Bob in HI

first, i don’t think that ivins’s ‘peace of mind’ was exactly that; he had quite a history of questionable behaviors in his past, and then again apparently in his recent past. but i’ll give you that the fbi seems to have exploited that fact to make him their fall guy.

second, i don’t think you sent me on a wild goose chase, as the info on irwin i was confabulating with levy i had dug up during the heat of ivins’s suicide a couple of weeks ago.

i’m still not entirely clear on how you got to levy’s ownership of duley’s workplace. if it was just curiosity about who was ultimately responsible, that’s a decent hunch. however, there is not a strong likelihood that he actually oversaw her work in any way. that would not be that unusual. and though yes, he would have some level of responsibility for her work product as her employer, the way that typically goes is, her license is her own responsibility. if someone goes after it, there may be something in their contract that says the center will provide legal assistance, but that’s not necessarily the case either, as they typically only require malpractice insurance, which covers it.

in other words, most clinics that employ non-med’s require a staff md to sign off on numbers of things. that’s fairly standard. but direct contact between that md and rank and file? not necessarily much if any. direct interaction between the psychiatrist and rank and file counselors is the exception; i’ll put it that way. rare.

in any event, the only way i can see that levy would be called to the carpet here is if there were a civil suit in which he was named, and named for just being the owner and ultimate employer of this woman who was his ‘caregiver’ (i apply that phrase loosely with ms. duley).

and finally, for now, your speculations about levy’s involvement with the fbi’s decision. i don’t really see enough her to go in that direction. all of it so circumstantial, and hindered by the fact that most other psychiatrists have cv’s that look a lot like his. most have worked at a va at some point, and who wouldn’t get experience with ptsd in this day and age, given the war and all? just not enough to raise my red flags on him. and trust me, i had red flags flying in parade flurries when this was all coming out. my sniffer was very suspicious of dr. irwin and his eval. i’m still not entirely clear just when that occurred in the timeline, but i think there is a guess in there.

in any event, i do agree that this all stinks to high heaven and the fbi exploited ivins in order to cover their sorry asses after these were handed to them by hatfill.

now. for anyone who is still with this thread, i’ll be hoping to comment at some point this evening on a conversation i just had with a forensic psychologist about (a) the ethical concerns at that apa – his take is interesting, and (b) how his contact from the fbi about gitmo detainees fits into it all.

but, if no one pipes up, i’ll save it for another day when another post returns us to this topic.

I think this, while close, is a little off. In the main, my impression is that those people are looking for answers. Yes, that can make it look like they are looking to be led, and are led somewhat in the short run, but as they are following, they are also evaluating, and learning about the consequences. Those mega-churches try to provide support groups to reinforce the leader’s messages, and you are right that a certain percentages like the cocoon they find themselves in, and stay there. However, from the long view, it is better to view such people as on a journey rather than at a destination.

Bob in HI

I took my cue from an August 9th post at TPMcafe:

(Mrs Panstreppon from TalkingPointMemo – scroll down to Latest Comments – spurred me on.)

I am surprised at the lack of interest online in Duley’s employer, Dr. Allen L. Levy, and his role in the Ivins investigation. Levy worked at the VA Hospital in Martinsburg, West Virginia for several years.

Levy’s wife, Wendy A. Levy, has been a licensed therapist since 2001 and may have supervised Duley or partnered with her in group sessions when Ivins was a patient.

I am also surprised at how few people have considered the probable extent of the FBI’s involvement in Ivins’ psychiatric treatment. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised at all to learn that some special agents on the case signed up for group therapy earlier this year.

Posted at August 9, 2008 11:38 PM in response to Ivins’

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I found it surprisingly hard to find information on Dr Levy. After finding his CV, it did not state that he owned Comprehensive Counseling Services. It said he owned an outpatient center. I found the addresses listing Levy, Comprehensive Counseling and one other all at the same office. I still haven’t found anything about his wife.

Someone, other than Jean Duley, made decisions about Ivins’ care. I am using logic here. The FBI has closed in on him. They have reportedly declared him a mass murderer to his family and who knows who else. Ivins is, indeed, cracking under the pressure. And somehow he ends up with an addiction counselor (her dead father possibly CIA) with two DUI’s and a new BS in counseling. (I don’t rule out that the second DUI was set up for her.)

She HAD to be supervised (her employer, his wife, the FBI or all).

Allan L. Levy, M.D., C.I.M.E. could well have been setting himself up for a lucrative business in testifying concerning Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. Again, that is my logic based on his VA experience, his 2006 court credentials and something else that I’ll go back and check.

The following is pure speculation: Dr. Levy’s “weakness” might have been that he was promised enormous business from the US government if he would allow whatever subsequently went on in his offices. Pure speculation.

I do know this. Under Dr. Allan L. Levy’s watch, an extremely vulnerable, newly minted counselor with two scary DUI’s was photgraphed and written about in the local paper, was counseling a purported mass murderer, and was allowed to make a fool out of herself with those spelling errors while bringing about a peace order against a man she thought was going to kill her.

The buck stops at the Owner and Medical Director of Comprehensive Counseling. I agree with Mrs Panstreppon. Why isn’t there more information about this?

Gee, I wonder if Dr. Levy will never be able to prove that the “order” came from the highest levels of the government?

what we need to be directing our energies toward instead, in my mind, is the working of the mind to grasp and own the fact of death in life, and how our imbalances of mind contribute to (if not cause) our physical problems. it may seem outlandish to some, but having been in this business as long as i have, i can’t see it any other way.

boy, can’t seem to shake this pontification. apologies, but this is my field.

A person with a conscience might feel he or she must do his or her duty for the sake of the country.

And that person might go over the edge when finding out that he was being hung out to dry.

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I see a pattern of finding people, credentialing them, using them to carry out a plan, and then there’s no paperwork, no phone record, no meeting notes, nothing to verify that the “order” came from the highest offices in the land. (Goodling didn’t come up with those loyalty questions by herself. And the rest of the sorry bunch.)

The savvy ones figure out what has happened to them and get help, back away, have kept enough records, whatever to keep themselves alive and able to continue working somewhere. (Ari Fleischer comes to mind.)

Others who have figured it out and stood up to the pressure have gone to jail (Siegelman, a couple of judges still in jail), had their lives and reputations attacked (the Wilsons, Jill Simpson) and were threatened (Jill Simpson was run off the road, her house was burgled and burned down.)

Some lost their livelihoods (US Attorneys); others lost their lives (four Assistant US Attorneys – Thelma Quince Colbert, Shannon Ross (who were prosecuting Texas companies Novation and Tenet in an 80 billion dollar tax fraud case), Jonathan Luna (declared a suicide until it was found out that he was stabbed in the back, testicles mutilated and hands shredded) and Tom Wales (gun control advocate who was shot in the head in his home office).
Pat Tillman had figured out the war was a sham and was headed home to talk about it. Ciara Durkin worked on a secure base in Afghanistan in the finance department, found something not right, told her family to look into it if anything happened to her. Both were shot in the head.

Bruce Ivins’ experience cost him his livelihood, his peace of mind and his life. His family was pressured (threatened?) and he will never tell us what happened. Or if he did, the note is gone.

I have always had the simplistic theory that has some truth in it, that one of the reasons that we haven’t had significant game changers as meds since Snyder and other’s pioneered psychotropics and made so many contributions after, is because visualizing/studying/getting access to the areas of the brain that are most impacted isextremely difficult while people are alive without harming them.

They come up with tweaks because so many research centers are working hard to minimize the side effects and maximize the efficacy, and it’s more difficult to make significant breakthroughs in this area. As you know some of the latest antipsychotics are significantly expensive (thousands a year) and have significant percentages of major side effects, both short term and long term like white cell depletion, renal damage, etc.

I am optimistic though that there will be game changing breakthoughs and as with most meds, there are zig zags, and much of the research doesn’t pan out, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have been done or that it doesn’t advance towards the goal.

And all the intent nonsense they gobbled about is nuts too – it is the intent to do the act that is important as to specific intent, not the intent for the outcome (which could almost never be “proven” bc someone could always say “I didn’t intend for the bullet I put in his brain to kill him, I just was wondering what would happen”)

They really have reached into places where an ungloved hand should never go.