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	<title>Comments on: FISA Redux Again: The Slippery Slope Leads Down A Rabbit Hole</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/</link>
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		<title>By: yonodeler</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-95870</link>
		<dc:creator>yonodeler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 06:07:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/#comment-95870</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I should add that it may not be necessary to leave the broadband modem turned off for several hours to cause an IP address change. Even leaving it turned off for a short while may be enough. Trial and error and IP address checking are all I can suggest.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should add that it may not be necessary to leave the broadband modem turned off for several hours to cause an IP address change. Even leaving it turned off for a short while may be enough. Trial and error and IP address checking are all I can suggest.</p>
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		<title>By: yonodeler</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-95867</link>
		<dc:creator>yonodeler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 05:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/#comment-95867</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Most web users won’t go as far as I do to limit exposure of personal data; some go further, but most of them know a lot more about IT than I do, I assume. While none of us who uses telecommunications and the Internet will entirely avoid leaving information trails—our ISPs and telephone service providers accumulate much information about activities of every validly identified customer, as I hope we all know—there are several measures that can reduce the amount of information web sites can accumulate. I have found this EFF white paper, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.eff.org/wp/six-tips-protect-your-search-privacy&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Six Tips to Protect Your Search Privacy&lt;/a&gt;, to be helpful. Even for those who would not consider going as far as using anonymizing software, EFF provides useful facts that many experienced users don’t know about or haven’t really thought about; such as this one from the white paper:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;… if you have a dynamic IP address on a broadband connection, you will need to turn your modem off regularly to make the address change. The best way to do this is to turn your modem off when you finish with your computer for the day, and leave it off overnight.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If you are connecting directly as a very large majority of web users are, not using proxy, how can making your IP address change make a difference, if each IP address logged from your visits to a site can be traced to the ISP that can identify you? Well, at least a visited site not in possession of your identity is not able to collate all your visits and related activity there to one IP address if you do not always visit using the same one. Cookie preferences also make a difference as to how much web sites can learn about us. We don’t have to make everything easy for the grabbers of our personal data.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Using Tor or other anonymizing software or changing proxy, and some other protective measures, can result in being misunderstood and even in being denied access to some web sites. Some admins even seem resentful, but they should realize that it’s not all about them. A user may consider a site’s owners and admins to have straightforward intentions, a sound privacy policy, and impeccable ethics, but may be concerned about security vulnerabilities of the site, or may be concerned about the consequences of compulsory legal process and of government requests and demands for information. How many site and service owners would contest to the utmost broad government requests or demands (such as National Security Letters) for personal information and information that can be readily collated to personal files, and what would their chances of prevailing be?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most web users won’t go as far as I do to limit exposure of personal data; some go further, but most of them know a lot more about IT than I do, I assume. While none of us who uses telecommunications and the Internet will entirely avoid leaving information trails—our ISPs and telephone service providers accumulate much information about activities of every validly identified customer, as I hope we all know—there are several measures that can reduce the amount of information web sites can accumulate. I have found this EFF white paper, <a href="http://www.eff.org/wp/six-tips-protect-your-search-privacy" rel="nofollow">Six Tips to Protect Your Search Privacy</a>, to be helpful. Even for those who would not consider going as far as using anonymizing software, EFF provides useful facts that many experienced users don’t know about or haven’t really thought about; such as this one from the white paper:</p>
<blockquote><p>… if you have a dynamic IP address on a broadband connection, you will need to turn your modem off regularly to make the address change. The best way to do this is to turn your modem off when you finish with your computer for the day, and leave it off overnight.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>If you are connecting directly as a very large majority of web users are, not using proxy, how can making your IP address change make a difference, if each IP address logged from your visits to a site can be traced to the ISP that can identify you? Well, at least a visited site not in possession of your identity is not able to collate all your visits and related activity there to one IP address if you do not always visit using the same one. Cookie preferences also make a difference as to how much web sites can learn about us. We don’t have to make everything easy for the grabbers of our personal data.  </p>
<p>Using Tor or other anonymizing software or changing proxy, and some other protective measures, can result in being misunderstood and even in being denied access to some web sites. Some admins even seem resentful, but they should realize that it’s not all about them. A user may consider a site’s owners and admins to have straightforward intentions, a sound privacy policy, and impeccable ethics, but may be concerned about security vulnerabilities of the site, or may be concerned about the consequences of compulsory legal process and of government requests and demands for information. How many site and service owners would contest to the utmost broad government requests or demands (such as National Security Letters) for personal information and information that can be readily collated to personal files, and what would their chances of prevailing be?</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-95838</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 01:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/#comment-95838</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Since you mention MI-5:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/22/uksecurity.guantanamo?gusrc=rss&amp;feed=uknews&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2.....eed=uknews&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;MI5 criticised for role in case of torture, rendition and secrecy&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;MI5 participated in the unlawful interrogation of a British resident now held in Guantánamo Bay, the high court found yesterday in a judgment raising serious questions about the conduct of Britain’s security and intelligence agencies.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;One MI5 officer was so concerned about incriminating himself that he initially declined to answer questions from the judges even in private, the judgment reveals. . .&lt;br /&gt;
. . .the officer, Witness B, was questioned about alleged war crimes under the international criminal court act, including torture. The full evidence surrounding Witness B’s evidence, and the judges’ findings, remain secret.
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;They pretty much add to the evidence supporting his story about Morocco. The court finds he was held illegally in Pakistan and that MI-5 knew and provided more than passive assistance to the US nationals who were involved in the illegal detention.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;To the point, the Judges have said there is no way Binyam Mohammed can have a fair trial before the miltiary commission without his lawyers getting access to information that the British gov is withholding:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Mohamed is due to be tried for terrorist offences before a US military commission in Guantánamo Bay as a result of confessions he says were extracted by torture. He faces the death penalty if found guilty. &lt;strong&gt;Without information held by the British government, he could not have a fair trial &lt;/strong&gt;“as he will not be able to try to establish the only answer he has to the confessions - namely that they were involuntary and abstracted from him by wrongful treatment”, the judges said.
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt; emph added.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Millband says he has given info to the US, but the US won’t release it and Millband says he won’t either.  Because this time, the US’s Prince W is playing the Saudi role of Bandahar.  If Millband discloses info, the US will be very angry and it will ‘harm’ the intelligence relationship between England and the US.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’m guessing he hasn’t read Suskind’s book about all the lies the Brits got from the US anyway - or how we punked them on the Pakistani arrest that sent them into a national security tailspin trying to roll up their surveillance suspects.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The court, btw, has said, **we’ll make the decision on what will be released, Mr. Millband.  Don’t you worry your pretty little head **&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;From the article:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Clive Stafford Smith, director of Reprieve, the legal rights group also defending Mohamed, said: “The British government may have been accused of being Bush’s poodle, but the British courts remain bulldogs when it comes to human rights.”
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since you mention MI-5:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/22/uksecurity.guantanamo?gusrc=rss&amp;feed=uknews" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2&#8230;..eed=uknews</a></p>
<p>MI5 criticised for role in case of torture, rendition and secrecy</p>
<blockquote><p>MI5 participated in the unlawful interrogation of a British resident now held in Guantánamo Bay, the high court found yesterday in a judgment raising serious questions about the conduct of Britain’s security and intelligence agencies.</p>
<p>One MI5 officer was so concerned about incriminating himself that he initially declined to answer questions from the judges even in private, the judgment reveals. . .<br />
. . .the officer, Witness B, was questioned about alleged war crimes under the international criminal court act, including torture. The full evidence surrounding Witness B’s evidence, and the judges’ findings, remain secret.
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>They pretty much add to the evidence supporting his story about Morocco. The court finds he was held illegally in Pakistan and that MI-5 knew and provided more than passive assistance to the US nationals who were involved in the illegal detention.</p>
<p>To the point, the Judges have said there is no way Binyam Mohammed can have a fair trial before the miltiary commission without his lawyers getting access to information that the British gov is withholding:</p>
<blockquote><p>Mohamed is due to be tried for terrorist offences before a US military commission in Guantánamo Bay as a result of confessions he says were extracted by torture. He faces the death penalty if found guilty. <strong>Without information held by the British government, he could not have a fair trial </strong>“as he will not be able to try to establish the only answer he has to the confessions &#8211; namely that they were involuntary and abstracted from him by wrongful treatment”, the judges said.
</p>
</blockquote>
<p> emph added.</p>
<p>Millband says he has given info to the US, but the US won’t release it and Millband says he won’t either.  Because this time, the US’s Prince W is playing the Saudi role of Bandahar.  If Millband discloses info, the US will be very angry and it will ‘harm’ the intelligence relationship between England and the US.</p>
<p>I’m guessing he hasn’t read Suskind’s book about all the lies the Brits got from the US anyway &#8211; or how we punked them on the Pakistani arrest that sent them into a national security tailspin trying to roll up their surveillance suspects.  </p>
<p>The court, btw, has said, **we’ll make the decision on what will be released, Mr. Millband.  Don’t you worry your pretty little head **</p>
<p>From the article:</p>
<blockquote><p>Clive Stafford Smith, director of Reprieve, the legal rights group also defending Mohamed, said: “The British government may have been accused of being Bush’s poodle, but the British courts remain bulldogs when it comes to human rights.”
</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: Hmmm</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-95836</link>
		<dc:creator>Hmmm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 01:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Can’t say we weren’t warned:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. The loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or imagined, from abroad.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;– James Madison&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can’t say we weren’t warned:</p>
<blockquote><p>If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. The loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or imagined, from abroad.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>– James Madison</p>
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		<title>By: CTuttle</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-95819</link>
		<dc:creator>CTuttle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 23:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/#comment-95819</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;bmaz, interestingly, MI-5 dissembles the stereotypes for terrorists…  A fascinating &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;read…&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;MI5 has concluded that there is no easy way to identify those who become involved in terrorism in Britain, according to a classified internal research document on radicalisation seen by the Guardian.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The sophisticated analysis, based on hundreds of case studies by the security service, says there is no single pathway to violent extremism.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It concludes that it is not possible to draw up a typical profile of the “British terrorist” as most are “demographically unremarkable” and simply reflect the communities in which they live.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The “restricted” MI5 report takes apart many of the common stereotypes about those involved in British terrorism.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bmaz, interestingly, MI-5 dissembles the stereotypes for terrorists…  A fascinating <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1" rel="nofollow">read…</a></p>
<blockquote><p>MI5 has concluded that there is no easy way to identify those who become involved in terrorism in Britain, according to a classified internal research document on radicalisation seen by the Guardian.</p>
<p>The sophisticated analysis, based on hundreds of case studies by the security service, says there is no single pathway to violent extremism.</p>
<p>It concludes that it is not possible to draw up a typical profile of the “British terrorist” as most are “demographically unremarkable” and simply reflect the communities in which they live.</p>
<p>The “restricted” MI5 report takes apart many of the common stereotypes about those involved in British terrorism.</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: john in sacramento</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-95818</link>
		<dc:creator>john in sacramento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 23:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/#comment-95818</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Related …&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://mparent7777-1.livejournal.com/1394037.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Reddit served National Security Letter&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Related …</p>
<p><a href="http://mparent7777-1.livejournal.com/1394037.html" rel="nofollow">Reddit served National Security Letter</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-95816</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 23:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/#comment-95816</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;18 - btw, not only can I not get any of the letters to open either here or at Conyers site, but if I follow the link to Conyers site I get frozen there. Not sure why and it may all be on my end.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>18 &#8211; btw, not only can I not get any of the letters to open either here or at Conyers site, but if I follow the link to Conyers site I get frozen there. Not sure why and it may all be on my end.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-95815</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/#comment-95815</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I just don’t have time to say all the things I want to on this topic bmaz, but thank you for this post.  It goes to the heart of what has been bothering me so much about so many of the decisions made, from Patriot Act language to the FISA amendments now, to the NSLs and on and on.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Maybe I can put together a coherent comment later, but if not, know that the lack of comment is bc I have too much to say, not too little.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just don’t have time to say all the things I want to on this topic bmaz, but thank you for this post.  It goes to the heart of what has been bothering me so much about so many of the decisions made, from Patriot Act language to the FISA amendments now, to the NSLs and on and on.</p>
<p>Maybe I can put together a coherent comment later, but if not, know that the lack of comment is bc I have too much to say, not too little.</p>
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		<title>By: bobschacht</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-95807</link>
		<dc:creator>bobschacht</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/#comment-95807</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;This scheme would go further even than Bmaz has even said. It’s a bonanza for software developers who want to develop profiling schemes and you betcha–there are an army of them lined up to DOJ and alphabet agencies you never dreamed of that exist to profile you–that’s right you.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Well, the Internet collects “cookies” on us to “help” us. In fact, that kind of data mining is a basic characteristic of the Google, isn’t it? &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;At least on the Internet, you can disable cookies. Unfortunately, you can’t do that in our Brave New World.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“Minority Report” indeed. What began with furriners will soon be applied here at home: people will be arrested (”detained” is the genteel word) who are &lt;strong&gt;suspected&lt;/strong&gt; of planning something illegal. Unfortunately this is not snark. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Bob in HI&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>This scheme would go further even than Bmaz has even said. It’s a bonanza for software developers who want to develop profiling schemes and you betcha–there are an army of them lined up to DOJ and alphabet agencies you never dreamed of that exist to profile you–that’s right you.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Well, the Internet collects “cookies” on us to “help” us. In fact, that kind of data mining is a basic characteristic of the Google, isn’t it? </p>
<p>At least on the Internet, you can disable cookies. Unfortunately, you can’t do that in our Brave New World.</p>
<p>“Minority Report” indeed. What began with furriners will soon be applied here at home: people will be arrested (”detained” is the genteel word) who are <strong>suspected</strong> of planning something illegal. Unfortunately this is not snark. </p>
<p>Bob in HI</p>
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		<title>By: readerOfTeaLeaves</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-95773</link>
		<dc:creator>readerOfTeaLeaves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/21/fisa-redux-again-the-slippery-slope-leads-down-a-rabbit-hole/#comment-95773</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yup. Investment banks?  No oversight.&lt;br /&gt;
Us citizens — soon, they’ll be calling us in for colonoscopies at our local fire stations to make sure they have ALL the data they need.  (Evidently, our assholes aren’t yet as big as theirs are, but oh, well… sad for us.)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Need more evidence about that ’lack of oversight’ part…? The WaPo actually did some reporting today, and it speaks volumes about what a ’helluva job’ these clowns have done ignoring oil speculators:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/20/AR2008082003898.html?hpid=topnews&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....id=topnews&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;No information about secret Energy Task Forces, oil speculators, or WH emails.&lt;br /&gt;
HUGE databases about our height, weight, cognitive functions, eye dilation, fingerprints, DNA, and border crossings.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;”Minority Report” anyone…?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yup. Investment banks?  No oversight.<br />
Us citizens — soon, they’ll be calling us in for colonoscopies at our local fire stations to make sure they have ALL the data they need.  (Evidently, our assholes aren’t yet as big as theirs are, but oh, well… sad for us.)</p>
<p>Need more evidence about that ’lack of oversight’ part…? The WaPo actually did some reporting today, and it speaks volumes about what a ’helluva job’ these clowns have done ignoring oil speculators:<br /><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/20/AR2008082003898.html?hpid=topnews" rel="nofollow">http://www.washingtonpost.com/&#8230;..id=topnews</a></p>
<p>No information about secret Energy Task Forces, oil speculators, or WH emails.<br />
HUGE databases about our height, weight, cognitive functions, eye dilation, fingerprints, DNA, and border crossings.</p>
<p>”Minority Report” anyone…?</p>
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