Comments on: Orrin Hatch to Support Holder Yet the Delay and Kabuki Continues http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/ Tue, 24 Nov 2009 01:18:47 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: bmaz http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-126421 bmaz Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:10:29 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/#comment-126421 <p>I think that is a potentially good argument, assuming it makes it past a motion in limine; however, after that point is also where they had better cover. Excellent point and argument though.</p> I think that is a potentially good argument, assuming it makes it past a motion in limine; however, after that point is also where they had better cover. Excellent point and argument though.

]]> By: Mary http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-126412 Mary Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:59:39 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/#comment-126412 <p>9 - Here’s another thought, though. After Judge Diggs-Taylor ruled that at least one part of “teh program” violated the Constitution, I think that ruling (despite the 6th Cir dismissal, NOT on the merits, for lack of standing) makes it pretty darn impossible for anyone involved with the program to claim reasonable reliance on that part of the program’s validity, no matter what Exec orders or OLC opinions were generated. So I think from the date of her opinion forward is also a pretty ripe area.</p> 9 – Here’s another thought, though. After Judge Diggs-Taylor ruled that at least one part of “teh program” violated the Constitution, I think that ruling (despite the 6th Cir dismissal, NOT on the merits, for lack of standing) makes it pretty darn impossible for anyone involved with the program to claim reasonable reliance on that part of the program’s validity, no matter what Exec orders or OLC opinions were generated. So I think from the date of her opinion forward is also a pretty ripe area.

]]> By: Mary http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-126411 Mary Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:55:09 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/#comment-126411 <p>bmaz and lhp are right that there’s no time. The only thing I will hold out, though, is that there have been a slew of people who filed FOIA requests to get info on whether they were illegal targets and Gov has withheld a response. For those people, there might be a valid claim to extend the statute for the Gov withholding of evidence of the crime. What that would leave open (and what bmaz has argued is probably covered anyway by agreement) is whether or not the extension for constructive or actual fraud or similar behaviour would also extend the statute vis a vis telecom co-defendants. </p> <p>OT - Finally, a service (AP) uses the “i” word. After all this time, and only as Bush is leaving and GITMO is becoming Obama’s problem, and after several years of court rulings, finally the word “innocent” is mentioned in connection with GITMO.</p> <p><a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090113/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_guantanamo_who_s_left" rel="nofollow">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....who_s_left</a></p> <blockquote><p> President-elect Barack Obama’s planned review of Guantanamo Bay prisoners, a prelude to closing the detention center, must weigh the threats posed by an extraordinarily diverse group, from die-hard jihadists to <strong>innocent</strong> men swept up in war.</p></blockquote> <p> emph added</p> bmaz and lhp are right that there’s no time. The only thing I will hold out, though, is that there have been a slew of people who filed FOIA requests to get info on whether they were illegal targets and Gov has withheld a response. For those people, there might be a valid claim to extend the statute for the Gov withholding of evidence of the crime. What that would leave open (and what bmaz has argued is probably covered anyway by agreement) is whether or not the extension for constructive or actual fraud or similar behaviour would also extend the statute vis a vis telecom co-defendants.

OT – Finally, a service (AP) uses the “i” word. After all this time, and only as Bush is leaving and GITMO is becoming Obama’s problem, and after several years of court rulings, finally the word “innocent” is mentioned in connection with GITMO.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..who_s_left

President-elect Barack Obama’s planned review of Guantanamo Bay prisoners, a prelude to closing the detention center, must weigh the threats posed by an extraordinarily diverse group, from die-hard jihadists to innocent men swept up in war.

emph added

]]> By: Palli http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-126403 Palli Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:48:13 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/#comment-126403 <p>I can dream too: some dedicated and patriotic laywers at DOJ and ACLU have been secretly working on this indictment… it will be ready before March 11.</p> I can dream too: some dedicated and patriotic laywers at DOJ and ACLU have been secretly working on this indictment… it will be ready before March 11.

]]> By: drational http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-126384 drational Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:17:20 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/#comment-126384 <p>And does anyone here think Orrin Hatch would support Holder if he did not already have assurances that Holder is not going to pursue indictments against the Bush Administration?</p> <p>Specter must bark like the toothless chihuahua he is; He never does anything about anything he raises a stink about. </p> <p>I think this is Kabuki, but I don’t think it has anything to do with worry about meaningful wiretapping investigations. The Administration, along with the TelCos, has immunity thanks to FISA revision, no?</p> And does anyone here think Orrin Hatch would support Holder if he did not already have assurances that Holder is not going to pursue indictments against the Bush Administration?

Specter must bark like the toothless chihuahua he is; He never does anything about anything he raises a stink about.

I think this is Kabuki, but I don’t think it has anything to do with worry about meaningful wiretapping investigations. The Administration, along with the TelCos, has immunity thanks to FISA revision, no?

]]> By: emptywheel http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-126381 emptywheel Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:14:53 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/#comment-126381 <p>Yup.</p> <p>Pre-formal congressional buy-off (even with the kabuki meeting on March 10, 2004, which I suspect Gonzales’ notes would not be sufficient to turn into real oversight) is a lot easier to prosecute for any number of reasons.</p> Yup.

Pre-formal congressional buy-off (even with the kabuki meeting on March 10, 2004, which I suspect Gonzales’ notes would not be sufficient to turn into real oversight) is a lot easier to prosecute for any number of reasons.

]]> By: bmaz http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-126376 bmaz Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:06:32 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/#comment-126376 <p>Agreed, but the sexiest charges, and most heinous of conduct was the earlier stuff. And the stuff in March of 2004 is a particularly soft, white and exposed underbelly. The problem I see is once you are down to the later charges/crimes, as standalones they are much easier to defend and far more difficult to prosecute, especially with the cover the Congress has given them. Reasonable doubt is going to be a bitch on this stuff if you are looking for criminal convictions. That is exacerbated if you get the sexy items split away and are going forward only on more pedestrian stuff. It is possible, I guess to keep it all in on a continuing conspiracy theory; but that is going to require charging the matter literally as an ongoing criminal cabal/conspiracy at the highest level of government. It is going to be damn near impossible to get the Obama administration to charge individual crimes; picturing them charging as a giant ongoing conspiracy seems a pipe dream. The more you have the individual original crimes fall off the radar from statute expiration, the incrementally weaker the whole effort is.</p> Agreed, but the sexiest charges, and most heinous of conduct was the earlier stuff. And the stuff in March of 2004 is a particularly soft, white and exposed underbelly. The problem I see is once you are down to the later charges/crimes, as standalones they are much easier to defend and far more difficult to prosecute, especially with the cover the Congress has given them. Reasonable doubt is going to be a bitch on this stuff if you are looking for criminal convictions. That is exacerbated if you get the sexy items split away and are going forward only on more pedestrian stuff. It is possible, I guess to keep it all in on a continuing conspiracy theory; but that is going to require charging the matter literally as an ongoing criminal cabal/conspiracy at the highest level of government. It is going to be damn near impossible to get the Obama administration to charge individual crimes; picturing them charging as a giant ongoing conspiracy seems a pipe dream. The more you have the individual original crimes fall off the radar from statute expiration, the incrementally weaker the whole effort is.

]]> By: drational http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-126374 drational Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:56:06 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/#comment-126374 <p>A statute of limitations will not remove the taint from a high crime and misdemeanor, nor will it prevent an SJC or HJC hearing. It will not prevent an impeachment trial.</p> <p>What will prevent these things is Obama, and his stated intention to “move forward”. Unitary executive power is no doubt a hard habit to kick, and I suspect, makes you feel better than Nicorette.</p> A statute of limitations will not remove the taint from a high crime and misdemeanor, nor will it prevent an SJC or HJC hearing. It will not prevent an impeachment trial.

What will prevent these things is Obama, and his stated intention to “move forward”. Unitary executive power is no doubt a hard habit to kick, and I suspect, makes you feel better than Nicorette.

]]> By: WilliamOckham http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-126373 WilliamOckham Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:50:38 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/#comment-126373 <p>Not a lawyer, didn’t stay in Holiday Inn Express, and have political views outside the mainstream, but….</p> <p>I’m not convinced that 2009 is our last chance to get the Bushies. I think it’ll become clear, if the matter is litigated, that the lawbreaking continued right up to the FISA fight of 2008.</p> Not a lawyer, didn’t stay in Holiday Inn Express, and have political views outside the mainstream, but….

I’m not convinced that 2009 is our last chance to get the Bushies. I think it’ll become clear, if the matter is litigated, that the lawbreaking continued right up to the FISA fight of 2008.

]]> By: oldoilfieldhand http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-126371 oldoilfieldhand Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:50:19 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/01/13/orrin-hatch-to-support-holder-yet-the-delay-and-kabuki-continues/#comment-126371 <p>Thanks Marcy. Just knowing that you are watching and listening must make the Republican actors queasy.</p> Thanks Marcy. Just knowing that you are watching and listening must make the Republican actors queasy.

]]>