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	<title>Comments on: FBI Still Using Shiny Objects to Distract from Their Flimsy Anthrax Case</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/</link>
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		<title>By: SheilaCasey</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100400</link>
		<dc:creator>SheilaCasey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100400</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Many of you are on the right track.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;On August 31, 2008 I sent Senator Leahy my 2700 word article from &lt;em&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/bruce-ivins-fall-guy-to-cover-secret-anthrax-weaponization-program/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dissident Voice&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt; about why Ivins must be innocent, and I explicitly make the case that the FBI’s role here is to divert attention from our illegal bio-weapons programs at Dugway in Utah and Battelle Memorial Labs in Jefferson, Ohio, which are revealed in the key Sept. 4, 2001 article in the NY Times, as dairymaid mentions above.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many of you are on the right track.  </p>
<p>On August 31, 2008 I sent Senator Leahy my 2700 word article from <em><a href="http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/bruce-ivins-fall-guy-to-cover-secret-anthrax-weaponization-program/" rel="nofollow">Dissident Voice</a></em> about why Ivins must be innocent, and I explicitly make the case that the FBI’s role here is to divert attention from our illegal bio-weapons programs at Dugway in Utah and Battelle Memorial Labs in Jefferson, Ohio, which are revealed in the key Sept. 4, 2001 article in the NY Times, as dairymaid mentions above.</p>
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		<title>By: R.H. Green</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100164</link>
		<dc:creator>R.H. Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100164</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;“One of the things we should have learned…” and “somebody did learn those things, and that was the whole point”.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;WO, When you can find the time, I’d like to hear you amplify on these points. I assume that what you mean by “the whole point”, is a reference to the purpose of the mailings, and that’s an avenue worthy of exploration.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;PS I agree about the term “weaponization”; I suggest we consider (in this forum) the term “refined” or “improved”.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“One of the things we should have learned…” and “somebody did learn those things, and that was the whole point”.</p>
<p>WO, When you can find the time, I’d like to hear you amplify on these points. I assume that what you mean by “the whole point”, is a reference to the purpose of the mailings, and that’s an avenue worthy of exploration.</p>
<p>PS I agree about the term “weaponization”; I suggest we consider (in this forum) the term “refined” or “improved”.</p>
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		<title>By: pdaly</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100121</link>
		<dc:creator>pdaly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:00:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100121</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;There are enough scientists at Ft. Detrick and other bioweapon research facilities and plenty enough scientists brought in on the case as consultants by the FBI that I find it odd a ‘more definitive evidence set’, as you say, has not been provided to the public to date. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If it implicated Ivins as the anthrax mailer and implicated him as the &lt;em&gt;sole&lt;/em&gt; mailer, I suppose it would have been placed out there by now. Better for the government to keep things murky.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Molecular biologist and bioweapons consultant Prof. Matthew Meselson was quoted in a link I read that the FBI showed him electron micrographs of the anthrax mailings. Meselson did not see any sign of silicon coating nor of milling to achieve uniform size. Maybe &lt;em&gt;he&lt;/em&gt; is in a position to tell us more, but perhaps he signed a nondisclosure form with the government. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The first time I saw Meselson speak about the anthrax attack was on the evening news right after people died from anthrax. Meselson “helpfully” suggested that we need to know more about this anthrax strain. That it could have been bioengineered to be resistant to Cipro and all known medical treatments of natural anthrax.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are enough scientists at Ft. Detrick and other bioweapon research facilities and plenty enough scientists brought in on the case as consultants by the FBI that I find it odd a ‘more definitive evidence set’, as you say, has not been provided to the public to date. </p>
<p>If it implicated Ivins as the anthrax mailer and implicated him as the <em>sole</em> mailer, I suppose it would have been placed out there by now. Better for the government to keep things murky.</p>
<p>Molecular biologist and bioweapons consultant Prof. Matthew Meselson was quoted in a link I read that the FBI showed him electron micrographs of the anthrax mailings. Meselson did not see any sign of silicon coating nor of milling to achieve uniform size. Maybe <em>he</em> is in a position to tell us more, but perhaps he signed a nondisclosure form with the government. </p>
<p>The first time I saw Meselson speak about the anthrax attack was on the evening news right after people died from anthrax. Meselson “helpfully” suggested that we need to know more about this anthrax strain. That it could have been bioengineered to be resistant to Cipro and all known medical treatments of natural anthrax.</p>
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		<title>By: WilliamOckham</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100120</link>
		<dc:creator>WilliamOckham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100120</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Don’t have time to collate my sources (still dealing with being in the middle of millions of people without power), but there were significant differences between the first and second wave samples (photographic evidence is available). ‘Weaponized’ is a loaded term. The anthrax sent to the Senate was definitely ‘weaponized’ in the sense that it was processed to make it easier to inhale. One of the things we should have learned from the attacks is that many of the assumptions made about anthrax as a weapon were wrong. Indeed, in tinfoil hat land I would assert that maybe somebody did learn those things and that was the whole point.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don’t have time to collate my sources (still dealing with being in the middle of millions of people without power), but there were significant differences between the first and second wave samples (photographic evidence is available). ‘Weaponized’ is a loaded term. The anthrax sent to the Senate was definitely ‘weaponized’ in the sense that it was processed to make it easier to inhale. One of the things we should have learned from the attacks is that many of the assumptions made about anthrax as a weapon were wrong. Indeed, in tinfoil hat land I would assert that maybe somebody did learn those things and that was the whole point.</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100111</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 05:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100111</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I tried the same analysis you are working here a while back; not sure when, but not long after ivins came into the public discussion.  Problem is, the uncertainty as to exactly what the involvement of silica/silicon was, or even whether there was any involvement, and whether there was a difference between the first wave samples and second wave samples - it has all been confused and clouded by contradictory and ambiguous statements since the get go.  it is all over the road; there is no way to really get a grip on it without a more definitive evidence set.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tried the same analysis you are working here a while back; not sure when, but not long after ivins came into the public discussion.  Problem is, the uncertainty as to exactly what the involvement of silica/silicon was, or even whether there was any involvement, and whether there was a difference between the first wave samples and second wave samples &#8211; it has all been confused and clouded by contradictory and ambiguous statements since the get go.  it is all over the road; there is no way to really get a grip on it without a more definitive evidence set.</p>
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		<title>By: pdaly</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100110</link>
		<dc:creator>pdaly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 04:24:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100110</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;clarification: if the anthrax was coated on the outside by ‘fumed’ silicon, then this is evidence of weaponized anthrax–implying state sponsor. If on the other hand the anthrax naturally produced a silica coat (not silicon coat) or incorporated silica inside itself (as apparently a close cousin to anthrax “b. cereus” does), then the sample of anthrax is not necessarily weaponized  (read: obtained from a government lab).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;However, the lack of culture medium debris in the Leahy sample indicates at the very least that someone took great care and time to produce pure samples. Such a person would know plenty about anthrax to know its extreme ability to float and kill anyone who inhaled its spores.&lt;br /&gt;
Nonweaponized anthrax of this variety is still a weapon. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Am I understanding the silicon/no silicon timeline correctly:&lt;br /&gt;
Was the silica/silicon issue pushed to prove a biolab source when the FBI thought they had Ivins pegged as the anthrax mailer? Then the “no silicon” meme being pushed more now that the FBI’s timeline doesn’t implicate Ivins? This way we don’t have to implicate another goverment lab?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>clarification: if the anthrax was coated on the outside by ‘fumed’ silicon, then this is evidence of weaponized anthrax–implying state sponsor. If on the other hand the anthrax naturally produced a silica coat (not silicon coat) or incorporated silica inside itself (as apparently a close cousin to anthrax “b. cereus” does), then the sample of anthrax is not necessarily weaponized  (read: obtained from a government lab).</p>
<p>However, the lack of culture medium debris in the Leahy sample indicates at the very least that someone took great care and time to produce pure samples. Such a person would know plenty about anthrax to know its extreme ability to float and kill anyone who inhaled its spores.<br />
Nonweaponized anthrax of this variety is still a weapon. </p>
<p>Am I understanding the silicon/no silicon timeline correctly:<br />
Was the silica/silicon issue pushed to prove a biolab source when the FBI thought they had Ivins pegged as the anthrax mailer? Then the “no silicon” meme being pushed more now that the FBI’s timeline doesn’t implicate Ivins? This way we don’t have to implicate another goverment lab?</p>
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		<title>By: pdaly</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100109</link>
		<dc:creator>pdaly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 03:59:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100109</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I guess I’m being hopelessly spun by the media reports. I cannot keep straight whether the Leahy letter anthrax was or was not weaponized, nor can I tell whether Ivins’ anthrax was or was not a genetic match (including the genetic diversity that creeps in after anthrax is cultured) to the Leahy letter anthrax both before and after Ivins was made the prime suspect.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If silica was in/on the deadly Leahy anthrax (it presumably it was there at the time the letter arrived in the Senate office) then anyone involved in sending it would be an accessory and not an accessory after the fact.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Leahy believes there may be accessories after the fact (people in the know who are not coming forward and are therefore criminals after the fact. Criminals because two people died from contact with the Leahy letter). I found the following Sen. Leahy interview published Sept 5, 2007 by the &lt;a href=&quot;http://vermontdailybriefing.com/?p=729&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Vermont Daily Briefing&lt;/a&gt; where Sen. Leahy states as much. (I apologize if this has already been reviewed in prior posts)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt; Leahy: I’m a little sensitive on this one, because two people died touching an envelope I was supposed to open.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;VDB: Sure.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Leahy: I feel badly for them, and for their families. And we spent three years, Marcelle and I couldn’t go anywhere without heavily armed people around us. Finally, I said, This guy’s not going to try anything, and our family wants our privacy back. [Meditatively] I wish they had turned this investigation over to some good sheriff or police chief somewhere. I think it’s been very badly handled.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;VDB: Yeah, I don’t think there’s any other way to look at it. And when you call it what it is, it was biological warfare conducted against the highest levels of the US government.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Leahy: What I want to know — I have a theory. But what I want to know is why me, why Tom Daschle, why Tom Brokaw?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;VDB: Right. That all fits into the profile of a kind of hard-core and obviously insane ideologue on the far Right, somebody who would fixate on especially Tom Daschle, who at that point was the target of daily, vitriolic attacks on Right-wing talk radio.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Leahy: [Slowly, with a little shake of the head] I don’t think it’s somebody insane. I’d accept everything else you said. But I don’t think it’s somebody insane. And I think there are people within our government — certainly from the source of it — who know where it came from. [Taps the table to let that settle in] And these people may not have had anything to do with it, but they certainly know where it came from.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I’m being hopelessly spun by the media reports. I cannot keep straight whether the Leahy letter anthrax was or was not weaponized, nor can I tell whether Ivins’ anthrax was or was not a genetic match (including the genetic diversity that creeps in after anthrax is cultured) to the Leahy letter anthrax both before and after Ivins was made the prime suspect.</p>
<p>If silica was in/on the deadly Leahy anthrax (it presumably it was there at the time the letter arrived in the Senate office) then anyone involved in sending it would be an accessory and not an accessory after the fact.</p>
<p>Leahy believes there may be accessories after the fact (people in the know who are not coming forward and are therefore criminals after the fact. Criminals because two people died from contact with the Leahy letter). I found the following Sen. Leahy interview published Sept 5, 2007 by the <a href="http://vermontdailybriefing.com/?p=729" rel="nofollow">Vermont Daily Briefing</a> where Sen. Leahy states as much. (I apologize if this has already been reviewed in prior posts)</p>
<blockquote><p> Leahy: I’m a little sensitive on this one, because two people died touching an envelope I was supposed to open.</p>
<p>VDB: Sure.</p>
<p>Leahy: I feel badly for them, and for their families. And we spent three years, Marcelle and I couldn’t go anywhere without heavily armed people around us. Finally, I said, This guy’s not going to try anything, and our family wants our privacy back. [Meditatively] I wish they had turned this investigation over to some good sheriff or police chief somewhere. I think it’s been very badly handled.</p>
<p>VDB: Yeah, I don’t think there’s any other way to look at it. And when you call it what it is, it was biological warfare conducted against the highest levels of the US government.</p>
<p>Leahy: What I want to know — I have a theory. But what I want to know is why me, why Tom Daschle, why Tom Brokaw?</p>
<p>VDB: Right. That all fits into the profile of a kind of hard-core and obviously insane ideologue on the far Right, somebody who would fixate on especially Tom Daschle, who at that point was the target of daily, vitriolic attacks on Right-wing talk radio.</p>
<p>Leahy: [Slowly, with a little shake of the head] I don’t think it’s somebody insane. I’d accept everything else you said. But I don’t think it’s somebody insane. And I think there are people within our government — certainly from the source of it — who know where it came from. [Taps the table to let that settle in] And these people may not have had anything to do with it, but they certainly know where it came from.</p>
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		<title>By: pdaly</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100107</link>
		<dc:creator>pdaly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 03:44:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100107</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;There were Mormons running my school. They thought I intended to incite a riot.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;lol. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Cannot for the life of me figure out what you would be planning to do that the Mormons would fear could incite a riot. Hope you can tell us more. My first and only thought, you threatened to do a Patty Hearst and appear on stage with a supersoaker filled with coffee.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>There were Mormons running my school. They thought I intended to incite a riot.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>lol. </p>
<p>Cannot for the life of me figure out what you would be planning to do that the Mormons would fear could incite a riot. Hope you can tell us more. My first and only thought, you threatened to do a Patty Hearst and appear on stage with a supersoaker filled with coffee.</p>
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		<title>By: R.H. Green</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100085</link>
		<dc:creator>R.H. Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 23:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100085</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for that; it would take quite a search to try to find the info I did not correctly recall. BL has a facilty in Fredrick, but not at Princeton, according to the guide you furnished.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that; it would take quite a search to try to find the info I did not correctly recall. BL has a facilty in Fredrick, but not at Princeton, according to the guide you furnished.</p>
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		<title>By: radiofreewill</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100083</link>
		<dc:creator>radiofreewill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 23:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/09/17/fbi-still-using-shiny-objects-to-distract-from-their-flimsy-anthrax-case/#comment-100083</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Here’s a listing of Battelle’s Locations:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.battelle.org/locations/index.aspx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.battelle.org/locations/index.aspx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here’s a listing of Battelle’s Locations:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.battelle.org/locations/index.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.battelle.org/locations/index.aspx</a></p>
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