Comments on: The Holder Delay, the OLC Delay, the SJC Delay http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/ Tue, 24 Nov 2009 05:24:25 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: JohnLopresti http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/comment-page-1/#comment-121796 JohnLopresti Sun, 21 Dec 2008 04:13:55 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/#comment-121796 <p>Sen. Leahy saying <a href="http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202426934090&pos=ataglance" rel="nofollow">Holder </a>hearing one week timeshift relates to his committee’s plan to have an opportunity to consider the nominees in aggregate, and the slowness of making more selections at other DoJ posts than AG, plus some other corporate counsel musings.</p> Sen. Leahy saying Holder hearing one week timeshift relates to his committee’s plan to have an opportunity to consider the nominees in aggregate, and the slowness of making more selections at other DoJ posts than AG, plus some other corporate counsel musings.

]]> By: JohnLopresti http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/comment-page-1/#comment-121775 JohnLopresti Sun, 21 Dec 2008 02:21:13 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/#comment-121775 <p>Technical delay postponed downloading the fas copies of the memos from olc here, but their contents seem historically worthwhile, and seem to point to further utility balancing their early views with the several additional memos the accompanying letter from Senator Leahy describes as not yet public; the way he worded it almost sounded like some committee people probably viewed some of the as yet publically unavailable set of memos. I think Philbin’s coverage of the wide range of topics now in retrospect fairly redundant of what national security experts have examined, but much more supportive of executive ability to do pretty much as it saw fit with any captures, much in the same tenor as the several months later issued Bybee memo. I thought some of Philbin’s referencing inapposite, and daringly unfootnoted, though maybe the mention of the Yoo materials, as well as the unseen memos Leahy references in his objections might have supplied more specificity with respect to precedents. Philbin seems to be reviewing what would appear otherwise in footnotes in the body of his ample review.</p> Technical delay postponed downloading the fas copies of the memos from olc here, but their contents seem historically worthwhile, and seem to point to further utility balancing their early views with the several additional memos the accompanying letter from Senator Leahy describes as not yet public; the way he worded it almost sounded like some committee people probably viewed some of the as yet publically unavailable set of memos. I think Philbin’s coverage of the wide range of topics now in retrospect fairly redundant of what national security experts have examined, but much more supportive of executive ability to do pretty much as it saw fit with any captures, much in the same tenor as the several months later issued Bybee memo. I thought some of Philbin’s referencing inapposite, and daringly unfootnoted, though maybe the mention of the Yoo materials, as well as the unseen memos Leahy references in his objections might have supplied more specificity with respect to precedents. Philbin seems to be reviewing what would appear otherwise in footnotes in the body of his ample review.

]]> By: AnacherForester http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/comment-page-1/#comment-121518 AnacherForester Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:21:27 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/#comment-121518 <p>Delay. Obstruct. Delay.</p> <p>Repeat.</p> <p>It’s the GOP mantra.</p> <p>With the state of the country being what it is, I don’t expect voters to tolerate this much longer.</p> <p>-AF<br /><a href="http://sullyisafraud.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Andrew Sullivan Is A Fraud</a></p> Delay. Obstruct. Delay.

Repeat.

It’s the GOP mantra.

With the state of the country being what it is, I don’t expect voters to tolerate this much longer.

-AF
Andrew Sullivan Is A Fraud

]]> By: al75 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/comment-page-1/#comment-121181 al75 Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:56:26 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/#comment-121181 <p>The legislative branch is crippled IMO due to the need for fund-raising, leaving most legislators in the job of raising cash, not legislating (note that one of the primary reasons given for supporting C. Kennedy as NY Senator is her likely fund-raising ability).</p> The legislative branch is crippled IMO due to the need for fund-raising, leaving most legislators in the job of raising cash, not legislating (note that one of the primary reasons given for supporting C. Kennedy as NY Senator is her likely fund-raising ability).

]]> By: acquarius74 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/comment-page-1/#comment-121134 acquarius74 Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:11:00 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/#comment-121134 <p>Excellent strategy, scribe. </p> <p>There is no statute of limitation on murder. Many captives died as a result of torture in Baghram Prison, Afghanistan and at Abu Ghraib in Iraq and possibly at Camp Cropper in Iraq.</p> <p>If Holder must be AG, my vote for his “acting” deputies would be Bruce Fein as Acting Deputy for Investigation of Torture and Jonathan Turley as “acting” Deputy for Wiretap Investigation.</p> <p>How about Glenn Greenwald as back up nominee for AG?</p> Excellent strategy, scribe.

There is no statute of limitation on murder. Many captives died as a result of torture in Baghram Prison, Afghanistan and at Abu Ghraib in Iraq and possibly at Camp Cropper in Iraq.

If Holder must be AG, my vote for his “acting” deputies would be Bruce Fein as Acting Deputy for Investigation of Torture and Jonathan Turley as “acting” Deputy for Wiretap Investigation.

How about Glenn Greenwald as back up nominee for AG?

]]> By: bmaz http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/comment-page-1/#comment-121126 bmaz Thu, 18 Dec 2008 06:17:19 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/#comment-121126 <p>It is a stiff hurdle/burden to clear, but it is possible to make out a case for tolling the SOLs based upon mischief by the defendant, and thus extend the time for charging. Now I have no idea how plausible it is, but I could at least see an argument that the SOL is tolled while the defendants are, in fact, the ones running the government refusing to investigate and prosecute (thereby obstructing justice). Equitably, they should not be able to profit from their own malfeasance. It is not nearly so simple though.</p> It is a stiff hurdle/burden to clear, but it is possible to make out a case for tolling the SOLs based upon mischief by the defendant, and thus extend the time for charging. Now I have no idea how plausible it is, but I could at least see an argument that the SOL is tolled while the defendants are, in fact, the ones running the government refusing to investigate and prosecute (thereby obstructing justice). Equitably, they should not be able to profit from their own malfeasance. It is not nearly so simple though.

]]> By: emptywheel http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/comment-page-1/#comment-121115 emptywheel Thu, 18 Dec 2008 03:42:54 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/#comment-121115 <p>And if you assume the remaining opinions are just this contradictory, than it’s pretty easy to argue even the opinions are void.</p> <p>Incidentally, in a post I’ve meant to do, OLC also says they didn’t have to hand over these unclassified opinions bc the admin did not rely on the legal reasoning within them.</p> <p>So on one hand they’re argument (a la Goldsmith) that if an OLC opinion says it’s okay, you can’t be prosecuted.</p> <p>On the other hand, they’re withholding the opinions based on the claim that BushCo didn’t rely on the reasoning within the argument.</p> <p>scribe’s right–we need to be talking an extension of SoL. BC this stuff is pretty easy to shred, once you get ahold of it.</p> And if you assume the remaining opinions are just this contradictory, than it’s pretty easy to argue even the opinions are void.

Incidentally, in a post I’ve meant to do, OLC also says they didn’t have to hand over these unclassified opinions bc the admin did not rely on the legal reasoning within them.

So on one hand they’re argument (a la Goldsmith) that if an OLC opinion says it’s okay, you can’t be prosecuted.

On the other hand, they’re withholding the opinions based on the claim that BushCo didn’t rely on the reasoning within the argument.

scribe’s right–we need to be talking an extension of SoL. BC this stuff is pretty easy to shred, once you get ahold of it.

]]> By: radiofreewill http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/comment-page-1/#comment-121111 radiofreewill Thu, 18 Dec 2008 03:03:34 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/#comment-121111 <p>I think you’ve probably highlighted the issue that Goldsmith said concerned ‘them all’ - liability for War Crimes.</p> <p>If Common Article 3 applies - and it almost certainly does - then Bush, with his Policy of Torture, created a Torture Regime loaded with a Lot of Complicit Actors.</p> <p>The only way out of that mess was for Gonzo to declare that Common Article 3 didn’t apply - So They Could Keep the Torture Going - but be able to say that they ‘believed it was legal’ at the time.</p> <p>Except, Goldsmith dis-abused them of the notion that ‘believing’ it wasn’t Torture because CA3 didn’t apply is the same as saying it’s not Murder if the victim isn’t a Citizen.</p> <p>So, everyone wanted Cover after that - which led to the Ex Post Facto Immunities in the DTA and MCA. Except Bush and Gonzo - they chose to Hide Their Torture Authorizations under the umbrella of the UE, instead. </p> <p>So, Bush and Gonzo kept pushing-on, kept coming up with ever-trickier schemes to Keep On Torturing and Avoid Accountability, including the Enhanced Interrogation/Combo Techniques Memo that Gonzo carried around in his briefcase with him - because Comey told him he’d one day be ashamed if ‘that memo’ ever came to light.</p> <p>So, Goldsmith attempted to lead the mis-led Bush Followers away from the Practices Ordered by the Monster Bush - back towards the position that Philbin would have supported - while Bush, himself, Secretly moved even deeper into the Dark Side and ‘Enhanced’ the Torture Program by Combining Techniques of Brutalization on Other Human Beings. </p> <p>I can see why Comey, Philbin and Goldsmith stood against Bush and Gonzo on Torture.</p> I think you’ve probably highlighted the issue that Goldsmith said concerned ‘them all’ – liability for War Crimes.

If Common Article 3 applies – and it almost certainly does – then Bush, with his Policy of Torture, created a Torture Regime loaded with a Lot of Complicit Actors.

The only way out of that mess was for Gonzo to declare that Common Article 3 didn’t apply – So They Could Keep the Torture Going – but be able to say that they ‘believed it was legal’ at the time.

Except, Goldsmith dis-abused them of the notion that ‘believing’ it wasn’t Torture because CA3 didn’t apply is the same as saying it’s not Murder if the victim isn’t a Citizen.

So, everyone wanted Cover after that – which led to the Ex Post Facto Immunities in the DTA and MCA. Except Bush and Gonzo – they chose to Hide Their Torture Authorizations under the umbrella of the UE, instead.

So, Bush and Gonzo kept pushing-on, kept coming up with ever-trickier schemes to Keep On Torturing and Avoid Accountability, including the Enhanced Interrogation/Combo Techniques Memo that Gonzo carried around in his briefcase with him – because Comey told him he’d one day be ashamed if ‘that memo’ ever came to light.

So, Goldsmith attempted to lead the mis-led Bush Followers away from the Practices Ordered by the Monster Bush – back towards the position that Philbin would have supported – while Bush, himself, Secretly moved even deeper into the Dark Side and ‘Enhanced’ the Torture Program by Combining Techniques of Brutalization on Other Human Beings.

I can see why Comey, Philbin and Goldsmith stood against Bush and Gonzo on Torture.

]]> By: Leen http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/comment-page-1/#comment-121110 Leen Thu, 18 Dec 2008 02:59:48 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/#comment-121110 <p>Seems like business would have been good for lots of lawyers in the D.C. area for the last eight years. Busy Busy Busy</p> Seems like business would have been good for lots of lawyers in the D.C. area for the last eight years. Busy Busy Busy

]]> By: Leen http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/comment-page-1/#comment-121106 Leen Thu, 18 Dec 2008 02:47:56 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/17/the-holder-delay-the-olc-delay-the-sjc-delay/#comment-121106 <p>Follow the money during the Bush Cheney years</p> <p>Defense Industries made billions<br /> Oil Industry made billions<br /> Banking Industry just robbed the treasury of billions</p> <p>Mission Accomplished</p> Follow the money during the Bush Cheney years

Defense Industries made billions
Oil Industry made billions
Banking Industry just robbed the treasury of billions

Mission Accomplished

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