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	<title>Comments on: DOJ Apparently Doesn&#8217;t Know Whether It Told Fielding that Rove&#8217;s &#8220;Official Duties&#8221; Include Witch Hunts</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/doj-apparently-doesnt-know-whether-it-told-fielding-that-roves-official-duties-include-witch-hunts/</link>
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		<title>By: PetePierce</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/doj-apparently-doesnt-know-whether-it-told-fielding-that-roves-official-duties-include-witch-hunts/comment-page-1/#comment-86296</link>
		<dc:creator>PetePierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 05:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;You’ll have better luck calling Osama bin Ladin’s bunker in Pakistan and get a more coherent response than you will calling the scum at DOJ.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You’ll have better luck calling Osama bin Ladin’s bunker in Pakistan and get a more coherent response than you will calling the scum at DOJ.</p>
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		<title>By: MrWhy</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/doj-apparently-doesnt-know-whether-it-told-fielding-that-roves-official-duties-include-witch-hunts/comment-page-1/#comment-86203</link>
		<dc:creator>MrWhy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;It’s not unethical if you’ve been sprinkled with pixie dust.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It’s not unethical if you’ve been sprinkled with pixie dust.</p>
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		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/doj-apparently-doesnt-know-whether-it-told-fielding-that-roves-official-duties-include-witch-hunts/comment-page-1/#comment-86173</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Absoutely agree. I think your first scenario–that Fielding knew he wouldn’t get what he wanted out of DOJ–is the most likely if in fact WH did broach this with DOJ. Which would then make Fielding’s statement–suggesting DOJ supported Rove’s actions–unethical but not as bad as if it ignored a stated opinion.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And all that’s assuming that DOJ was less than willing to support Rove’s no show, which is just one possibility.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absoutely agree. I think your first scenario–that Fielding knew he wouldn’t get what he wanted out of DOJ–is the most likely if in fact WH did broach this with DOJ. Which would then make Fielding’s statement–suggesting DOJ supported Rove’s actions–unethical but not as bad as if it ignored a stated opinion.</p>
<p>And all that’s assuming that DOJ was less than willing to support Rove’s no show, which is just one possibility.</p>
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		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/doj-apparently-doesnt-know-whether-it-told-fielding-that-roves-official-duties-include-witch-hunts/comment-page-1/#comment-86163</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Agreed.  Gramm and Helms were bookends, models of constructive statesmanship.  Not.  Gramm’s support for the financial services sector is a pivotal reason for the current mortgage-cum-financial sector meltdown.  Which was preceded by the hundreds of billions that his backers pulled out of the economy by way of their predatory lending and from selling highly questionable derivatives and other financial products”.  But Gramm got his, so the rest of American can pound salt.  And he’s said as much many times.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;No one here needs to be reminded about what it would mean to 99% of Americans if John McCain is allowed to put this man in charge of his economic policy.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed.  Gramm and Helms were bookends, models of constructive statesmanship.  Not.  Gramm’s support for the financial services sector is a pivotal reason for the current mortgage-cum-financial sector meltdown.  Which was preceded by the hundreds of billions that his backers pulled out of the economy by way of their predatory lending and from selling highly questionable derivatives and other financial products”.  But Gramm got his, so the rest of American can pound salt.  And he’s said as much many times.  </p>
<p>No one here needs to be reminded about what it would mean to 99% of Americans if John McCain is allowed to put this man in charge of his economic policy.</p>
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		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/doj-apparently-doesnt-know-whether-it-told-fielding-that-roves-official-duties-include-witch-hunts/comment-page-1/#comment-86161</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:20:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Fielding, at least, would have known better than to request a formal opinion if his informal discussions had already suggested that he wouldn’t like the result.  On this topic, Mukasey himself probably would have had a chat with Fielding about what his OLC could or couldn’t say.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;You’re probably correct that all Fielding had to work with was the letter Bradbury wrote in connection with a Congressional subpoena from a year earlier.  Which would explain the passive, almost indirect, way in which Fielding used it in his letter to Luskin.  If so, I would say that’s already unethical conduct.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Had Fielding actually received written confirmation from OLC that it couldn’t justify asserting EP (or any other legitimate basis to ignore) the current subpoena — and hasn’t this administration relied on the characterization of such advice as binding on the executive branch? — then Fielding’s letter would be considerably farther beyond the ethical pale.  Under color of law, he would have knowingly led a private individual unlawfully to ignore a valid subpoena.  I wonder what the criminal law gurus here would say to that?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;My guess is that Mukasey will try to fudge the issue altogether.  He might try the DOJ’s venerable, “We already responded fully to your request”.  More likely, he’ll try the “parallel lines” fudge.  Something like, “If waterboarding is torture, then it’s illegal,” a rhetorical device that attempts to hide whether the lines intersect by refusing to connect the obvious dots and say that waterboarding &lt;em&gt;is widely regarded as &lt;/em&gt;torture &lt;em&gt;and that &lt;/em&gt;waterboarding &lt;em&gt;is &lt;/em&gt;illegal.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In this case, it would be, “The Committee wants to ask Rove about his conduct &lt;em&gt;during his tenure&lt;/em&gt; as White House adviser.  It can’t do that….”  All while avoiding asserting EP or admitting whether the behavior the Committee does want to ask Rove about was part of his official duties.  I think the technical term for that is “circle jerk”.  The DOJ’s getting good at it.  Keep the calls going, this time to Committee staffers with questions their CongressCritters ought to ask.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fielding, at least, would have known better than to request a formal opinion if his informal discussions had already suggested that he wouldn’t like the result.  On this topic, Mukasey himself probably would have had a chat with Fielding about what his OLC could or couldn’t say.  </p>
<p>You’re probably correct that all Fielding had to work with was the letter Bradbury wrote in connection with a Congressional subpoena from a year earlier.  Which would explain the passive, almost indirect, way in which Fielding used it in his letter to Luskin.  If so, I would say that’s already unethical conduct.  </p>
<p>Had Fielding actually received written confirmation from OLC that it couldn’t justify asserting EP (or any other legitimate basis to ignore) the current subpoena — and hasn’t this administration relied on the characterization of such advice as binding on the executive branch? — then Fielding’s letter would be considerably farther beyond the ethical pale.  Under color of law, he would have knowingly led a private individual unlawfully to ignore a valid subpoena.  I wonder what the criminal law gurus here would say to that?</p>
<p>My guess is that Mukasey will try to fudge the issue altogether.  He might try the DOJ’s venerable, “We already responded fully to your request”.  More likely, he’ll try the “parallel lines” fudge.  Something like, “If waterboarding is torture, then it’s illegal,” a rhetorical device that attempts to hide whether the lines intersect by refusing to connect the obvious dots and say that waterboarding <em>is widely regarded as </em>torture <em>and that </em>waterboarding <em>is </em>illegal.  </p>
<p>In this case, it would be, “The Committee wants to ask Rove about his conduct <em>during his tenure</em> as White House adviser.  It can’t do that….”  All while avoiding asserting EP or admitting whether the behavior the Committee does want to ask Rove about was part of his official duties.  I think the technical term for that is “circle jerk”.  The DOJ’s getting good at it.  Keep the calls going, this time to Committee staffers with questions their CongressCritters ought to ask.</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/doj-apparently-doesnt-know-whether-it-told-fielding-that-roves-official-duties-include-witch-hunts/comment-page-1/#comment-86160</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Oh, don’t get me wrong, it was an extremely sweet play by Marcy. Perfect move. The question above was posited “how would they answer” so I was only responding to that.  It really does put them in a sticky patch though doesn’t it?  And you are right about potential uses as a putative admission against interest by Siegelman; however, he is caught in appeal limbo right now, so hard for him to do too much.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;As to the path of the ICRC memo, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/11/AR2008071102954.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this WaPo article&lt;/a&gt; is a little more clear, but not a lot.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, don’t get me wrong, it was an extremely sweet play by Marcy. Perfect move. The question above was posited “how would they answer” so I was only responding to that.  It really does put them in a sticky patch though doesn’t it?  And you are right about potential uses as a putative admission against interest by Siegelman; however, he is caught in appeal limbo right now, so hard for him to do too much.</p>
<p>As to the path of the ICRC memo, <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/11/AR2008071102954.html" rel="nofollow">this WaPo article</a> is a little more clear, but not a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnLopresti</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/doj-apparently-doesnt-know-whether-it-told-fielding-that-roves-official-duties-include-witch-hunts/comment-page-1/#comment-86158</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnLopresti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:07:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Footnote:  MLAT and extradite treaty &lt;a href=&quot;http://useu.usmission.gov/Dossiers/Justice_Law_Enforcement/Dec1604_MLAT_Signings.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;press &lt;/a&gt;announcement 2004.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Footnote:  MLAT and extradite treaty <a href="http://useu.usmission.gov/Dossiers/Justice_Law_Enforcement/Dec1604_MLAT_Signings.asp" rel="nofollow">press </a>announcement 2004.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnLopresti</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/doj-apparently-doesnt-know-whether-it-told-fielding-that-roves-official-duties-include-witch-hunts/comment-page-1/#comment-86157</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnLopresti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:00:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/doj-apparently-doesnt-know-whether-it-told-fielding-that-roves-official-duties-include-witch-hunts/#comment-86157</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I thought Luskin might have helped Rove arrange the timing of attendance at an extraterritorial event to coincide with the date congress demanded he appear in the US, and patterned the selection of which country to visit based on Sweden’s notorious uncooperativeness in extraditions based on that country’s long record of independence and respect for individual rights.  However, it turns out JAshcroft cosigned with “Ambassador Sven-Olof Petersson, Sweden’s Permanent Representative to the EU; Ambassador Eikka Kosonen, Finland’s Permanent Representative to the EU; and Ambassador Jan De Bock, Belgium’s Permanent Representative to the EU” on December 16, 2004 a new extradition and mutual legal assistance treaty. So that strategem is out.  I would have suggested Rove tour the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.globearenas.se/en/event/19099/19360/guided-summer-tours.aspx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;applelike structure&lt;/a&gt; Stockholm calls the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.arkema-inc.com/index.cfm?pag=723&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Globe&lt;/a&gt;, or some &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fig.net/fig2008/index.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;majestic architecture&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt; venue, or a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.stockholmtown.com/templates/CongressMember____8693.aspx?epslanguage=EN&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;convention center&lt;/a&gt;.  However, that is moot now.  Might as well return and utilize one of the 300 political conduits between DoJ and the pols in the whitehouse to devise a reply that keeps Fielding’s workgroup out of DoJ’s doghouse.  Sometimes all tarnation breaks loose when Rove goes on a boondoggle to an EU member state.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought Luskin might have helped Rove arrange the timing of attendance at an extraterritorial event to coincide with the date congress demanded he appear in the US, and patterned the selection of which country to visit based on Sweden’s notorious uncooperativeness in extraditions based on that country’s long record of independence and respect for individual rights.  However, it turns out JAshcroft cosigned with “Ambassador Sven-Olof Petersson, Sweden’s Permanent Representative to the EU; Ambassador Eikka Kosonen, Finland’s Permanent Representative to the EU; and Ambassador Jan De Bock, Belgium’s Permanent Representative to the EU” on December 16, 2004 a new extradition and mutual legal assistance treaty. So that strategem is out.  I would have suggested Rove tour the <a href="http://www.globearenas.se/en/event/19099/19360/guided-summer-tours.aspx" rel="nofollow">applelike structure</a> Stockholm calls the <a href="http://www.arkema-inc.com/index.cfm?pag=723" rel="nofollow">Globe</a>, or some <a href="http://www.fig.net/fig2008/index.htm" rel="nofollow">majestic architecture</a><a></a> venue, or a <a href="http://www.stockholmtown.com/templates/CongressMember____8693.aspx?epslanguage=EN" rel="nofollow">convention center</a>.  However, that is moot now.  Might as well return and utilize one of the 300 political conduits between DoJ and the pols in the whitehouse to devise a reply that keeps Fielding’s workgroup out of DoJ’s doghouse.  Sometimes all tarnation breaks loose when Rove goes on a boondoggle to an EU member state.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/doj-apparently-doesnt-know-whether-it-told-fielding-that-roves-official-duties-include-witch-hunts/comment-page-1/#comment-86156</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;85 - had he stayed in economics, more of us would have prospered though.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>85 &#8211; had he stayed in economics, more of us would have prospered though.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/doj-apparently-doesnt-know-whether-it-told-fielding-that-roves-official-duties-include-witch-hunts/comment-page-1/#comment-86155</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/doj-apparently-doesnt-know-whether-it-told-fielding-that-roves-official-duties-include-witch-hunts/#comment-86155</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;63 - that’s very helpful and it shows even more clearly why a group like ICRC would be peculiarly ineffective with respect to having any kind of involvement with those who are claimed to be “stateless” actors.  So do you think the report that was leaked would have been directed to State?  To Rice?  The excerpt from the book made it sound like it was the CIA who made sure it went to the WH.  I may have misread that but I wonder how CIA got it - what the flow was.  And also if the Foreign Affairs Committee received it, who is on that committee.  I’d have to wonder if they didn’t get the report, too, what they think of that?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;46 et seq.  I basically agree with everything you are saying, bmaz, from a standpoint of how DOJ/Fielding will handle things and the practical, short term effect.  But I still really like the approach for several reasons.   First and foremost is that this (the calling of Rove before Congress) is a political conflict and all things involving framing are important on those kinds of conflicts.  The framing point is a nice one if the press or the committee or anyone picks it up and runs with it and hammers on it.   Mukasey won’t about-face imo, but he should have to pay the political consequence for being craven, as should the others invovled&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So to hammer on the point that DOJ is not taking action on Rove’s failure to appear to answer questions about the politicizing of the Seigelman prosecution, bc DOJ is saying those questions impact on Rove’s “official duties” in the Exec, is politically a win.  Mukasey probably would say, under questioning if it got to that, that he did not agree with that framing, and that the docs speak for themselves, etc. but something like “Rove’s WH Duties Included Overseeing DOJ Political Prosecutions” is a nice possible headline to have in the offing, or in the present with blogs if nothing else.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Then there is the secondary, non-political front. That’s the Seigelman prosecution itself and the appeals process there.  And that’s where it is nice to see political pressure making DOJ and the WH shoot themselves in the foot some.  Bc in the Seigelman case, you aren’t in a political confrontation between Executive and Legislative branches anymore.  You are in a citizen v. Exec setting taking place in the Judiciary.  And the public record on what the WH has and has not done is some nice fodder there, imo.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Karl Rove can’t answer questions about the handling of the Seigelman prosecution bc his official wh duties included his involvement in and handling of the Seigelman prosecution?  Really - hmmm, I have to think Seigelman’s lawyers are going to have fun with that as an admission against interest for the WH and on the discovery front for their prosecutorial misfeasance defenses.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Someone could/should have some real fun with drafting discovery there - identify the persons and documents who are aware of, reference, explain, outline, detail, etc. etc. etc. involvement of Rove and his office in the Seigelman prosecution; etc. etc. etc.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;All Seigelman needs is a Judge who was a Lets Make a Deal fan and who will say, “President Bush [ex-Pres probably by the time it plays out] com’on down.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So while I don’t think that DOj will operate politically in the confrontation between Congress and the WH in any way but poorly and corruptly, I’m all in favor of having the fight against the DOJ Consiglieres take place on two fronts at once, bc eventually someone forgets to cover their backside.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If bets were on, though, I’d bet money that at some point someone will use bmaz’s words about the document/letters/memos speaking for themselves, almost exactly.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>63 &#8211; that’s very helpful and it shows even more clearly why a group like ICRC would be peculiarly ineffective with respect to having any kind of involvement with those who are claimed to be “stateless” actors.  So do you think the report that was leaked would have been directed to State?  To Rice?  The excerpt from the book made it sound like it was the CIA who made sure it went to the WH.  I may have misread that but I wonder how CIA got it &#8211; what the flow was.  And also if the Foreign Affairs Committee received it, who is on that committee.  I’d have to wonder if they didn’t get the report, too, what they think of that?</p>
<p>46 et seq.  I basically agree with everything you are saying, bmaz, from a standpoint of how DOJ/Fielding will handle things and the practical, short term effect.  But I still really like the approach for several reasons.   First and foremost is that this (the calling of Rove before Congress) is a political conflict and all things involving framing are important on those kinds of conflicts.  The framing point is a nice one if the press or the committee or anyone picks it up and runs with it and hammers on it.   Mukasey won’t about-face imo, but he should have to pay the political consequence for being craven, as should the others invovled</p>
<p>So to hammer on the point that DOJ is not taking action on Rove’s failure to appear to answer questions about the politicizing of the Seigelman prosecution, bc DOJ is saying those questions impact on Rove’s “official duties” in the Exec, is politically a win.  Mukasey probably would say, under questioning if it got to that, that he did not agree with that framing, and that the docs speak for themselves, etc. but something like “Rove’s WH Duties Included Overseeing DOJ Political Prosecutions” is a nice possible headline to have in the offing, or in the present with blogs if nothing else.</p>
<p>Then there is the secondary, non-political front. That’s the Seigelman prosecution itself and the appeals process there.  And that’s where it is nice to see political pressure making DOJ and the WH shoot themselves in the foot some.  Bc in the Seigelman case, you aren’t in a political confrontation between Executive and Legislative branches anymore.  You are in a citizen v. Exec setting taking place in the Judiciary.  And the public record on what the WH has and has not done is some nice fodder there, imo.</p>
<p>Karl Rove can’t answer questions about the handling of the Seigelman prosecution bc his official wh duties included his involvement in and handling of the Seigelman prosecution?  Really &#8211; hmmm, I have to think Seigelman’s lawyers are going to have fun with that as an admission against interest for the WH and on the discovery front for their prosecutorial misfeasance defenses.  </p>
<p>Someone could/should have some real fun with drafting discovery there &#8211; identify the persons and documents who are aware of, reference, explain, outline, detail, etc. etc. etc. involvement of Rove and his office in the Seigelman prosecution; etc. etc. etc.</p>
<p>All Seigelman needs is a Judge who was a Lets Make a Deal fan and who will say, “President Bush [ex-Pres probably by the time it plays out] com’on down.”</p>
<p>So while I don’t think that DOj will operate politically in the confrontation between Congress and the WH in any way but poorly and corruptly, I’m all in favor of having the fight against the DOJ Consiglieres take place on two fronts at once, bc eventually someone forgets to cover their backside.</p>
<p>If bets were on, though, I’d bet money that at some point someone will use bmaz’s words about the document/letters/memos speaking for themselves, almost exactly.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
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