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	<title>Comments on: The Post FISA Amendment Act Action Begins: ACLU Fires The First Salvo &#8211; A Working Thread</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/</link>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86491</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 06:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86491</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;And Selise has added Part II to her awesome compilation post at DKos that I referenced @47 above.  It completes the timeline, and the two posts together are an absolutely superb reference.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/11/75618/7060/351/549864&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Selise FISA Part I&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/13/9730/92853/716/550516&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Selise FISA Part &lt;/a&gt;II&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Selise has added Part II to her awesome compilation post at DKos that I referenced @47 above.  It completes the timeline, and the two posts together are an absolutely superb reference.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/11/75618/7060/351/549864" rel="nofollow">Selise FISA Part I</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/13/9730/92853/716/550516" rel="nofollow">Selise FISA Part </a>II</p>
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		<title>By: PJEvans</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86186</link>
		<dc:creator>PJEvans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86186</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I don’t think he’s that bad. I think he’s just another conservative Dem, like Clinton (who was, you remember, a ‘Goldwater girl’).&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don’t think he’s that bad. I think he’s just another conservative Dem, like Clinton (who was, you remember, a ‘Goldwater girl’).</p>
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		<title>By: john in sacramento</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86176</link>
		<dc:creator>john in sacramento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:34:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86176</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Larry Lessig &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Lessig#Attitudes&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;wiki&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;Lessig&lt;/b&gt; has emphasized in interviews that his philosophy experience at Cambridge radically changed his values and career path. Previously, he had held strong conservative or libertarian political views, desired a career in business, &lt;b&gt;was a highly active Teenage Republican serving as the Youth Governor for Pennsylvania through the YMCA Youth &amp; Government program[1] in 1978 and almost pursued a Republican political career.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Another Chris Carney?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry Lessig <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Lessig#Attitudes" rel="nofollow">wiki</a></p>
<blockquote><p><b>Lessig</b> has emphasized in interviews that his philosophy experience at Cambridge radically changed his values and career path. Previously, he had held strong conservative or libertarian political views, desired a career in business, <b>was a highly active Teenage Republican serving as the Youth Governor for Pennsylvania through the YMCA Youth &amp; Government program[1] in 1978 and almost pursued a Republican political career.</b></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Another Chris Carney?</p>
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		<title>By: yonodeler</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86154</link>
		<dc:creator>yonodeler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86154</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The first sentence of the second paragraph in 55 should have “causable by government” rather than “causable be government”.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first sentence of the second paragraph in 55 should have “causable by government” rather than “causable be government”.</p>
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		<title>By: yonodeler</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86153</link>
		<dc:creator>yonodeler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86153</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;There were not enough truthful and well-informed voices in Congress to present to the citizenry an overview of what is going on with domestic surveillance and personal data collection programs. The distinction between blanket and targeted surveillance suffered as most Members of Congress preferred to convince their constituents that targeted surveillance accounts for nearly all domestic surveillance. The granting of retroactive immunity to certain telecommunications and Internet service providers was sold as just treatment of companies that purportedly put duty before self-interest when the country was in dire need of their help; meanwhile, blanket surveillance programs dependent upon the participation of service providers went unchecked and remain unchecked.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The Framers felt no need to wait for all possible harms causable be government to present before drafting constitutional law intended to prevent those harms. They were students of European history, and knew very well the tendencies of those who possessed power over others. They didnot wait for a list of recent anecdotal harms committed by government to inform their decisions as to how the Republic should be. Today, convincing anecdotes of harm to surveilled persons or companies might be all that would sway most Members of Congress to admit error, if not lying, in their positions on FISA and related domestic surveillance issues. Government secrecy and public fear of speaking up may make anecdotes of harm hard to come by.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Lawsuits by EFF, ACLU, and others support hope that reclamation of the Constitution is possible, at least in part. Yet, while I won’t wish harm on persons or companies whose ill treatment by government would necessarily provide the basis of anecdotes of harm, I will be hoping that instances of harm against persons or companies, committed by surveilling government agencies and their corporate partners, will be brought to light and provide incontrovertible evidence that Congress has done the Constitution and the country wrong.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There were not enough truthful and well-informed voices in Congress to present to the citizenry an overview of what is going on with domestic surveillance and personal data collection programs. The distinction between blanket and targeted surveillance suffered as most Members of Congress preferred to convince their constituents that targeted surveillance accounts for nearly all domestic surveillance. The granting of retroactive immunity to certain telecommunications and Internet service providers was sold as just treatment of companies that purportedly put duty before self-interest when the country was in dire need of their help; meanwhile, blanket surveillance programs dependent upon the participation of service providers went unchecked and remain unchecked.</p>
<p>The Framers felt no need to wait for all possible harms causable be government to present before drafting constitutional law intended to prevent those harms. They were students of European history, and knew very well the tendencies of those who possessed power over others. They didnot wait for a list of recent anecdotal harms committed by government to inform their decisions as to how the Republic should be. Today, convincing anecdotes of harm to surveilled persons or companies might be all that would sway most Members of Congress to admit error, if not lying, in their positions on FISA and related domestic surveillance issues. Government secrecy and public fear of speaking up may make anecdotes of harm hard to come by.  </p>
<p>Lawsuits by EFF, ACLU, and others support hope that reclamation of the Constitution is possible, at least in part. Yet, while I won’t wish harm on persons or companies whose ill treatment by government would necessarily provide the basis of anecdotes of harm, I will be hoping that instances of harm against persons or companies, committed by surveilling government agencies and their corporate partners, will be brought to light and provide incontrovertible evidence that Congress has done the Constitution and the country wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: PJEvans</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86148</link>
		<dc:creator>PJEvans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86148</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;What I want to know is,&lt;br /&gt;
Why does the legislature pass a piece-o-crap bill like this and then expect the courts to toss it out?&lt;br /&gt;
Wouldn’t it be a lot cheaper and easier to simply not pass it in the first place?&lt;br /&gt;
When did it become the legislature’s job to be just an unthinking rubber stamp?&lt;br /&gt;
and&lt;br /&gt;
Did George issue a signing statement on this one, or was Darth so busy doing a Happy Dance that George didn’t get handed one?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I want to know is,<br />
Why does the legislature pass a piece-o-crap bill like this and then expect the courts to toss it out?<br />
Wouldn’t it be a lot cheaper and easier to simply not pass it in the first place?<br />
When did it become the legislature’s job to be just an unthinking rubber stamp?<br />
and<br />
Did George issue a signing statement on this one, or was Darth so busy doing a Happy Dance that George didn’t get handed one?</p>
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		<title>By: cboldt</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86138</link>
		<dc:creator>cboldt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86138</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Make that request for Retroactive Immunity appear in September 2006, not July 2006.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/T?&amp;report=hr680p2&amp;dbname=109&amp;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
House Report 109-680, Part II&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;ROLLCALL NO. 13–DATE: 9-20-06&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;SUBJECT: Mr. Cannon offered an amendment to H.R. 5825, which was agreed to by a rollcall vote of 22 ayes to 16 nays. This amendment would limit the civil and criminal liability of telecommunications carriers for any activity arising from, or relating to, any alleged intelligence program involving electronic surveillance that the government has certified is, was, or would be intended to protect the United States from a terrorist attack. The amendment applies to all pending and future cases, and allows all such cases to be removed to Federal court. The amendment also applies the old definition of `electronic surveillance’ contained in FISA prior to enactment of the Act.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Make that request for Retroactive Immunity appear in September 2006, not July 2006.</p>
<p><a href="http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/T?&amp;report=hr680p2&amp;dbname=109&amp;" rel="nofollow"><br />
House Report 109-680, Part II</a>
</p>
<p>ROLLCALL NO. 13–DATE: 9-20-06</p>
<blockquote><p>SUBJECT: Mr. Cannon offered an amendment to H.R. 5825, which was agreed to by a rollcall vote of 22 ayes to 16 nays. This amendment would limit the civil and criminal liability of telecommunications carriers for any activity arising from, or relating to, any alleged intelligence program involving electronic surveillance that the government has certified is, was, or would be intended to protect the United States from a terrorist attack. The amendment applies to all pending and future cases, and allows all such cases to be removed to Federal court. The amendment also applies the old definition of `electronic surveillance’ contained in FISA prior to enactment of the Act.</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: cboldt</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86127</link>
		<dc:creator>cboldt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:53:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86127</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;– &lt;i&gt;Selise has compiled a very nice and thorough overview and timeline post on FISA at DKos.&lt;/i&gt; –&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Very well done, and summarizing the timeline is helpful.  The events from Dec 2005 to August 2007 are also interesting.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Dec 2005 - Dec 2006: Government says TSP is legal, resists Congressional intrusion, but gets hammered to disclose information that Congress might use to craft legislation&lt;br /&gt;
Jul 2006 - A request for retroactive immunity appears in Heather Wilson’s H.R.5825 (See &lt;a href=&quot;http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.5825:&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;“Reported in House - H.R.5825.RH&lt;/a&gt; at Section 11(a))&lt;br /&gt;
Jan 2007: Government submits TSP to FISC on some mysterious basis.  Issue “chills” in Congress (not as much clamoring against the administration, Gonzales, etc.)&lt;br /&gt;
Apr 2007: FISC puts up some resistance, government put heat on Congress to pass a bill and submits a 66 page proposal for legislation.  Congress “crickets” until late July.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The real reason I started this post was to share some speculation as to which members of Congress support personal privacy interests.  I think that number “depends,” and I’ll toss out one hypothetical.  If the Capital building had been hit on 9/11/2001, I think nearly 100% of Congress would have passed FISA “modernization.”&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>– <i>Selise has compiled a very nice and thorough overview and timeline post on FISA at DKos.</i> –</p>
<p>Very well done, and summarizing the timeline is helpful.  The events from Dec 2005 to August 2007 are also interesting.</p>
<p>Dec 2005 &#8211; Dec 2006: Government says TSP is legal, resists Congressional intrusion, but gets hammered to disclose information that Congress might use to craft legislation<br />
Jul 2006 &#8211; A request for retroactive immunity appears in Heather Wilson’s H.R.5825 (See <a href="http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.5825:" rel="nofollow">“Reported in House &#8211; H.R.5825.RH</a> at Section 11(a))<br />
Jan 2007: Government submits TSP to FISC on some mysterious basis.  Issue “chills” in Congress (not as much clamoring against the administration, Gonzales, etc.)<br />
Apr 2007: FISC puts up some resistance, government put heat on Congress to pass a bill and submits a 66 page proposal for legislation.  Congress “crickets” until late July.</p>
<p>The real reason I started this post was to share some speculation as to which members of Congress support personal privacy interests.  I think that number “depends,” and I’ll toss out one hypothetical.  If the Capital building had been hit on 9/11/2001, I think nearly 100% of Congress would have passed FISA “modernization.”</p>
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		<title>By: wigwam</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86123</link>
		<dc:creator>wigwam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 05:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;I’ve recommended Selise’s post as the must-read of all must-reads.  Damn, she has done some great work.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’ve recommended Selise’s post as the must-read of all must-reads.  Damn, she has done some great work.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/the-post-fisa-amendment-act-action-begins-aclu-fires-the-first-salvo-a-working-thread/#comment-86114</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 04:41:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Q: Would it be enough for the court to strike article II (immunity) or would the FDL/Emptywheel readers require the entire law to be stricken before their bloodlust is satiated?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Q: Do we know much of anything about the NY judge who will handle this case?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Q: Would it be enough for the court to strike article II (immunity) or would the FDL/Emptywheel readers require the entire law to be stricken before their bloodlust is satiated?</p>
<p>Q: Do we know much of anything about the NY judge who will handle this case?</p>
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