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	<title>Comments on: Another 16 Words: Boumediene Bites Bush Again</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/</link>
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		<title>By: ondelette</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107739</link>
		<dc:creator>ondelette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 01:22:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107739</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;No. There is a question of inhumane treatment as well. The treatment should become humane immediately, even if the detention persists.  This is again the problem I had mentioned where some organizations don’t favor closing Guantanamo unless at least the conditions at Guantanamo can be obtained in the places to which the prisoners will be sent. Inhumane treatment, especially if it rises to the level of torture, is a more pressing problem than detention without charge, unless the latter can be remedied very quickly.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In the U.S., there is a tendency to be blind to solitary confinement, and deprivation tortures. There is some odd sense that depriving a prisoner of light and dark distinctions, or of sleep, or locking them in a cell that is cut off from all other prisoners with no access to sunlight isn’t by itself inhumane. Or that all prisoners start at square one when it comes to abuse. So we get these very strange situations where neither the prosecution nor the defense sees something that requires immediate attention as the prisoner degenerates.  All prisoners held for 6 years without charge aren’t equal.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Even Geneva makes this distinction, for civilians, for instance, it bans torture and inhumane treatment outright, but only stipulates that the legitimacy of the detention be revisited every six months (it bans “close confinement” of more than 30 days, too).&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No. There is a question of inhumane treatment as well. The treatment should become humane immediately, even if the detention persists.  This is again the problem I had mentioned where some organizations don’t favor closing Guantanamo unless at least the conditions at Guantanamo can be obtained in the places to which the prisoners will be sent. Inhumane treatment, especially if it rises to the level of torture, is a more pressing problem than detention without charge, unless the latter can be remedied very quickly.</p>
<p>In the U.S., there is a tendency to be blind to solitary confinement, and deprivation tortures. There is some odd sense that depriving a prisoner of light and dark distinctions, or of sleep, or locking them in a cell that is cut off from all other prisoners with no access to sunlight isn’t by itself inhumane. Or that all prisoners start at square one when it comes to abuse. So we get these very strange situations where neither the prosecution nor the defense sees something that requires immediate attention as the prisoner degenerates.  All prisoners held for 6 years without charge aren’t equal.</p>
<p>Even Geneva makes this distinction, for civilians, for instance, it bans torture and inhumane treatment outright, but only stipulates that the legitimacy of the detention be revisited every six months (it bans “close confinement” of more than 30 days, too).</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107727</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 00:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;This is a semantical distinction/argument; the abuse will not stop until he is released.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a semantical distinction/argument; the abuse will not stop until he is released.</p>
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		<title>By: ondelette</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107716</link>
		<dc:creator>ondelette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 23:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107716</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Isn’t the first goal to stop the abuse? His abuse consists of extreme solitary confinement with noise. It’s having a permanent physical and psychological effect. Filing on torture might stop that, while they wrangle about whether or not he should be there at all.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn’t the first goal to stop the abuse? His abuse consists of extreme solitary confinement with noise. It’s having a permanent physical and psychological effect. Filing on torture might stop that, while they wrangle about whether or not he should be there at all.</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107715</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 23:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;No, just seems like the first goal is to get him, and them, out.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, just seems like the first goal is to get him, and them, out.</p>
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		<title>By: ondelette</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107714</link>
		<dc:creator>ondelette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 23:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107714</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I was under the impression that anyone can bring a complaint under the torture and war crimes laws. Is there a restriction that the plaintiff must be not detained?  If the evidence is available that makes the charge serious, why isn’t that sufficient to empanel a grand jury regardless of the circumstances of the victim?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;(that’s a genuine question, your response leads me to believe there is some reason? These acts are not all about lawsuits some of them are about criminal prosecutions, so I don’t understand about the remedies part, please inform)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was under the impression that anyone can bring a complaint under the torture and war crimes laws. Is there a restriction that the plaintiff must be not detained?  If the evidence is available that makes the charge serious, why isn’t that sufficient to empanel a grand jury regardless of the circumstances of the victim?</p>
<p>(that’s a genuine question, your response leads me to believe there is some reason? These acts are not all about lawsuits some of them are about criminal prosecutions, so I don’t understand about the remedies part, please inform)</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107703</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107703</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yeah, I agree; but there is nothing that would be adequate.  Not much reason to discuss adequacy of remedies while he, and they, is/are still detained though.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I agree; but there is nothing that would be adequate.  Not much reason to discuss adequacy of remedies while he, and they, is/are still detained though.</p>
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		<title>By: ondelette</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107696</link>
		<dc:creator>ondelette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107696</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Barbara Olshansky also has an account of these Bosnian-Algerians in her book &lt;em&gt;Democracy Detained&lt;/em&gt;.  Seems the Bosnia-Herzegovina Human Rights Chamber Court has also ruled that the Bosnian Government, in handing these people over to the U.S. violated Article I and Protocols 6 and 7 of the European Convention on Human Rights (&lt;em&gt;Democracy Detained&lt;/em&gt; p.97).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;One of them is also the man I described in the discussion with Hina Shamsi that Christy Hardin Smith moderated the other day, Sabar Lahmar, who is, for all intents and purposes, wasting away and dying at Guantanamo. The results of the solitary confinement and other deprivations on him are that he has lost the use of his legs to neuropathy, and is pretty much incommunicate with the outside world (he lies on his mattress and stares). I had written about him &lt;a href=&quot;http://humanityagainstcrimes.blogspot.com/2008/06/its-been-big-week.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, and Human Rights Watch wrote about him &lt;a href=&quot;http://hrw.org/reports/2008/us0608/us0608web.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, and Emily Bazelon of Slate wrote about him &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.slate.com/id/2138480/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; a long time ago.  I think he has a good case for the Torture Victims Protection Act, the War Crimes Act and the Torture Act. I don’t see any reason why just getting him released would be adequate, given that he was innocent from the beginning.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barbara Olshansky also has an account of these Bosnian-Algerians in her book <em>Democracy Detained</em>.  Seems the Bosnia-Herzegovina Human Rights Chamber Court has also ruled that the Bosnian Government, in handing these people over to the U.S. violated Article I and Protocols 6 and 7 of the European Convention on Human Rights (<em>Democracy Detained</em> p.97).</p>
<p>One of them is also the man I described in the discussion with Hina Shamsi that Christy Hardin Smith moderated the other day, Sabar Lahmar, who is, for all intents and purposes, wasting away and dying at Guantanamo. The results of the solitary confinement and other deprivations on him are that he has lost the use of his legs to neuropathy, and is pretty much incommunicate with the outside world (he lies on his mattress and stares). I had written about him <a href="http://humanityagainstcrimes.blogspot.com/2008/06/its-been-big-week.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, and Human Rights Watch wrote about him <a href="http://hrw.org/reports/2008/us0608/us0608web.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a>, and Emily Bazelon of Slate wrote about him <a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2138480/" rel="nofollow">here</a> a long time ago.  I think he has a good case for the Torture Victims Protection Act, the War Crimes Act and the Torture Act. I don’t see any reason why just getting him released would be adequate, given that he was innocent from the beginning.</p>
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		<title>By: RevBev</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107646</link>
		<dc:creator>RevBev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:08:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Can’t there be both impeachment and prosecution…high crimes and misdemeanors, crimes against humanity, etc.  As they say: throw the book at these criminals who have been outlaws and allowed to skate and to flaunt their abuses for so.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can’t there be both impeachment and prosecution…high crimes and misdemeanors, crimes against humanity, etc.  As they say: throw the book at these criminals who have been outlaws and allowed to skate and to flaunt their abuses for so.</p>
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		<title>By: Spokane61</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107617</link>
		<dc:creator>Spokane61</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 18:40:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;For me the point is “Will the new Obama administration investigate, indite, and convict”, or will we be asked to close our eyes and pretend that if George is out of town it is all over. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This sort of criminal conspiracy requiers the active cooperation of a large number of people at all levels of the military and the government. Each and every one of them should be found, tried, convicted and jailed for these outrages against humanity.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Will Obama have the balls? I dont know. I voted for him this morning, I hope that I will not be regretting that choice.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For me the point is “Will the new Obama administration investigate, indite, and convict”, or will we be asked to close our eyes and pretend that if George is out of town it is all over. </p>
<p>This sort of criminal conspiracy requiers the active cooperation of a large number of people at all levels of the military and the government. Each and every one of them should be found, tried, convicted and jailed for these outrages against humanity.</p>
<p>Will Obama have the balls? I dont know. I voted for him this morning, I hope that I will not be regretting that choice.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107612</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 18:18:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/10/17/another-16-words-boumediene-bites-bush-again/#comment-107612</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Another small bite from the filing for the Algerians.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Gov had been using as “evidence” for quite some period of time information from an FBI interview with a US prisoner, Enaam Arnaout.  The lawyers - our DOJ lawyers, floated that info to the court as credible evidence.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Indeed, as the lawyers for the detainees disovered, Mr. Arnaout had even petitioned in his proceedings for leniency in sentencing bc of all the cooperation he provided to Gov.  Oddly, about the time that the lawyers for the detainees were making that discovery and a few days before they were supposed to be allowed to interview Mr. Arnaout, gov went in and hastily withdrew that FBI interview info.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;See, it turns out that back when Mr. Arnaout had petitioned for leniency in sentencing, gov had objected to leniency, telling the court in Mr. Arnaout’s proceedings that Arnaout’s “cooperation” had all been a pack of lies.&lt;br /&gt;
Got that?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What gov had argued to a court in one proceeding were lies, gov was putting under seal and speaking about ominously and mysteriously as “evidence” of terrorism in another proceeding.  Once some real lawyers showed up who were going to expose the fraud on the court, the “evidence” was withdrawn.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;No harm, no foul, move along. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Some of this you wouldn’t make up.  That one reminds me of the bipolar chef held for years in isolation. Years In Isolation.  Bc “some guy” (who got paid $$$$) told “someone” that the bipolar chef ran, yes RAN, an al-Qaeda training camp during xyz.  Once a real lawyer actually got involved, it was pretty damn easy to prove that the bipolar chef had been working and making souffles in Mayfair when he was supposed to be in Afghanistan.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another small bite from the filing for the Algerians.</p>
<p>Gov had been using as “evidence” for quite some period of time information from an FBI interview with a US prisoner, Enaam Arnaout.  The lawyers &#8211; our DOJ lawyers, floated that info to the court as credible evidence.  </p>
<p>Indeed, as the lawyers for the detainees disovered, Mr. Arnaout had even petitioned in his proceedings for leniency in sentencing bc of all the cooperation he provided to Gov.  Oddly, about the time that the lawyers for the detainees were making that discovery and a few days before they were supposed to be allowed to interview Mr. Arnaout, gov went in and hastily withdrew that FBI interview info.</p>
<p>See, it turns out that back when Mr. Arnaout had petitioned for leniency in sentencing, gov had objected to leniency, telling the court in Mr. Arnaout’s proceedings that Arnaout’s “cooperation” had all been a pack of lies.<br />
Got that?</p>
<p>What gov had argued to a court in one proceeding were lies, gov was putting under seal and speaking about ominously and mysteriously as “evidence” of terrorism in another proceeding.  Once some real lawyers showed up who were going to expose the fraud on the court, the “evidence” was withdrawn.</p>
<p>No harm, no foul, move along. </p>
<p>Some of this you wouldn’t make up.  That one reminds me of the bipolar chef held for years in isolation. Years In Isolation.  Bc “some guy” (who got paid $$$$) told “someone” that the bipolar chef ran, yes RAN, an al-Qaeda training camp during xyz.  Once a real lawyer actually got involved, it was pretty damn easy to prove that the bipolar chef had been working and making souffles in Mayfair when he was supposed to be in Afghanistan.</p>
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