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	<title>Comments on: Senator Levin to Do Live Chat on Ongoing Senate Investigation into Detainee Abuse at 11 ET Tuesday</title>
	<atom:link href="http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/</link>
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		<title>By: Valtin</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/comment-page-1/#comment-86831</link>
		<dc:creator>Valtin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/#comment-86831</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;That only shows my ignorance of important areas of Ofshe’s work. I’m not familiar with his work on coerced confessions, and will get to it right away. Isn’t it always true that we ignore the resources or people in our own back yard? The issue of torture spins off in many directions: psychology, history of the Korean War, of biological weapons, MKULTRA, constitutional and international law, etc. etc.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That only shows my ignorance of important areas of Ofshe’s work. I’m not familiar with his work on coerced confessions, and will get to it right away. Isn’t it always true that we ignore the resources or people in our own back yard? The issue of torture spins off in many directions: psychology, history of the Korean War, of biological weapons, MKULTRA, constitutional and international law, etc. etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Leen</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/comment-page-1/#comment-86765</link>
		<dc:creator>Leen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/#comment-86765</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yes thank you to the FDL team&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes thank you to the FDL team</p>
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		<title>By: Leen</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/comment-page-1/#comment-86764</link>
		<dc:creator>Leen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/#comment-86764</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Exciting Senator Levin visiting.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Hope someone ask about Addingtons 3-5 trips to Gitmo.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Were outside contractors involved with the “enhanced techniques?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Just what branch of government does Senator Levin believe the Vice President operates out of?  Has he ever heard of the “barnacle branch”?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And Doug Feith this morning too.&lt;br /&gt;
Feith at 10:00&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.c-span.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.c-span.org/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Does he consider prisoners being naked naked?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exciting Senator Levin visiting.</p>
<p>Hope someone ask about Addingtons 3-5 trips to Gitmo.</p>
<p>Were outside contractors involved with the “enhanced techniques?</p>
<p>Just what branch of government does Senator Levin believe the Vice President operates out of?  Has he ever heard of the “barnacle branch”?</p>
<p>And Doug Feith this morning too.<br />
Feith at 10:00<br /><a href="http://www.c-span.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.c-span.org/</a></p>
<p>Does he consider prisoners being naked naked?</p>
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		<title>By: WilliamOckham</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/comment-page-1/#comment-86762</link>
		<dc:creator>WilliamOckham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/#comment-86762</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You are certainly correct about the Taylor column. This bit is especially offensive:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Pardons would not be favors to criminals. One can argue that officials could have or should have resigned rather than implement questionable legal judgments, but there is no evidence that any high-level official acted with criminal intent. The officials involved appear to have approved only interrogation methods found legal by administration lawyers, and in particular by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel (OLC). According to long tradition, the OLC is considered a sort of Supreme Court of the executive branch.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There is, of course, a mountain of evidence that the highest officials in the Administration acted with criminal intent. Taylor’s argument is literally a restatement of the “I was just following orders” defense.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are certainly correct about the Taylor column. This bit is especially offensive:</p>
<blockquote><p>Pardons would not be favors to criminals. One can argue that officials could have or should have resigned rather than implement questionable legal judgments, but there is no evidence that any high-level official acted with criminal intent. The officials involved appear to have approved only interrogation methods found legal by administration lawyers, and in particular by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel (OLC). According to long tradition, the OLC is considered a sort of Supreme Court of the executive branch.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>There is, of course, a mountain of evidence that the highest officials in the Administration acted with criminal intent. Taylor’s argument is literally a restatement of the “I was just following orders” defense.</p>
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		<title>By: JimWhite</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/comment-page-1/#comment-86755</link>
		<dc:creator>JimWhite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:47:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/#comment-86755</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for your kind remarks.  That column by Taylor really made my blood boil.  His insistence on pardons for torture is something that needs hard push-back on as many fronts as we can get.  I’m hoping that more prominent bloggers will take this on and make it a big issue.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;By the way, if you dig around on the ICC website, you will see that Moreno-Ocampo has started preliminary investigations of the US for war crimes.  The document is a couple of years old and states that there is sufficient evidence that the US has committed war crimes, especially in terms of detainee abuse.  One trigger for filing charges that hadn’t been met at that time was that it hadn’t been shown that the abuse was a top-down policy.  Obviously, the revelations about the “torture councils” and Bush’s approval of them takes care of that.  The other trigger is that  they have to allow the US to prosecute first.  Ironically, if Taylor got his pardons for everyone involved, that would probably be the final trigger to release Moreno-Ocampo to file charges.  I think that would be a huge problem, though, because the pardons just send such a terrible message to the rest of the world about what we are.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your kind remarks.  That column by Taylor really made my blood boil.  His insistence on pardons for torture is something that needs hard push-back on as many fronts as we can get.  I’m hoping that more prominent bloggers will take this on and make it a big issue.</p>
<p>By the way, if you dig around on the ICC website, you will see that Moreno-Ocampo has started preliminary investigations of the US for war crimes.  The document is a couple of years old and states that there is sufficient evidence that the US has committed war crimes, especially in terms of detainee abuse.  One trigger for filing charges that hadn’t been met at that time was that it hadn’t been shown that the abuse was a top-down policy.  Obviously, the revelations about the “torture councils” and Bush’s approval of them takes care of that.  The other trigger is that  they have to allow the US to prosecute first.  Ironically, if Taylor got his pardons for everyone involved, that would probably be the final trigger to release Moreno-Ocampo to file charges.  I think that would be a huge problem, though, because the pardons just send such a terrible message to the rest of the world about what we are.</p>
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		<title>By: skdadl</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/comment-page-1/#comment-86751</link>
		<dc:creator>skdadl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/#comment-86751</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Jim, I just visited and read your terrific post on Stuart Taylor. Very well done. And let’s hear it for Luis Moreno-Ocampo — nice catch, Jim. Sometime soon I’m just going to crib you, as I do so many here, EW especially. (I’m slow, but I give credit.)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, I just visited and read your terrific post on Stuart Taylor. Very well done. And let’s hear it for Luis Moreno-Ocampo — nice catch, Jim. Sometime soon I’m just going to crib you, as I do so many here, EW especially. (I’m slow, but I give credit.)</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/comment-page-1/#comment-86747</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/#comment-86747</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Interesting. I am kind of the converse.  I have seen, and some time ago briefly scanned through Ofshe’s work on false memories, but focused on his work with coerced confessions.  I used him as an expert in a couple of cases and he did superb work.  You are correct that he really doesn’t apply directly to the torture situations; although in some regards it strikes me that there is a lot of commonality between coerced confessions in criminal cases (which Richard does a lot of work in) and evidence/confessions obtained by torture.  For one, the work product of both is effectively useless operationally because of the extreme degree of unreliability.  At any rate, I know he is in your area there and I found him to be a great guy and fascinating to talk to.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;As to the West coast time issue, believe me, I fully understand.  I have the same issue.  Constantly.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting. I am kind of the converse.  I have seen, and some time ago briefly scanned through Ofshe’s work on false memories, but focused on his work with coerced confessions.  I used him as an expert in a couple of cases and he did superb work.  You are correct that he really doesn’t apply directly to the torture situations; although in some regards it strikes me that there is a lot of commonality between coerced confessions in criminal cases (which Richard does a lot of work in) and evidence/confessions obtained by torture.  For one, the work product of both is effectively useless operationally because of the extreme degree of unreliability.  At any rate, I know he is in your area there and I found him to be a great guy and fascinating to talk to.</p>
<p>As to the West coast time issue, believe me, I fully understand.  I have the same issue.  Constantly.</p>
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		<title>By: Valtin</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/comment-page-1/#comment-86746</link>
		<dc:creator>Valtin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/#comment-86746</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I’ll be here for the liveblog (though it’s kind of early for me, West Coast time).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;As for Ofshe, I’m familiar with some of his work on false memories, but never went too far in reading up on that subject. It has some overlap on the issues I’m investigating, and I found it got me too far afield, and I haven’t been able to find a way to integrate it into my articles. Some of the early workers on government investigation into “brainwashing” later go involved in the cult/deprogrammer/false memories issue. It’s a controversial and important topic.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’ll be here for the liveblog (though it’s kind of early for me, West Coast time).</p>
<p>As for Ofshe, I’m familiar with some of his work on false memories, but never went too far in reading up on that subject. It has some overlap on the issues I’m investigating, and I found it got me too far afield, and I haven’t been able to find a way to integrate it into my articles. Some of the early workers on government investigation into “brainwashing” later go involved in the cult/deprogrammer/false memories issue. It’s a controversial and important topic.</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/comment-page-1/#comment-86745</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/#comment-86745</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Valtin - I took a look at your website, you have some very thorough material on the torture brigade in our government.  Very nice; and good suggestions here for Sen. Levin.  I hope that you will be able to participate tomorrow with Sen. Levin.  Noting your bay area location and interest in the area of tortured/coerced interrogation, I am curious if you are familiar with the work of Dr. Richard Ofshe at Berkeley?  Welcome, and I hope you stop back by Emptywheel.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Valtin &#8211; I took a look at your website, you have some very thorough material on the torture brigade in our government.  Very nice; and good suggestions here for Sen. Levin.  I hope that you will be able to participate tomorrow with Sen. Levin.  Noting your bay area location and interest in the area of tortured/coerced interrogation, I am curious if you are familiar with the work of Dr. Richard Ofshe at Berkeley?  Welcome, and I hope you stop back by Emptywheel.</p>
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		<title>By: Valtin</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/comment-page-1/#comment-86743</link>
		<dc:creator>Valtin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/14/senator-levin-to-do-live-chat-on-ongoing-senate-investigation-into-detainee-abuse-at-11-et-tuesday/#comment-86743</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Let’s keep our eye on the prize everybody! The SASC is having hearings looking into torture, with an emphasis on how SERE came to be involved in reverse-engineering its own program to provide torture techniques to interrogators. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;At the hearings a few weeks ago, Sen. Levin presented a timeline of how torture was implemented at Guantanamo and elsewhere, beginning for requests by Richard Shiffrin, a Deputy General Counsel in the Department of Defense, in July 2002. &lt;strong&gt;Yet Shiffrin made requests as early as December 2001&lt;/strong&gt;, according to Lt. Col. Baumgarten of Joint Personnel Recovery Agency (JPRA), responsible for the SERE program. This is according to Baumgarten’s own testimony. Yet, inexplicably, this was never followed up by anyone on committee, nor mentioned by Sen. Levin himself in his timeline narrative. And this is despite the fact the SASC has, according to Baumgarten himself, documentary evidence of the earlier solicitation.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But the Dec. 2001 timeline issue is potentially explosive, as &lt;strong&gt;it predates approvals Bush got from his OLC re torture of prisoners, exposing Bush and probably plenty of others to war crimes charges, and or impeachment&lt;/strong&gt;. We must demand the SASC release these documents as part of more relentless and effective investigation, one that leads to the truth, no matter how high up or where it goes.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I humbly suggest that others take me up on this and make sure Levin is asked about the Baumgartner Dec. 2001 solicitation from the administration.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;For more, see my article on this, &lt;a href=&quot;http://valtinsblog.blogspot.com/2008/06/media-govt-torture-cover-up-sen-levin.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;“Media &amp; Gov’t Torture Cover-up: Sen. Levin, Release the 12/01 SERE Docs”&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let’s keep our eye on the prize everybody! The SASC is having hearings looking into torture, with an emphasis on how SERE came to be involved in reverse-engineering its own program to provide torture techniques to interrogators. </p>
<p>At the hearings a few weeks ago, Sen. Levin presented a timeline of how torture was implemented at Guantanamo and elsewhere, beginning for requests by Richard Shiffrin, a Deputy General Counsel in the Department of Defense, in July 2002. <strong>Yet Shiffrin made requests as early as December 2001</strong>, according to Lt. Col. Baumgarten of Joint Personnel Recovery Agency (JPRA), responsible for the SERE program. This is according to Baumgarten’s own testimony. Yet, inexplicably, this was never followed up by anyone on committee, nor mentioned by Sen. Levin himself in his timeline narrative. And this is despite the fact the SASC has, according to Baumgarten himself, documentary evidence of the earlier solicitation.</p>
<p>But the Dec. 2001 timeline issue is potentially explosive, as <strong>it predates approvals Bush got from his OLC re torture of prisoners, exposing Bush and probably plenty of others to war crimes charges, and or impeachment</strong>. We must demand the SASC release these documents as part of more relentless and effective investigation, one that leads to the truth, no matter how high up or where it goes.</p>
<p>I humbly suggest that others take me up on this and make sure Levin is asked about the Baumgartner Dec. 2001 solicitation from the administration.</p>
<p>For more, see my article on this, <a href="http://valtinsblog.blogspot.com/2008/06/media-govt-torture-cover-up-sen-levin.html" rel="nofollow">“Media &amp; Gov’t Torture Cover-up: Sen. Levin, Release the 12/01 SERE Docs”</a></p>
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