did not involve the operation of long-term detention facilities and it did not involve torture.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And then there’s <a href="http://harpers.org/archive/2009/02/hbc-90004326" rel="nofollow">this one from Scott Horton</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>The Los Angeles Times just got punked. Its description of the European Parliament’s report is not accurate. (Point of disclosure: I served as an expert witness in hearings leading to the report.) But that’s the least of its problems. It misses the difference between the renditions program, which has been around since the Bush 41 Administration at least (and arguably in some form even in the Reagan Administration) and the extraordinary renditions program which was introduced by Bush 43 and clearly shut down under an executive order issued by President Obama in his first week.</p>
<p>There are two fundamental distinctions between the programs. The extraordinary renditions program involved the operation of long-term detention facilities either by the CIA or by a cooperating host government together with the CIA, in which prisoners were held outside of the criminal justice system and otherwise unaccountable under law for extended periods of time. A central feature of this program was rendition to torture, namely that the prisoner was turned over to cooperating foreign governments with the full understanding that those governments would apply techniques that even the Bush Administration considers to be torture. This practice is a felony under current U.S. law, but was made a centerpiece of Bush counterterrorism policy.</p>
<p>The earlier renditions program regularly involved snatching and removing targets for purposes of bringing them to justice by delivering them to a criminal justice system. It did not involve the operation of long-term detention facilities and it did not involve torture.</p>
</blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JTMinIA</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132178</link>
		<dc:creator>JTMinIA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 17:45:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132178</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Maybe I’m close to being one of those people who do not see a difference.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If you “kidnap” someone because you think they’re a bad guy (aka citizen’s arrest), you need to be ready to prove that it was appropriate or else it really is kidnapping and you are liable.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’d like to see the same rules apply internationally.  In other words, I have no problem with any country grabbing people off the street as long as they are ready to prove that it was appropriate.  To balance the need to protect the innocent, I do not accept any form of secret rendition.  If you aren’t ready to show why it was appropriate, then, I’m sorry, you can’t do it.  Or, if you really think it must be done and you refuse to explain why, then suck it up and take the rap for kidnapping.  After all, we’re taught in grade-school that sacrificing self for country is noble.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I’m close to being one of those people who do not see a difference.</p>
<p>If you “kidnap” someone because you think they’re a bad guy (aka citizen’s arrest), you need to be ready to prove that it was appropriate or else it really is kidnapping and you are liable.</p>
<p>I’d like to see the same rules apply internationally.  In other words, I have no problem with any country grabbing people off the street as long as they are ready to prove that it was appropriate.  To balance the need to protect the innocent, I do not accept any form of secret rendition.  If you aren’t ready to show why it was appropriate, then, I’m sorry, you can’t do it.  Or, if you really think it must be done and you refuse to explain why, then suck it up and take the rap for kidnapping.  After all, we’re taught in grade-school that sacrificing self for country is noble.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132171</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 17:23:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/02/02/some-obama-folks-miffed-about-al-haramain/#comment-132171</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Right.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But at the same time, ignoring the actual wording of an EO to make an argument that that EO says something that is not at all what that EO says is pretty inexcusable, IMO.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Yes, we need to remain vigilant about Obama. But we don’t need to, at the same time, throw out our ability to, you know, read.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right.</p>
<p>But at the same time, ignoring the actual wording of an EO to make an argument that that EO says something that is not at all what that EO says is pretty inexcusable, IMO.</p>
<p>Yes, we need to remain vigilant about Obama. But we don’t need to, at the same time, throw out our ability to, you know, read.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Dynamic page generated in 0.289 seconds. -->
<!-- Cached page generated by WP-Super-Cache on 2012-02-17 08:25:22 -->

