Login HereAs I showed in this post, the claim that Iraq was responsible for the anthrax attack developed in two phases. First, after the first and less lethal round of attacks, Neocons spread the story that Iraq had supplied anthrax to Al Qaeda. Then, after the more lethal attacks associated with the letters to Daschle and Leahy, ABC News reported that Ft. Detrick scientists had found bentonite in the anthrax samples.
In comments, I suggested that it was possible the first round of accusations were just typical Neocon war-mongering, but that the second round was the culprit, playing on the Neocon attacks, inventing the bentonite claim as an alibi. In other words, after the attacks started killing people, the culprit may have spread the claim that the anthrax had to have come from Iraq as a way of throwing suspicion off him or his colleagues.
A couple of longer articles on Ivins make it clear that he was in a position to spread such disinformation. For example, the WaPo reports that Ivins was one of the scientists analyzing the anthrax for the FBI.
His expertise eventually earned him a front-row seat for the FBI's investigation, as he was called upon to help the bureau with its analysis of the wispy powder used in the attacks.
[snip]
After the anthrax mailings in October 2001, the Fort Detrick labs went into a frenetic response, testing suspicious mail and packages virtually round-the-clock. Ivins was part of a team that analyzed the handwritten letter sent to Daschle, packed with Bacillus anthracis spores that matched the primary strain used in Fort Detrick research.
Creepier still, the WaPo reports that Ivins volunteered for the Red Cross as it supported FBI agents investigating Stephen Hatfil.
In fact, in early June 2003, when the FBI drained a pond in rural Maryland in search of clues to the perpetrator of the anthrax attacks, Ivins was one of the Red Cross volunteers who brought investigators coffee and donuts. Investigators, however, singled him out and asked him to leave "because he was somebody involved in the investigation," said Byrne, Ivins's former colleague and fellow parishioner.
None of this, of course, means that Ivins was the killer--nor that he acted alone. The WaPo also reports, for example, that Ivins' work was supportive of those opposed to mandatory anthrax vaccination--which would seem to refute his claimed motive (to make money--as this LAT article explains, expanding on stuff JimWhite noted yesterday).
Ezzell said the experiments did not involve anthrax in its dried form, the type found in the letter to then-Senate Majority Leader Thomas A. Daschle (D-S.D.) that was so finely ground it could immediately become airborne. Ivins worked with small teams of scientists; their findings had global significance in the field of anthrax studies and were later used by opponents of a mandatory vaccination program instituted by the Pentagon that has been highly controversial.
Meryl Nass, a physician and leader in the vaccine opposition movement, met Ivins at a conference in the early 1990s, and they talked regularly over the next decade. She said Ivins told her he had a chronic blood disorder and feared that it might be linked to the anthrax vaccine booster shots he had to take to work in the Fort Detrick laboratory.
"He had some issues with work," Nass said in an interview.
Also, I'm still dubious about the claims Ivins' analyst made--because she claims he has homicidal tendencies going back years, which none of the people interviewed about Ivins seem to have noticed.
In court records, filed after Dr. Ivins discussed his plans to kill his co-workers, a social worker who led the sessions, Jean Duley, said that Dr. Ivins’s psychiatrist had “called him homicidal, sociopathic with clear intentions.” She went on to say that the Federal Bureau of Investigation was looking at Dr. Ivins and that he would soon be charged with five murders — the same number of fatalities in the anthrax attacks.
“He is a revenge killer,” Ms. Duley told a Maryland District Court judge in Frederick as she sought a restraining order against Dr. Ivins. “When he feels that he has been slighted, and especially towards women, he plots and actually tries to carry out revenge killings.”
And it's not like the anthrax killings were revenge killings (nor did they target women). I'm also curious about what led Ivins to lose consciousness earlier this spring. Suicide attempt? Stress? A blow to the head? It could be anything.
The LAT suggests that DOJ is going to release investigative documents, which I guess may clarify things somewhat.
If the investigation is declared over, the department will seek a court order releasing investigative documents in the case that have been under court seal, the officials said. They declined to be identified because they were not authorized to discuss the investigation publicly.
"We anticipate being able to provide additional details in the near future," the Justice Department statement said. Officials indicated in the statement that they wanted to update victims of the attacks about the investigation before making further details public.
Until then, it sure seems that Ivins was in a position to inject disinformation into the investigation.
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Good questions all. I look forward to the Justice Department releasing these documents, and I look forward to finding out why McCain “knew” Iraq was involved so early on.
I’m wondering why we have scientists working on weapons grade anthrax (or any other chemical or biological weapons) at all. Thought that was the stuff of which wars were waged.
I can see no reason to associate anybody but government leakers to the bentonite story. Even the timing suggests the more likely motivation is to rig a war with Iraq.
It would be comforting to lay off the Bentonite leaks on Ivins, but it is a leap where none is necessary. The neocons have motive, ample opportunity, and a track record for just such manipulations.
I expect to see an awful lot of “Ivins did it ALL!” crap as a way to forestall congressional investigations into WHO ELSE may have been involved, either by collusion or by way of media manipulation. I think we don’t really need to forward that goal by continuing to lay as much off on Ivins as possible.
That is not to say that Ivins DIDN’T start the Bentonite leaks, but since the FBI, the Neocons, and everybody else with a motivation to bury this stuff WILL be shouting exactly that, I doubt they need any help.
I think both are still possible–though think of it this way: if someone in Ft. Detrick DIDN’T make the bentonite claim, don’t you think there would have been pushback?
I actually think it possible, though, that Ivins told the FBI he found bentonite in the Daschle sample (note they specify which sample he worked with–which may mean they were able to track the bentonite claim to him), and that the FBI passed on taht incorrect information unknowingly. Brian Ross has a lot of FBI sources, by all appearances, but if the FBI genuinely thought the bentonite thing was true, I can understand Ross not wanting to expose sources like that.
The supposed reason is that these things must be studied as a way to prevent attacks with these pathogens, and it is a VERY good reason. Unfortunately we can’t trust our government to do only defensive research, without also secretly hatching plans for “limited” offensive use.
Anthrax is one of the hardest pathogens to adapt to offensive use on a large scale.
IF Ivins did send the letters, it seems to me that he would have been testing Anthrax as an assassination weapon. Leahy was, if I am correct, probably the specific target for this “test” witht he mailroom deaths and Stevens in Boca being collateral damage.
I doubt very much the FBI ever thought the bentonite story was true. I also think it is likely that it DID originate at Detrick, as that was where the lions share of the testing was taking place, and CDC (where a lot of the brainstorming was going on) is just riddled with ethical civilian doctors who would have looked unkindly at the dissemination of bullshit. I am just uncertain it serves the purpose of a lone whackjob scientist mass murderer to be making easily disproven statements about a sample he himself handled.
Via the LATimes:
Well isn’t this the basic philosophy behind the “Shock Doctrine”? Whether the problem just “occurred” randomly or not is not as important as what bushco did to exploit the problem. It is safer to focus on what they did in response to the problem, how they exploited because that seems easier to prove to the public. Maybe they caused it, maybe they let it happen, maybe they planted the idea, or maybe a nut job who was a bushco “believer” took it upon himself to make the threat real. Regardless, our gov’t exploited the situation and spread “propaganda” to lead us into a war, based on a lie. PERIOD.
The complete lack of recollection in the MSM of the uses to
which the anthrax attacks were put in the
run-up to the war is yet another sign of the decay
of what should be a check on government abuses.
No, wait, look, over there, it’s a troll.
Or a race-baiting black senator.
Based on the FBI’s apparent claims, Ivins was able to do that for years, so doing it “at the end” would be no different.
I remain troubled by Duley’s unprofessional-appearing notes, including misspellings of professional trade words. Presumably, these were rushed — in light of Ivins’ apparent threats — so that they could be completed in time to submit to the court. (Most of us now are far faster on a computer than handwritten notes. But I understand mental health therapists’ stereotypic reluctance even to use digital media or admit to the existence of notes that may be discoverable in legal proceedings.)
The Times article EW links to describes Ms. Duley referring to Ivins’ “homicidal threats” dating back decades and her claim that Ivins was “a revenge killer”. I guess that was some last group session for her diagnosis to be so sudden and complete. (Or else why no action based on data from earlier sessions?)
The Times’ also quotes Ms. Duley referring to comments obtained from Dr. Ivins’ “psychiatrist”, alleging that s/he “had ‘called him homicidal, sociopathic with clear intentions.’” Presumably, Ms. Duley obtained that from the psychiatrist after Ivins’ last group session and before filing her statement in court. Which begs the question that if Ivins’ state of mind was such a clear and present danger to himself and/or others, why his psychiatrist did not report the matter sooner. More information would be useful to help sort out a troubling and far from complete story.
I can’t forget those two “random” women who died from receiving/opening contaminated envelopes- Kathy Nguyen & Ottilie Lundgren. Still recall my shock @ these two senseless deaths, AWA as the postal workers:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/76357
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/H.....index.html
Serious consideration should be given to how a whackjob homicidal scientist gets and keeps a security clearance that allows him to work with bioterrorism agents.
Where’s the coverage of Ivins’ motives? Did he materially benefit from the scare/war he promoted? Who did he work with, and why didn’t they notice or suspect him? Was he in contact with any of the war promoters in other branches of the government?
Compare the media’s frenzy over a “shoe bomber” and the 24/7 coverage of a speculative and flawed terrorist plot to the coverage of this person, who is alleged to have killed five and materially contributed to starting an immoral and catastrophic war. What gives? When the fourth estate begins to do its job, I’ll stop being suspicious that this is a convenient “David Kelly” style fictional ending.
This is probably more appropriate for the previous thread, but Cheney’s remarks on the NewsHour on October 12, 2001 are informative.
Lehrer opens with a reference to an announcement from the FBI the previous day heightening the threat of terrorist attack. In his response to that, Cheney says
So, on October 12, Cheney has the opportunity to blame Iraq, but keeps the blame on al Qaeda. However, he does have another interesting agenda that he gets to next. After Lehrer helps Cheney to inflame panic over potential anthrax contaminated mail, he then asks what citizens can do. Cheney’s response is very telling:
Cheney’s goal in this interview appears to be to drum up support for the Patriot Act. He is relying specifically on the panic over anthrax to get citizens to call up their legislators and urge them to sacrifice our liberties so that the government can go after these evil-doers. That does fit the observation above that this comes off as a classic shock doctrine play.
It looks like the idea of blaming this on Iraq came to them a couple of days later.
One other reason that Rush Holt might be interested
From wiki
Princeton is in Holt’s district.
And then there are things that make you go hmmm…
Who were the letters mailed to? and why them?
Kinda wonder if . . . maybe Cheney was low on shotgun shells?
…senseless deaths. Ah, yes, But Americans are very tolerant of their own homegrown terrorists, right wing religious extremists nutjobs who bomb abortion clinics or churches and gun toting crazies who like to show off their arsenal while they take out a school or a shopping center. Lots of senseless deaths, but we sigh and move on.
Now, foreign terrorists or the threat of foreign terrorists demand that we suspend all reason, surrender our civil rights, and embrace a dictator who drained our treasury while on a war crimes binge. It is truly senseless.
David Kelley, Deborah Jeane Palfrey, Ivins… Have I left anyone off the convenient suicides list, as it currently stands?
Another question: If Ivins was a sociopathic, homicidal maniac, with clear intentions toward women, why does it appear that his marriage was stable and long-term?
Ross is, in this instance, plainly giving material support to MURDERERS, however it plays out. Either solo whackjob scientists or a test op gone bad or a concerted plan to gin up a war that cost untold lives, makes very little difference. At the very minimum he is protecting witless dupes used to forward the plans of murderers, or he is protecting intentional liars supporting murderers, or at worst, obstructing public understanding of the murders of countless thousands.
THIS is why a shield law that does not specifically exclude perveyors of false information, non-conscience government leakers, authorized government leakers and many other categories of press manipulators would do more harm than good. I don’t see a possible shield law formulation that will prevent media manipulation by the powerful while allowing conscience-based whistleblower protections. I would just LOVE to be proven wrong on that point.
I find it hard to reconcile his private life personna where his neighbors (who knew him for may years) provided a positive testimonial versus the altogether different picture painted by a social worker/psychiatrist. I have no idea how the FBI focus on him may have started to impact his mental well being. Or how his job suspension and pending indictment may have changed his personality. But I know there is a government/administration motive to wrap this up now and Ivin’s suicide couldn’t have benefited this administration more, in terms of never actually having to litigate this case for the public record.
It amazes me how things always work out for the best interests of this administration.
I did not know mental health workers could obtain a court protective orders from their patients but I suppose the relationship amounts to a relationship. I just thought it had to be more familiar relationship like spouse or significant other.
Jean Duley was specifically in fear of Ivans for what he might do to her. She cited threats & actions toward therapists. By doing so, she may have met all the specific requirements to get an order. So maybe its best not to lean too heavily on her statement as an indicator of Ivins (alleged) psychological issues. (I’ll explain, Snooks (Rockefeller) Boss, was abducted by her father. The BPD announced that there was no history of abuse but the she was in danger. The later part of the framing is a requisite for an Amber Alert, the former keeps the BPD out of court from a libel suit.) The way Duley described the specific threat may be what she needed for a protective order. I’m not saying she did not perceive a real threat. I’m just saying she was motivated to frame it in a way that she would get it, which may not be the most accurate representation of his (alleged) mental health issue.
But which is it, Ivins a homicidal, sociopath, since graduate school or was he just a danger to his therapists or none of the above? If he has a criminal record, it will come out. If he does not, then you have to wonder about this homicidal, sociopathic diagnosis, and mostly why he was in a position to handle bio-hazards as an employee of the Federal government.
“Crazy” people do crazy things, that the rest of us would never act on, and so crazy, homicidal, sociopath, is also an answer to the question, Why would he do it? I’m suspicious of diagnosis that explain, why did he do it, so neatly and without examination of discernible facts.
It is Irwin who wrote about Ivins as a threat to the general population “homicidal, sociopathic, with clear intentions.” You have to wonder what Ivins said the Irwin, and what other observations Irwin made in coming to his conclusions about Ivins.
That said, does Ivans live with his sociopathic impulses for decades before he acts? If he was homicidal, we might expect to see a record of more homicide in his life. It could be there but there is no evidence of it yet.
Another loose end that’s never been satisfactorily answered. Why was Cipro prescribed to personnel in the WH, right after 9/11 and weeks before the attacks actually occurred? From what I’ve read, it is not recommended as a preventative measure, it’s only proscribed once an infection has been diagnosed.
When and if the FBI releases info, a timeline for the later portion of this investigation might be in order. Humbly submitted for inclusion is this April 2007 FBI research report submitted to the Croatian (huh?) Medical Journal.
How does the Trenton mailbox fit in?
This case kind of reminds me of the speed in which the 9/11 case was solved. The FBI/CIA were unable to apprehend these people before the events, but they had the whole case solved within 24 hours of the attack. Here, we have Ivins, who apparently was under the FBI radar for 6 years, but as soon as he dies, we find out he’s the guy and they already have the psychiatric testimonials released to corroborate it the conclusion. Case closed…next?
Where does Ivins’ wife and children fit into this picture? Why was he left alone if he was displaying suicidal tendencies?
“When he feels that he has been slighted, and especially towards women, he plots and actually tries to carry out revenge killings.”
That sort of sounds like she’s saying he actually tried to kill someone, but not citing the anthrax killings specifically. Like he’s a serial killer. Maybe they have a bunch of other evidence on him not linked to the anthrax deaths.
Because Cipro is the frontline antibiotic for almost every pathogen that can be used in biological attacks, and because white house paranoid persecution-complex ridden neocons with an inflated sense of self-importance needed a magic pill to ward of the evil demons that were attempting to devastate their imperial neofascist lifestyles. Nevermind that using Cipro prophylactically is a stupid, counterproductive medical procedure, nevermind that it lowered the already insufficient stockpile of this vital drug, nevermind that there was no real threat.
Unfortunately, as much as I would love to say that this is evidence of foreknowledge of the attack, simple stupidity and rampant paranoia suffice.
Since Porter Goss was in the news last week and I recalled that there had been a suicide of one of his staff so I googled “Porter Goss and “suicide.” Came up with more than one. Maybe just a coincidence but folks are discussing suspicious suicides. I feel safer now that the lone homicidal sociopath working for government committed suicide? That and the firing commanding officers who allowed the nuclear bombs to be flown across country to Louisiana makes me feel safer everyday. Also Pete Williams (cheney’s former aide) is saying the case is closed - so nothing to worry about.
My understanding of her degree was that she had a two year degree, and then was a licensed drug and alcohol counselor. Am I mistaken??
My regards to the many wonderful drug and alcohol counselors out there, however, the licensure for this is different than a master’s degree. I do not see that she has an M.S but a B.S and a license for drug and alcohol counseling.
Again…suspicious stuff because this means he must have had drug and alcohol problems which would/should have affected his clearance. If he was referred, my experience says he would have been on a leave of absence.
Also…call me crazy, but if we get a scientist, someone with lots of education or smarts…those folks are referred to our most seasoned therapists or a ph.d. We recognize that intelligence, I.Q can be a confounding factor in treatment. Yes?
CNN reporting that his former attorney is saying he absolutely was not the killer.
Maybe the whole story is false and this little tid bit was put in to get us all to support the fabricated story. I’d like to know more about this woman. Who is she? Does she have any ties to the Bush people? She said she had been treating him for 6 mos. How did he end up with her? When he was found unconcious could he have been injected with something that made him seem crazy and other people took him to see her? There are so many what if’s in this story and knowing that the Bush administration is willing to do anything to cover their tracks you just gotta wonder about all the possible scenarios. What we know so far just doesn’t make any sense.
That does not sound like a professional note to me. He has fantasy’s of revenge? There should be notes that ask if he had a plan, what was his plan and then there should be attempts to inform those he plotted against. A duty to warn would have been in order. The way that is worded seems judgmental and without understanding of mental illness.
These notes just don’t sound like the way we do business at my office. I work in trauma, domestic violence and treatment of violent men and women.
Are there notes that someone was warned. Who exactly were his “targets” should have been asked by the therapist. Along with the plan.
I understand your point, but I find it hard to believe that the medical resources available to POTUS would be counseling them to start an anti-biotic regimen absent of an actual infection. Perhaps the ill informed or paranoid demanded medication and over-rode the advice of the medical staff…but that was not how I recall it as being reported.
“Duley was identified in a June 29 article in the Frederick newspaper as a program director for Comprehensive Counseling Associates, a local mental-health counseling center. A woman who answered the phone at the center said Duley no longer worked there.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/.....refer=home
I wonder how long she worked there and where she worked before she came there?
In Glenn Greewald’s piece on this, he notes that Ivins wrote various letters to the editor, which Glenn describes thusly: “Though the underlying ideology is a bit difficult to discern, he seems clearly driven by a belief in the need for Christian doctrine to govern our laws and political institutions, with a particular interest in Catholic dogma.”
Glenn links to an archive of these letters at the Frederick News-Post on this, but here’s snip from one of the letters that Glenn quotes:
This, to me, sounds like someone who strongly supports the Roman Catholic church’s opposition to anything that goes against what JP II called “the Culture of Life.”
It also sounds to me like someone who is not terribly disposed toward suicide as a means of solving their own problems.
cheneys words from your post >>Every day that goes by when we don’t have all the tools we think we need to find out who these people are and to run them to ground is one more day when we could conceivably suffer the consequences of undue delay. Call your congressman and senator, tell them….
i hope cheneys isolated words here are adhered to, but from the opposite side of the aisle he is in… man o man, we need to find out who these people are in this admin that willingly led/lied the usa into war and not delay….
#13
I’m pretty much where you are on this. This is the same administration willing to lie about a casus belli to invade and occupy a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. Since then, we’ve seen a massive transfer of wealth to a bunch of corrupt people and corporations. People have been murdered for the contents of their wallet…what would a bunch of sociopaths be willing to do to grab hundreds of billions?
I’ll be following this case with interest…and I really want to know more about this social worker/psychiatrist angle. If this story starts to fall apart, it’s going to put a whole new light on the anthrax attacks.
My big question is if the therapy was voluntary or mandated. There are references to him being “committed” for depression. By whom? Many patients are extremely hostile to therapists if they’re not there by choice. Add in the fact that you had a brilliant man being treated by someone not nearly as smart as him. He could have been furious for reasons having nothing to do with being a killer, and, yeah, it does make me want to know more.
If he was a danger to other therapists there should be multiple protection orders. “Revenge killer” is not a diagnosis. And would more likely be called other things. There should be multiple diagnosis with this if he had such a long psych history. Some of my patients have many diagnosis before they are found to be sociopath or psychopathic. Psychopathy is very rare and affects only 2 or 3% of the population. If he was anti social or sociopath there would be other corroborating evidence in his behavior.
Psychopaths are rare…and can fool people, do fool people, and are very difficult to discern. In fact most psychiatrists miss the diagnosis without psych testing, corroborating evidence and actual reports of specific behaviors. It doesn’t make sense. There should be a big history of information in order to make this dx.
And if there were a big history, how does he maintain his clearance over the years?
Crap! From that same article:
That just stinks! Can Holt or Leahy force an autopsy?
The inconsistencies multiply, don’t they, the more we learn.
Ivins’ apparently warm relationship with spouse and children, yet his claimed fixation on and “hatred” of women.
The conclusion that he has the “present intent and capability” to carry out “revenge killings”, presumably based on one/more group therapy session. The as yet undisclosed psychiatrist who seems to have given Duley information and diagnoses from Ivins’ private sessions — damning diagnoses — but which apparently were not sufficient to motivate the psychiatrist to take action.
Whatever Ivins disclosed in private or group therapy sessions, it apparently was insufficient to trigger taking action until he threatened his co-workers. That seems an inadequate standard given the special circumstances of Ivins’ work with bio-weapons. Like being worried about locking away a handgun while ignoring the finger on the nuclear button.
Is that description itself adequate, or were there other reasons why no action was taken earlier? Ivins didn’t really exhibit the claimed behavior, intent or capability? Were they there but negligently ignored? Were those in the know prevented from taken action for “national security” or other reasons?
Given the murders resulting from the original anthrax scare, the war they helped wrongly facilitate, and the potential for further harm if Ivins, apparently like Hatfill, is the wrong man — and the right one(s) remain loose — this is a story that needs more work and public disclosure. Will we get it?
There seems to be an abundant supply of nutjobs working in biodefense on which to pin this crime. Remember that Hatfill had links to paramilitaries and other seedy groups. It’s worth asking again, how do these people get these jobs? I work for the feds in a totally non-sensitive job and had to have a background check — even my secretaries get checked out, fergodsakes. If Ivins had a known history of threatening to kill therapists and/or women, and Hatfill liked to play Nazi stormtrooper, how did either get put in those positions? Or were they conveniently placed so they could take falls when needed?
It also sounds to me like someone who is not terribly disposed toward suicide as a means of solving their own problems.
Nor a person willing to send anthrax out and kill a bunch of innocent people. If he is as religious as his LTTE and neighbor testimonials have portrayed him, this does not fit the MO of a RW lunatic. I suppose he could have had schizophrenic tendencies…but you’d think someone close to him would be speaking out and corroborating the official story on Mr. Ivins.
Yes. With great respect to all the good therapists and counsellors present, and I know there are many, that is my first reaction to the therapist puzzle too.
And why were people like Richard Cohen advised to take it?
It is interesting to just simply note that Bushco has an extensive pattern of either creating or invoking frightening scenarios in order to get public support in order to actualize their agenda. So far they have been extremely successful.
9/11 - Afghanistan and everything else since then…
Anthrax - Patriot Act
Downing Street memo - fixing the facts
WMDs - Iraq and Iran
Bush plan to paint fake UN airplanes to provoke war with Iraq
Cheney’s Borat speedboat plans to provoke war with Iran
Off shore drilling - they’re workin’ on it
FISA - immunity
and on and on and on…
What’s next???
If he was schizophrenic, or had tendencies, those should be noted. Paranoia would be fairly easy to spot. Hostile attribution bias is easy to spot. Delusions would be noted. But what we have says nothing of delusions.(maybe there is more in the notes, of course) The language (released) suggests something more damning(more judgmental almost lacking a medical model perspective).
Yeah, where is the diagnosis?
And autopsy? Maybe he had a brain tumor? You’d think they would want to know.
Totally agree that an involuntary patient would create a different scenario and could result in threats. However, again, how does he maintain a security clearance if he was in the past referred to treatment, committed involuntarily? And of course threats from an involuntary patient often resolve through the course of treatment.
In our state, our licensure records can be accessed publically. Can someone look up her license to see if she is legit? There should be public record of her licensure.
Related in a twisted way… if McCain know how to get bin Laden as he claims, yet he’s not telling people in a position to get him, isn’t that criminal? How can you say you know how to catch someone accused of killing 3,000 people and not do it?
Coming out of strict Canuck/old country Irish Catholic background here- the idea that Ivins would condemn himself in the afterlife by ending his earthly life doesn’t fit what’s currently known @ all, IMO.
Only, & a big perhaps, if he felt he was already condemned for some reason, & his suicide served a purpose to others/a cause/??? in some way.
2 cents.
We are left to believe that homicidal sociopath was his official diagnosis. I am telling you, that’s a strange dx.
I have worked with several violent men who have threatened suicide homicide on their families. They don’t come to therapy with the threat out front. And if someone is homicidal they have to sign contracts stating that they will not act on their plan and are not released until there is an assertion from the patient that they will not act on their plan. Whenever there is a threat to co-workers there would be a duty to warn. Were they warned?? If not, why not?
If he had admitted in sessions that he committed the crimes, the therapist would have a duty to inform. (in an ongoing investigation of murder which has no statue of limitations)
tastey!
That’s what it kind of boils down to, huh?
Either he didn’t have the history going back to his grad school days, in which case this last minute counselor business stinks to high heaven.
Or he did, and you wonder why and how he kept his clearance.
Though I would say this: Stephen Hatfill may not have been the anthrax killer. But he lied on his resume and had a history of working with right wing death squads in Africa. And he had clearance for Ft. Detrick, as well.
Oops. Our comments crossed–but yeah.
Is it possible he admitted to his psych?? And that’s how they figured out the case?
That doesn’t fit this. If he admitted it, it’s hard to imagine a scenario where he would admit the killings and be allowed to make continuous threats. (perpetuating the need for the p.o) They would have been able to pick him up immediately and should have done so. If the doc didn’t believe him than it would have been considered a delusion and a dx of some sort of psychosis would have needed to be ruled out?? (and would have been part of an earlier dx) (which would have made the claim that he did it seem more questionable)
Maybe he did admit it…they were prepared to charge him with the 5 murders and seeking the death penalty, they must have proof…so…why didn’t they arrest him when they told him they were going to charge him? Why leave a murderer of 5 people on the loose? Why was he at home?
Here’s a question.
In a story on this earlier this year (about the time Ivins began to have his noticeable phsychological issues), Fox reported that Ivins’ colleagues were talking among themselves about the fact that the anthrax the FBI was tracing matched that of one of their colleagues.
If you’re Ivins, how do you respond to this?
Sorry–here’s the link.
The “therapy trail” here is overgrown and hard to follow.
If Ivins had his own psychiatrist, Duley ought to have been a tangential player, brought in to deal with a single aspect of his treatment — claimed abuse of alcohol or drugs as a self-destructive response to other stress.
As you say, if there was a recognition that such treatment was necessary, it should have set off alarm bells in light of the history of the anthrax murders in 2001, Ivins’ prior involvement in them as investigator or suspect, and his continuing access to bio-weapons. His security clearance should have been put under review and his access to bio-weapons suspended pending a successful outcome of that treatment. “Ordinary” executives cause billions of dollars per year in losses because of alcohol and drug abuse. And they only handle paper clips, computers and cars, not bio-weapons.
I also understand, as do you, that high IQ “confounds” mental health therapy. Those with it are capable of manipulating the therapist and the therapeutic process to defend against the perceived vulnerabilities the therapy might expose. For someone like Ivins’, whose work depended on maintaining his clearance, those risks included immediate loss of job, status or certain responsibilities, regardless of his underlying issues or their therapeutic outcome. Ivins could have been too bright and successful a manipulator for the average psychiatrist, psychologist or MSW. So Duley’s now public role is a minor mystery, not one of the keys to the puzzle.
Who else was involved, what did they know, and should they have acted sooner, if in fact, Ivins demonstrated an “intent and capability” to harm himself and/or others?
Maybe in the course of Hatfill’s settlement, he told them something that he knows that got them to settle…then right after that settlement, they go after Ivins…the timing is so weird…including Leahy asking about it publicly so recently to Mukasey.
?
Just as a reminder, they settled with Hatfill in June. They had to do that before they could charge Ivins.
Do you mean the language used is more like the kind of emotive language a propagandist would use, not the language a trained therapist would use (even one whose principal duties are administrative)?
Tinfoil, perhaps, but that seems an enduringly useful style of headgear for use with the Rovian minds that both run this administration and attempt to keep its main players out of prison.
Agreed that Hatfill could have qualified for a dx or two, but I would have pegged him as narcissistic, (a personality disorder as opposed to a an axis I or organic dx - he was crazy like a fox-pretty damn affective in fending off the gov’t wouldn’t you say?). Some surgeons for instance, meet criteria for sociopath on the mmpi, however, most surgeons lead lawful lives and save folks. (police officers have a higher than average number of sociopaths in their ranks as well) Being sociopath doesn’t rule out other mental health diagnosis and rarely is given alone because there are usually other problems present that lead them to help, even involuntarily. (domestic violence, substance abuse, DWI charges, Employee assistance referrals)
For instance, if I were rating Ivins’ global functioning, the fact that he has a p.o against him and possible substance abuse, would put his global functioning score fairly low for such a bright guy. It seems this would have correlated with other problems in functioning. (unless of course the charges were bunk). The problems that Ivin’s is being pegged with suggest that he was struggling to function. Were their other signs of this that would corroborate and if so, it would suggest that he might not be “just” a sociopath, but that he might have other disorders impeding his functioning. (at the very least paranoia or depression or bi-polar-but those words aren’t in the release of information.) If he had other symptoms than it would confuse the issue. Did he really do it, or just think he did it? Was he delusional? (and the gov’t said…yep, lets peg him because he thinks he did it? and therefore no mention of other symptoms or medical dx is released?) It’s interesting that this info is left out.
Being a sociopath doesn’t usually require treatment unless there are other things going on.
All I know is that if he had substance abuse issues, there should be a c.d dx, not just sociopath. AND many folks who are not in recovery, who are active in addiction test as sociopath because of the chemical dependency).
I don’t know this is making my head go in circles.
Whereas Hatfill seemed to have a very high level of functioning. (until his false charges)
““Then he said he had to look at a lot of samples that the FBI had prepared … to duplicate the letter material,” the e-mail reads. “Then the bombshell. He said that the best duplication of the material was the stuff made by [name redacted]. He said that it was almost exactly the same … his knees got shaky and he sputtered, ‘But I told the General we didn’t make spore powder!’”
Okay…this sounds weird to me…the FBI prepared duplicate material…and the scientist says that the best “duplication” material was made by redacted. They are saying that the duplicated material from the FBI most closely matches that of one of the duplicators that the FBI used to duplicate the material. Who the hell is that? Who else makes anthrax?
Am I reading that wrong?
Who is the “General”? What kind of “General”?
Makes one ask whether we are populating our bio-weapons labs with today’s version of the proverbial Nazi rocket scientist? That is, are we ignoring prior moral corruption or criminal behavior because an otherwise brilliant mind can make tin cans fly to the moon or make untraceable or otherwise “desirable” bio-weapons?
Or are we saying that’s what it takes to be willing to design bio-weapons for use against our neighbors? For surely, the odds seem low that these black budget research facilities are focused solely on designing biological counter-measures.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but there was pushback on the bentonite claim — immediate, high-level, unambiguous pushback from the White House.
Why?
“Whereas Hatfill seemed to have a very high level of functioning. (until his false charges)”
But high level of functioning does not equal low security risk. My question is, how can people who have fairly easily discoverable issues in their histories that should raise questions as to security risks be employed in government bioweapons programs? As usual with this kind of enigma, you get to choose between incompetence and evil as explanations…
IIRC, there was an elderly woman in New England who mysteriously died of anthrax a few months after the initial attacks.
Okay.. I thought of a scenario. I’ll bet they were all asked to undergo psychiatric evaluation as part of the investigation. That would make sense to me. It would also make sense that any one of them could have developed some intense rage at the process. However, why they would have them seeing someone like this therapist the degree she had, doesn’t make sense.
They went back and got of powder made in past batches and matched them to the attack sample and one of the batches made by (perhaps Ivin’s) matched perfectly?
Then I am guessing they might have all been referred for psychological evals. And maybe in the testing it comes out that he meets criteria for sociopath per MMPI scores. Hmmmm. I can see this. So them honing in could have put him over the edge? that could happen. But still why would he be seeing someone like her instead of the psychologist or psychiatrist who would have been far more equipped to elicit an admission or trip him up in his assertion of innocense??
assertion of innocense??
otherwise known as denial or rationalization.
We aren’t going to know I’m afraid who are how many people or if Ivins is the unsub or one of them, and what is certain is the bumbling, fumbling DOJ and FBI want to end this and truth is nearly always a stranger to DOJ.
From the portrait Marcy just sketched Ivins is beginning to look like one of the Criminal Minds unsubs who is a central part of the search misdirecting or guiding where he wants. I’m not sure how we’ll ever know because not only is Ivins now dead, but I wouldn’t trust any story from the FBI/DOJ as far as I could spit any of them.
DOJ is damaged goods for several generations at least OLC and anyone at Main Justice. Glenn Fine is a perfect example of a bumbling fool bumping into things in the closet and not having a clue where to put them or what to do with him. I don’t think there could be more of a wussie as an IG,
But I’ll say one thing for Mukasey and Mueller: They have learned how to say “Just Go Fuck Yourself” to the American people who are trying to get the latest Britney info down solid and watch the latest episode of Gosip Girl so telling the American people and Congress to just go fuck off works for them.
Look at the Bates opinion–even if they don’t say “just go fuck yourself” to the courts which has become a custom for the Bush administratigon–nothing can happen for as much as 90 days even if there is no motion for a Stay to the D.C. Circuit because either party has 60 routine days to appeal, and either party can ask for a delay to submit their appeal within 30 days AFTER that 60 as I cited in the FRAP.
Doing the math, 90 days from now for the first appellate brief to be submitted is November 2 two days before the election. That’s provided the government waits and asks for an extension which would start after the 90 day period if they strung it out and a stay could be granted for whatever time the D.C. Circuit wanted to.
Certainly Obama DOJ can take a different stance. The appeal of the Bates opinion would be in midbrief and Obama’s DOJ can withdraw the defense of Rove in concept although the instant case doesn’t have Rove directly (but as Marcy pointed out the opinion impacts him) and Miers and Bolten on a dime and stop arguing for their “privileges” on appeal–whatever they are calling those privileges these days.understand that Harvard Law Review was co-edited by Britney and Paris and Obama though.
Sounds about right.
McSame undersanding the litigation? Not so much. He does
Right, but the most likely explanation of her death is a random infection that was lethal only bc she was so old. The named targets were: Daschle, Leahy, and arguably the three (male) broadcast anchors.
To clarify November 2 is the length of time the government has to ask for an extention to file from Bates or actually the D.C. Citcuit to whom that extension could be appealed. And if an extension were granted, it wouldn’t start until the theoretical 90 days the government has to motion for it for however long ultimately the D.C. Circuilt would allow it if HJC appealed an extension the Bates could grant according to FRCivP.
And if the D.C. Circuit grants a stay, there’s still another obstacle. Given that an appeal were going on, the most you could expect is to see HARAT and Joshie the Bolten show up and claim a “fuck you HJC and Americans” privilege for any question if they even felt like showing up.
The clock is being run by your Democratic Congress who again haven’t the guts to actually do anything that will make a dent.
If the therapist one is postulating existed was working as an investigator to assist the FBI, rather than as Ivins’ counselor, that conflict is necessarily disclosed, no? From Ivins’ perspective, the interaction is inherently adverse, but cooperation becomes necessary to keep his security clearance or his job.
It still boggles the mind that someone with Duley’s experience became involved even if by Duley’s choice. Given his work, one would think no dysfunction, much less one leading to alcohol or drug abuse, with its attendant impaired judgment, would be deemed “minor”. One would also think that given the disclosures necessary in therapy, only therapists meeting certain criteria would be approved for use by government workers such as Ivins.
What are we left with? Intent? Negligence? Security glitch? All that insurance would pay for? Too many missing pieces.
Well, it would be considered unethical not to disclose a dual purpose. But such a disclosure ie “I am a therapist working with the FBI to find the anthrax killer and we have reason to suspect you so you are being asked to continue psyciatric evaluation and therapy to either clear your name or help us find the killer”, might cause some major push back by the guilty party.
This might contribute then to substance abuse problems. But it’s all guess work. She may have been an ancillary substance abuse counselor working with him specifically on c.d issues. If i am the case manager and I refer my super bright clients for ancillary c.d evals and treatment, I can’t much control how smart the ancillary treaters are. They report back to me and I help them “tolerate” the “inferior” treaters for what they can get out of the sessions (noting of course that smart people have the ability to glean MORE not less from any given experience : )
Anyway, it’s still interesting that he was one of ours. Not from Iraq. And that they made it seem as if Iraq were responsible. They exloited it, and even gave misinformation. This is by far, the most important part of the story.
Their are a million scenarios that might be true. (they tortured him, he went crazy and thinks he did it? or they had him prepare it for some other reason and then someone else sent it out in the mail? ie he was being set up and he knew it so he killed himself?)
But what we know for sure is interesting enough.
It’s also an ethics violation for psychologists to use their knowledge to develop torture. Big controversy in the APA about that, but lots of them did and do it anyway. Cripes.
IIRC, her letter was contaminated by one of the target letters at the mail distribution center. Given her age, it probably wouldn’t take much of an infection to do her in. Horrible, nonetheless.
How many therapists would misspell the word “therapist”? On the handwritten form it’s spelled “theripist”.
I am surprised that nobody has seen the obvious: Ivins probably thought he was going to the Castle Anthrax.
The truth, so we’re now told, is that one of our brightest American scientists went crazy and did the anthrax thingy on his own, killing his own fellow citizens.
Do I hear an admission that “we”, your government, failed you? That we got it wrong on this, too. It wasn’t a foreign terrorist, it wasn’t Saddam or al-Qaeda. It was our own guy. One of the guys we hire through special processes, and investigate thoroughly via the security clearance process. We failed to manage our own staff, failed to read the signals. We botched our investigation for years. (Do I hear the neocon chorus warming up? The one that blamed not guns but every Columbine parent and teacher for failing to read the “obvious” signs. Prolly not.)
It is interesting how the holes in Ivins’ story lead one to focus on Ivins and not those who lied and twisted apparently domestic criminal behavior into a “terrorist story” that blamed “Iraq/al-Qaeda”. Effective propaganda. Who’s responsible for it, to repeat EW’s question?