Login HereI just finished watching the DOJ/FBI press conference on the anthrax investigation, and our crack DOJ wants us to believe that, by providing a lot of circumstantial evidence that places Bruce Ivins in the same room as a flask full of anthrax used in the attack, they've proven not only that Ivins was involved in the crime, but that he was the only one involved in the crime.
In other words, they haven't solved this crime, but they want us to all go away and pretend they have.
Specifically, the only evidence that Ivins actually drove to Princeton to mail the anthrax is that he could have. And that he had a latent obsession for sorority girls from sorority that had an office--but not girls--in the vicinity of the mailbox in question. And that he had a porn-related post office box in an area where it was possible to buy the envelopes used in the crime (though you could probably say that about 300,000 other people had ready access to post offices that also had the same envelopes available). Oh, and by the way, there's no reason to tie Ivins with the handwriting that appeared on those envelopes that so many other people could have gotten, either.
While what I've seen of their case so far makes a pretty compelling argument that Ivins was involved in creating the anthrax, they've got nothing that explains how it walked out of Ft. Detrick, got into envelopes, and got sent to a bunch of media figures and senators. Importantly, their "motive" for the selection of Leahy and Daschle is piss poor.
And, as I've said twice already, if they take their "motive" seriously: a desire to make sure anthrax vaccines were continued, a desire to pass the PATRIOT Act, and a reason to dislike Daschle and Leahy, Scooter Libby (who also lived in an area where he could have gotten those envelopes) and Dick Cheney had much stronger motives for sending the anthrax.
But don't worry, the FBI says. We've got Ivins 200 miles away and no real motive and no real evidence tying him to the emptying the flask, but since we used some really cool science to place Ivins with the flask, that should be good enough for you.
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Per http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08.....tml?ref=us
Thanks for shedding light on the Whitewash and coverup. This has been bungled clearly.
One wonders what were the results of the swabs (e.g. bacterial samples) taken from his residence, vehicles, and other places named in warrants? Did anthrax show up? Was it genetically and phenotypically identical to RMR-1029? Were any specimens of Baccilis subtilis found in the swabs? Were they genetically or phenotypically identical to the B. subtilis contaminants in some of the anthrax letters?
Inquiring minds….
What was the turning point and the information that caused them to shift gears? It seems to me they would have had the details of their most compelling case against Ivins fairly early on. At least during the same time as they were focusing on Hatfill. They would have known about his work schedule, where the powder came from, perhaps his box office, his flimsy reason for working late on the nights that he did. Why then, did they focus so strongly on Hatfill? Why not Ivins until now?
They didn’t have the genetic match until 2006 or 7.
A reporter asked about that–I think he said there was nothing found. He asked if maybe Ivins had cleaned his car. So no evidence there.
I’ll write it again. Judy Miller could be placed with a motive and a higher likelihood, to deposit mail at a Princeton mailbox more so than Ivins.( The release date of her book, GERMS…, just seems creepy in relation to the timing of her “fake” anthrax threat.
I agree with you, Libby and Cheney had much stronger motives. Unfortunately, if looking at Libby and Judy, “their roots” give them motive as well.
One thing I cannot shake is the Israeli spy story having roots in NJ and FL…I mean with all the Israeli spy stories and indictments of recent I guess anything is possible.
Leahy is happy with this?
I just put up an analysis of the “genetics” arguments in the first search warrant at my blog. Suffice it to say that from a technical standpoint, that document raises many more questions than it answers. The key flask, RMR-1029 was referred to interchangeably by Ivins as “Dugway Ames Spores - 1997″. Not addressed in the search warrant with respect to the material in that flask is who grew the culture, how large the culture was, who processed it, if the spores were treated to make them more deadly and where it was produced. Especially important is, if it was produced at Dugway, does the material in RMR-1029 represent all of the material produced in that batch?
I guess I thought they had the genetic match earlier than that or at least some evidence that it came from that lab?
Playing devil’s advocate, it is curious the after hours use of the lab started to spike in August 2001, not after 9/11.
Ivins’ oldest brother said this:
It was his own fault, I thought,” said Tom Ivins. “What he did, he screwed himself up. He got involved with the wrong people.”
I haven’t seen anyone anywhere address this comment.
JimWhite forgot to link to his post, so I’ll do it for him.
How about what that other guy said:
Do you have a link for that?
Assuming that Fort Detrick has extensive security measures in place, who at that facility has the ability to monitor employees’ e-mail?
It will be interesting to see what Leahy’s reaction is to all of this.
~~~
I lived in Bethesda for 6 years, and I have good friends that are Frederick natives. All this I-270 talk is taking me back to my Maryland days…
Here is the link:
http://www.kypost.com/content/.....cf8b55e154
I like that guy’s attitude. But the guy who attended the briefing said that “they,” presumably the FBI, “sat on THESE PEOPLE long enough that they broke them,” which raises the question of whom besides Ivins they sat on and broke.
In warrant return 7-524_M-01 and number of swabs and vac. filters are identified as procuced from the search of his residence. What was found on those?
And returned signed
? Is that accepted in chain of custody?
Later search warrants for the vehicles produced no seizures.
Several nights ago I heard an interview with Tom Ivins. (I believe it was on BBC World Service during the wee hours, but it could have been on NPR.) In any case I was deeply struck by the utter lack of empathy and the total dislike he expressed for his brother. A big contrast with Ted Kazinski’s (the Unibomber) brother.
Here’s an interesting tidbit from the last search warrant:
I think it would be very helpful and informative if they released those letters to Congress and the press.
Also, I didn’t watch the press conference. Is anyone yet suggesting there is a handwriting match for Ivins with the attack letters?
What is the FBI doing? Really?
Granted that a grand jury was on the verge of handing down an indictment, and that the prime suspect, learning that he would be indicted, took his own life–what then?
Is the FBI asking us to believe that his guilt has already been established beyond a reasonable doubt? But this is absurd! No case can be made, no crime can be resolved. Or are they simply trying to convince us that they worked on the case, and made some degree of progress? No doubt they have…. but so what?
Perhaps they’ve despaired of ever solving the case, and feel a need to convince us that they’ve done the best possible job (a point that can never be proven).
Why won’t they just let it go–admitting, as they do so, that mistakes were made along the way? Many a crime goes unsolved, after all.
Perhaps they’re spooked by a general collapse of credibility in other areas of “anti-terrorist” activity–Guantanamo Bay being an instance in which the FBI was marginally involved. By the President’s outing of Plame, perhaps. By his wrecking of the DoJ.
Can anyone speak to the morale of the bureaucrats involved in this side of things?
If they’re trying to soothe my paranoia, they haven’t accomplished very much.
11 - I think the brother sounds kind of nuts himself - wasn’t there some reference to Bruce not being a “man, like me” or something like that?
I have to admit that a review of some of what they have in the first set of docs linked really does make me wonder why Hatfill lit their pinballs up more so than Ivins originally.
Some of what is in there about Ivins and his possible paranoid personality disorder does make you wonder both i) if some of the stories of harassment were made up - along the lines of the sorority targeting him as an enemy, or ii) if not made up, and if the FBI knew about this possible paranoid disorder, why they wouldn’t have pretty much known that they would drive him to something drastic and likely a suicide attempt.
And what of the missing pathogens identified by the army in Ft. Detrick lab sloppyness review in the 1990s (http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2002/01/26/assaad/)?
Has anyone accounted for the strains (genetics) of these missing cultures or specimens? Could they be RMR-1029, that walked away from the lab in the ’90s carried by persons unknown?
Emptywheel, Maybe you’ve found this by now … the hairs are mentioned at the top of page seven in this document:
http://www.usdoj.gov/amerithra.....idavit.pdf
Also, they say that they collected over one thousand anthrax samples and only 8 had the four specific genetic mutations related to RMR-1029. I want to know where those 8 samples came from. Were they all from Ft. Detrick?
Yeah, they don’t tell us anything about those samples other than that they have RMR-1029 as the starter material. Very good question.
Yeah. He worked alone.
Mary @23:
I had that same question last thread and was answered with the block quote below by commenter “plunger”. That they went after Hatfill with his profile suggests to me that they were investigating in good faith and not trying to suppress evidence of a many-fingered conspiracy — especially, as emptywheel explained, when you take into account how Miller and Libby/Cheney sought to utilize the kind of work Hatfill did with MWL’s and that Hatfill therefore would have sort of pointed right back at them.
I’ll warrant you probably know a lot more about the Hatfill investigation already, though.
Please do not get the impression that I am sympathetic toward Tom Ivins. It sounds like Bruce Ivins came from a troubled family.
But considering the antipathy displayed by the older brother, why would he say something like that?
They narrow down to Ft. Detrick based on a conclusion they make about envelopes. Among laboratories only Ft. Detrick was served by places that sold those envelopes.
OT, Bmaz… Rusty defends the pastor’s wife.
How do these cases even get to trial?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....17311.html
Sorry, misunderstood your point.
I’ve read they were estranged.
I have zero aptitude for anything scientific, so maybe someone can explain this to me:
If Ivins gave the feds samples that didn’t match the anthrax in the letters — but when the flasks were examined later they did match — couldn’t it be that someone added the missing ingredients during the time that passed between when Ivins first handed over the samples and when they later re-checked the flasks? In other words, the tell-tale DNA that seals the deal (for some) was added after the initial sampling. Where that DNA would come from, of course, is from the comparison anthrax samples in the FBI lab. Yes? No?
I keep seeing the word “identical” when the DNA is mentioned, but a day or so ago the word “similar” was used. Which is it?
Also, I have read that 10 people had access to the anthrax in question, but today they said it was in Ivins’ sole custody or words to that effect. Which is it?
Yes but …”As a result of this collection, envelopes with printing defects identical to printing defects identified on the envelopes utilized in the anthrax attacks during the fall of 2001 were collected from the Fairfax Main post office in Fairfax, Virginia and the Cumberland and Elkton post offices in Maryland….”
Draw a 7-10 mile circle around Fairfax Main, and you take in probably 1/3 of the DC Metro area including Pentagon, CIA and downtown.
The brother comes off as very wacko, hateful and illiterate. And he openly said he hadn’t been close to his brother in 20 years or something. The stuff from the brother is totally worthless.
SAIC was the contractor that botched the FBI system known as “Trilogy”.
FBI release the results of the swab analysis from Ivin’s house, vehicles, and other places not Ft. Detrick. Any anthrax found?
Certainly something other than this circumstantial crap….
Show evidence that others (10 or more) with access to that lab can be eliminated from suspicion, and why.
Interesting work. I would like to know where the 8 samples tied to RMR-1029 in the FBI’s repository came from. If these were not directly from the original flask or found in the attacks, then that would suggest there were other possible sources for the anthrax used in the attacks.
I also do not understand the following:
RMR-1029 was stored in the B3 biocontainment suite within Building 1425 of the United States Army Medical Institute of Infectious Diseases (USAMRIID), Fort Detrick, Maryland. Access to the suite is afforded only to those personnel who are approved by the USAMRIID Security, Safety, and Special Immunizations Program to have the required background check, training, and medical protection (vaccination or personal protective equipment (PPE)). Dr. Bruce Ivins has unrestricted access to the suite and has been the sole custodian of RMR-1029 since it was first grown in 1997.
OTOH they are saying Ivins was the sole custodian of RMR-1029 but on the other they are saying an indeterminate number of other personnel also had access to the suite and conceivably RMR-1029. We are talking people who would know how to grow and culture anthrax so the amount removed from the RMR-1029 flask for such purposes could have been vanishingly small. Indeed if RMR-1029 was used in experiments, someone could have acquired a sample of it at some point in those.
In any case, my reading of this is that this only proves what we already knew that there was a Fort Detrick connection to the anthrax used in the attacks. It is not, however, a smoking gun and does not point to any specific individual. Yes, Ivins was the custodian of the flask but others had access to it or its contents at various times. What does this prove? Nothing.
I should also point out that Ivins did not leave a suicide note. It is my understanding most suicides do. Yet this has not been remarked on. There have been reports that Ivins had been drinking a lot since the FBI began its pursuit of him, that he had been mixing drugs with his alcohol, and that he had been found unconscious from this on more than one occasion. So I wonder if, in fact, he intentionally tried to commit suicide or if he accidentally OD’ed on a lethal combination. While it has been said he took Tylenol 3’s, I have not heard any mention of a blood alcohol level.
One of the email addresses that appeared in the search warrants is jimmyflathead@yahoo.com … Here’s a post I found in a Google groups search:
jimmyflathead
View profile
More options Dec 21 2005, 12:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.literature
From: jimmyflath…@yahoo.com (jimmyflathead)
Date: 21 Dec 2005 04:00:09 GMT
Local: Wed, Dec 21 2005 12:00 am
Subject: KKG sorority - clearing up a misconception
Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
It’s a common misconception that “Kappa Kappa Gamma” stands for “Key
to the Kingdom of God.” Actually, it stands for “Kalon K’Agathon
Gnothi,” which is Greek for “Know the Beautiful and the Good.” KKG is
big on the virtues of Plato: “THe Good, The True, and The Beautiful.”
The organization is one of the oldest women’s fraternities in the
country, founded in 1870 at Monmouth College. Famous alumnae include
Ashley Judd, Jane Pauley and Kate Jackson.
- Jimmy Flathead
_______________
Could “Flathead” be the Flathead in Montana, and if so, does that have any significance?
Per Glenzilla:
Glenn goes on to show why that is not only not incriminating, but not even a coincidence given the headlines of the day.
But this business of guilt by linguistic association reminded me of the elaborate analysis done by a Vassar English professor, implicating the now exonerated Dr. Hatfill: http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/Bio.....thrax.html
A few items I thought were interesting from the first docs:
* He and his lab appear to have been currently working on “liquid anthrax spore preparations for animal aerosol challenges” which might help explain why, although he was very familiar with use of a lyophilizer he had to borrow one and why his lab crew would have said they didn’t use them for what they were working on.
* He began seeing a psychiatrist in Feb of 2000 and was placed on Celexa and in emails in 2000 indicated that the psychiatrist thought he had paranoid personality disorder, and that he was scared himself by his paranoia attacks, e.g., “What is REALLY scary is the paranoia”
* He also was seeing another woman presumably for counseling then and they had some kind of confrontation and he quit seeing her. He later says in an email that she wanted to have him jailed. “The psychiatrist is helpful only because he prescribes the Celexa. He’s not that easy to talk to, and he doesn’t really pick up on my problems. The woman I saw before I went into group wanted to get me put in jail.”
* There appears to have been some significant incident in spring of 2000 or 2001 (I’d guess 2001, but the language isn’t 100% clear) involving Ivins. From September 7,2001 email, “I was taken off the Special Immunization Program because of what happened last spring, and I’ve just gotten back on it, getting my anthrax and Yellow fever shots.” (emph added) So in Sept 2001, Ivins would have been just getting revaccinated.
* Ivins had apparently been included specifically in criticisms involving the adjuvant selection and use for anthrax vaccines that were alleged to be tied to Gulf War Syndrome and at the end of August, 2001, an email indicated that Ivins was pretty po’d at NBC and the reporter.
* An Ivins email on the sorority indicates that he had paranoid thoughts of them declaring him an enemy and “going after” him in the 60s and 70s.
* Taking their bare allegations at face value (which is difficult bc apparently Ivins disputed some of them and we don’t know what support there is on either side) Ivins early on submitted two samples, neither of which were the actual RMR-1029 to which Ivins and his labbies had access which was the actual original strain. Ivins was, on April 7, 2004, again asked to submit a sample but this time with an FBI special agent accompanying him into the containment room, B-3, and witnessing the sampling and slide prep. Later that day, the flask was confiscated and room sealed. However, not until June 17, 2004 was a report done showing that the RMR-1029 was the originating source. [2 things, what provoked the later in the day seizure after the slides were prepped in April, and would it ordinarily, in such an imporant matter, have taken over 2 mos for that testing to be complete?] In any event, after the report tells them Ivins flask is the originating source - despite his prior two samples that did not match - no one goes to confront him about that until —- MARCH 2005. ??
* When Ivins is confronted in March 2005, he first says that he has known for about a year that his RMR-1029 samples matched the anthrax used, because FBI Agent Steele told him so. Steele denies this. Then Ivins seems to be left alone for two years until he is interviewed again in May 2007 about the samples, and then he says that he knew within 3 mos of the attacks that his RMR-1029 had “unique morphological similarities” to the attack anthrax bc three co-workers told him so, but the co-workers deny telling him that info (again - all this is FBI best face - who knows what would come out with discovery and cross etc.)
* Per the FBI, despite working with lots of law enforcment on the attacks, Ivins never indicated to them that he know his RMR-1029 had “phenotypic similarities ” to the attack anthrax. They pretty much make it sound like he was a source of the focus on Hatfill, when they vaguely say that not only did he not mention his RMR-1029 similarities to the attack anthrax, but he also affirmatively told them that the attack anthrax “resembled that of another researcher” and that the attack anthrax was “dissimilar” to the strains used in Ivins lab.
* Apparently it was not until July of 2007 that anyone bothered to look at Ivins history of medical issues and the fact that he had been “prescribed various psychotropic medications including antidepressants, ntipsychotics, and anti-anxiety, for his mental health issues from 2000 through 2006.”
* The RMR-1029 was kept in the containment room called B-3 which had access controlled and recorded. While Ivins worked late nights from time to time, not only did his late night work spike in August, Sept and Oct of 2001 compared to the previous year and to prior and subsequent months, but his late night access to room B-3 in particular “spiked” and he spent much more time in B-3 at nights and on weekends when no other researchers were present in the containment room than any of the others with access. There was no reason that co-workers or Ivins could give as to why he would need so much access to B-3, the containment room, during this period either based on his experiments or work load.
All of that is just their bare assertions, but to the extent any or much of it is true, it is really troubling that they left all that lying fallow to so over-focus on Hatfill, although it sounds as if there may have been help in turning their focus to Hatfill.
It also seems to make clear that, by at least July of last year, they knew that Ivins had significant mental health issues and they almost had to ahve known that, as a paranoid, he would respond in very “incriminating” ways, guilty or not, if they put pressure on.
I’m not sure what kind of computer access or internet there was in the containment room, B-3, as to whether some ez, if embarassing, answers might lie there.
And the fact that his coworkers are so supportive is pretty strong circumstantial evidence in his favor (I don’t recall there being much of an outpouring over Hatfill, was there??)
I do know that this all brings me back to wondering what kind of screening and supervision (researchers said that prior to the attacks they could take out anything they want, no checking??) is going on at these types of facilities.
NB: There are two brothers, as I recall, and the other one sounds more empathetic.
Foster also got involved in the JonBenet Ramsey case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Foster_(professor)
Wait a minute. Was there any real investigation into HOW he prepared the anthrax? The early reports (which may well have been pure bullshit, I know) described this particular batch of spores as highly weaponized and unlike anything that had ever been seen. We were told that, as far as we know, even the Russians hadn’t been able to come up with something like this. Now we’re being told that some lone lunatic did it by working late for a month?
Not buying it. Here’s the scenario that fits what we’re hearing, from all the “they”s, to the man’s family being shown photos of the dead, to his belief that he was being scapegoated, to his list of co-workers (his team), to his brother’s comment that he fell in with the wrong people: Ivins was part of a team whose job was to design weaponized anthrax. That’s illegal, which in the current Administration means that it’s “classified”, so even now, those involved can’t talk about it without going to jail. It’s why they paid millions of dollars to Hatfield–to shut him up after their second scapegoating effort failed. It’s why so many people had access to weaponized anthrax. It’s why Ivins felt guilty enough to kill himself. It fits.
40 My understanding on the B-3 suite is that Ivins and 9 other coworkers - his lab people - had that access. Calling him “sole custodian” within the same breath of saying several people had access is pretty bizarre.
I think the fact that he was a very unhappy, possible paranoid, makes the lack of a suicide note even odder, and the choice of Tylenol is very weird. Given that he was supposedly going into long and late night rants about his treatment, it’s really hard to believe that the didn’t have any words of recrimination and/or conspiracy he wanted to leave.
44 - I thought that one brother was saying nothing- has he opened up? Missed that.
I really think there’s just not enough info to make any firm decisions and a lot of it goes down different alleys, but from what has been released, it’s pretty clear that no one in their right mind would call this case “closed” without more.
The case is not ‘Closed’ if one has a reasonable and rational mind, but Mary, I would suggest that ‘right’-minded people are ‘close’-minded people, more often than not.
In fact most of our problems come directly from the ‘right’ minded,
Sorry, Mary, but I couldn’t resist.
Just as ‘liberal’ has been made accursed, perhaps the word, ‘right’ is, now, especially suspect.
;~D
I’d think it would take some time to make two grams of anthrax spores as pure as the Daschle and Leahy letters contained.
From NYT article:
“About 45 million of the pre-stamped envelopes were made by a Pennsylvania company between late 2000 and early 2002, and some bore tiny but tell-tale printing defects. Investigators traced those to the Dulles Stamp Distribution Office in Virginia , which serves post offices in Maryland or Virginia, the official documents relate.”
I thought it was Maryland AND Virginia, not Maryland OR Virginia. So now is the story that they don’t even know for sure the envelopes were sold at the post office he used in his hometown?
Mary: I like your point about the suicide note. It does seem that someone in his supposed state of mind would have had plenty to say — especially given his supposed habit of sending long, rambling late night emails.
I am surprised at the amount of ammunition they took out of his house.
He couldn’t do better than Tylenol 3?
Isn’t one of their arguments that the Detrick sample was the only one in the same area as those envelopes were available?
Make that four grams (two in each letter).
Why should anyone address the comments of a brother who hadn’t talked with Ivins for more than a decade?
Sorry — I’m reading and writing on the fly, and I’m remembering from a couple of days ago, so I can’t recall exactly how much the second brother said. I just remember that he was clearly mourning. He sounded just the way you would expect a family member to sound.
It was partly that that made the oldest brother’s comments stand out.
Mind you, I think that other people’s families are always going to be puzzles to most of us. Many people react to death, or even just trouble, in ways that appear very cold on the surface. And we never really know what that means unless we get to know the individuals themselves very well.
Exactly. They can’t tell me in the amount of time he had in those “spiked hours” working late that he single-handedly designed, developed, created and implemented a method to coat spores in poly glass (as mentioned by some research and repeated in one of these threads) for weaponization, without detection until a handful of years later.
Further, this guy sounds like an escapee from one of Ewen Cameron’s projects. So does his extremely detached older brother.
I can’t tell what they’re trying to hide here: the government’s culpability in this crime, or the fact that there remains a domestic terrorist on the loose they’ve never been able to bring to justice.
Imagine what we might think as a country if we were to snap out of our somnolence and realize that we were attacked from within — and these jackasses in office were either part of the attack, or can’t find their asses with both hands let alone keep us safe from the next attack.
48 - but isn’t right, left? Aren’t the lefties “right minded” and the righties, “left minded”
I’m too confused now. I come from a family were there are not enough corners on normal tables to accomodate all the left-handed, right minded folk.
50 - actually Hugh was the one who mentioned it first, I was just agreeing with him (and you now too) that it seems a point that merits a mention.
Rayne,
If - and that’s a big if - I understand it correctly, he washed and washed and washed the spores in northeast water until they were so pure, so free of impurities, that they literally floated into the air when freed from the envelope.
Was he washing spores for a few nights?
This is where you get into questions about the Hatfill suit, I think, and some of the things they were doing in that.
Mary;
LOL!
I bow to your superior wit and hemispherical wisdom.
;~D
“All of that is just their bare assertions, but to the extent any or much of it is true, it is really troubling that they left all that lying fallow to so over-focus on Hatfill, although it sounds as if there may have been help in turning their focus to Hatfill.”
This makes most sense to me if the purpose of the whole investigation was to find a scapegoat, nail him, and close the case to “resolve” the issue while concealing the co-conspirators. All they needed was one “guilty” person.
Oh, am I wearing my tinfoil hat again?
Bob in HI
No mention of a blood alcohol level because we don’t have any verification that an autopsy was done, much less the results if there was. Surely, surely, surely this is a situation where an autopsy would be mandatory.
Brother Tom was cold all the way through, and was completely out of touch with Bruce Ivins, so as far as I’m concerned the less said about him the better.
Any family member who’d talk extensively to the press at this point wouldn’t be acting wisely. The people who need to answer questions are those running the investigation/prosecution, not the family.
Nell,
In a thread a while back, I referenced someone who said that an autopsy WAS done.
Right on, EW!
I’ve spent my day resuscitating my DFH ‘88 Toyota Van in order to get it to the local red-neck auto repairman so that he can hopefully breath new life into it. Or at least get it running well enough to be smogged. Thus have missed out on much that is going on here today. Trying to catch up.
Thank you everyone!!
Washing.
Washing.
Washing.
Drying.
Coating. In a nano-thick coat evenly applied, at least as I understood the comment left in another thread (which I can’t find, dammit).
In copious volumes (copious, in terms of this application, might be a handful or two).
Try it with fern or mushroom spores for practice, see if you can do it at home in a few handfuls of hours by yourself.
Ri-i-ight.
I’d feel a lot better if scientists weren’t as suspicious as I am.
If they had a case, why did FBI need the incredible Duley?
“He was troubled” is not a motive. I’m troubled, too, watching this lynching.
That is very wise advice. Unfortunately, most people are not media-savvy, especially when they’ve just been ambushed by something in their personal lives, so they say and do things that probably aren’t wise.
I’m not disagreeing with you, just reporting observations of too many sad situations over time.
No, it was only a blood test.
Did anyone ask the FBI about the previously reported polyglass coating for the spores and how Ivins could have pulled that off?
The spores were not coated. That’s a misconception that started early and apparently won’t die.
It only looks like a spike in the cropped window FBI provides. Maybe he did that every month. What was he working on? We don’t know.
I saw that, but no one has verified it, and who will have access to the results?
There was no coating.
Wash your mind of the idea of a coating.
There was no polyglass coating. No scientist who ever examined the spores reported a coating, polyglass or otherwise.
You won’t get any argument from me that Tom Ivins seems to be a hateful, old man. And I recognize that he could very well have been shooting from the hip.
But saying that his brother got involved with the wrong people seems to be an effort to reduce his brother’s guilt. Why bother saying it? And you are right, how would he know this if he hadn’t talked to his brother in so many years? Unless, of course, he based it on his conversation with the FBI.
Rude, ignorant people can still sometimes be useful sources of information.
Anyway, the subject has become a distraction, so it’s probably best dropped.
A couple points to make:
Given the government’s Ivins document dump (and only of those things which were derogatory and/or implied something negative about Ivins), wouldn’t it be most interesting if the government had also produced, side by side, their documentation on Hatfill?
I would imagine that the government has as much derogatory information on Dr. Hatfill because, after all, he was their primary suspect for over 5 fookin’ years!
And I imagine that if one were to view both the government information on Hatfill alongside Ivins, one might be inclined to see a whole lot of suspicious stuff.
I wonder what a jury would think if they were presented with all the derogatory information against both Ivins and Hatfill. Would they be able to pick one over the other? Would they then be able to convict either?
Something tells me that they’d have one hell of a time concluding “beyond a reasonable doubt” that either Ivins or Hatfill was responsible.
Another point:
If we were able to see the files on both Ivins and Hatfill side by side, would we be able to pick out the “turning point” and time when the government decided that Hatfill wasn’t the perp, and that Ivins was?
Do you think it might be of value to the public that the government explains just what that “turning point” was? Was there even a “turning point”?
Lastly, I wonder how many other “suspects” the government focused on. Do you think that there may be a ton of circumstantial evidence against a whole raft of folks, but the government decided/pinned a tail on the donkey/picked the short straw and Ivins won?
Just a few thoughts. Nothing to see here folks. Move along. Your government knows best.
Here are two of your [Mary’s] bullet points, which deal with Ivins’s activities around 9/11/01:
Note that both involve activities of interest just prior to 9/11/01. Break out the tinfoil.
I thought it was that Deterick was the only one of the labs on their list that was in the same area where those envelopes were available — not the same thing at all. Other labs, perhaps still secret, or other individuals might have been located in some other area where the envelopes were available. And besides, the perp(s) could have travelled from anywhere in the world to Frederick to buy the envelopes there, just to incriminate the Detrick facility.
Yeah, like somebody who could pull this off would be unable to get on an airplane and fly to the East Coast.
43
…because of what happened last spring…
IIRC, Ivins had some kind of health problem around that time that he attributed to the vaccine. He could be referring to that.
One of the articles I linked to last night — can’t recall which one — said that the security cams in the Detrick labs were turned off during late-night FBI inspections, and this happened on many occasions. Red flag. Why couldn’t evidence have been planted, i.e. were spores of different strains introduced into Detrick beakers to incriminate first Hatfill and/or later Ivins?
Why would you want to “shake” the Israeli Spy Story?
It is THE story.
The glue that runs throughout.
http://plungerspeaks.blogspot.com
I don’t do chemistry, certainly not biochem. Could there have been unexpected interactions between the anthrax vaccine and the psychoactives that Ivins was later prescribed?
I can’t see how this guy kept (or even got in the first place) a high level security clearance. When you get a full blown background investigation, you have to fill out a bundle of forms about your life, including your mental health background. Either he lied or the clearance investigators didn’t dig very deep.
Any details available in a link somewhere on that blood test? I assume that means no tissue or other samples taken. Blood/tox panel including details of what tested for (it can really vary & yes, I know, probably no info available on this).
Despite the vaccinations, a full autopsy should have been performed to rule out pathogen related death from lab leakage or contamination (slow or otherwise) in a death from other than natural causes.
DOJ & FBI in a dead heat as to which looked more “D” ring in today’s presser.
Over what period of time was he being medicated, and how do any of us know what they ACTUALLY put in his prescriptions?
We are dealing with the most skilled, cunning and ruthless organization in the world.
If they wanted to make him crazy using medication, they did.
Follow the money.
Conspiracy Flashback to the Ford Administration - and look who is running the ANTHRAX coverup…
http://www.frankolsonproject.o.....choke.html
The conspiracy originated at the top, in the White House, initiated by Donald Rumsfeld and Richard Cheney. It had just been learned that the CIA allegedly drugged its employee Frank Olson with LSD before his supposed suicide.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200403/mann
The Armageddon Plan
During the Reagan era Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld were key players in a clandestine program designed to set aside the legal lines of succession and immediately install a new “President” in the event that a nuclear attack killed the country’s leaders.
Here’s my evaluation of the case against Ivins:
It’s better than the case against Saddam ever was, but just barely.
Here are two questions I’ve got.
They’re arguing that Ivins’ late night time was used to make anthrax spores. They say he didn’t go back into B3 after the postmark of the second latter “until” October 9. He also goes back in for an extended period on October 14. What was he doing?
Also, in his email extracts, Ivins says on August 12, 2000, thta “Last Sunday, as you probably guessed for my email, was one of the worst days in months.” But they don’t include that email. Why not? If they’re trying to prove he’s crazy, wouldnt one of his self-described worst days be relevant?
That’s weird because 10/9 was the second postmark date. On 10/9 he could have been analyzing postmortem samples from Bob Stevens. On 10/14 he could have been analyzing samples from the Judy letter, or testing the Iraqi hypothesis.
Only two? Me, I still want to see the government’s case against Hatfill side by side with Ivins. I betcha they make both look guilty ’cause that’s the goal.
I’ve got a metallic taste in my mouth. It’s…it’s