Comments on: Webb and McCain’s Attacks and the GI Bill http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/ Tue, 24 Nov 2009 02:00:06 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Leen http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-83482 Leen Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:33:21 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/#comment-83482 <p>I have to admit I don’t always honor people for serving in immoral, illegal and very brutal and bloody wars. (Vietnam, Desert Storm, Iraq II) While I understand that many people join the military because they believe in protecting their country and this honorable instinct is too be respected. </p> <p>I have encountered too many soldiers who have a killing attitude that is alarming and disgusting. I have heard soldiers say “kill them all” and some soldiers have quite a frightening attitude. I do honor those soldiers who come back from Iraq and realize how their lives , instincts and sometimes honor have been seriously manipulated and abused stand up too the Bush administration. I completely honor them.</p> <p>Senator Webb, Senator McCain and General Wesley Clark served in such an illegal and immoral war… Vietnam. Do I respect them for this NO! Do I feel empathy and compassion for the way their lives were manipulated…Yes. That is unless they served in Vietnam with all the reasons we were there available to them. Vietnam was as immoral and illegal as the war in Iraq. </p> <p>Do I respect General Wesley Clark for the way he dealt Operation Allied Force .. I believe I do.</p> <p>Do I respect General Wesley Clark for the way he has attempted to stand up the I-Lobby. Yes I do. Do I respect General Wesley Clark efforts to push for negotiations and diplomacy with Iran. Yes I do. </p> <p>Do I respect Senator Webbs endless efforts to make sure that Vets get what they deserve YOU BET</p> <p>But if they all knowingly served in Vietnam with all of the information available to them about why our nation was in Vietnam. Do I respect that Hell NO!</p> I have to admit I don’t always honor people for serving in immoral, illegal and very brutal and bloody wars. (Vietnam, Desert Storm, Iraq II) While I understand that many people join the military because they believe in protecting their country and this honorable instinct is too be respected.

I have encountered too many soldiers who have a killing attitude that is alarming and disgusting. I have heard soldiers say “kill them all” and some soldiers have quite a frightening attitude. I do honor those soldiers who come back from Iraq and realize how their lives , instincts and sometimes honor have been seriously manipulated and abused stand up too the Bush administration. I completely honor them.

Senator Webb, Senator McCain and General Wesley Clark served in such an illegal and immoral war… Vietnam. Do I respect them for this NO! Do I feel empathy and compassion for the way their lives were manipulated…Yes. That is unless they served in Vietnam with all the reasons we were there available to them. Vietnam was as immoral and illegal as the war in Iraq.

Do I respect General Wesley Clark for the way he dealt Operation Allied Force .. I believe I do.

Do I respect General Wesley Clark for the way he has attempted to stand up the I-Lobby. Yes I do. Do I respect General Wesley Clark efforts to push for negotiations and diplomacy with Iran. Yes I do.

Do I respect Senator Webbs endless efforts to make sure that Vets get what they deserve YOU BET

But if they all knowingly served in Vietnam with all of the information available to them about why our nation was in Vietnam. Do I respect that Hell NO!

]]> By: readerOfTeaLeaves http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-83454 readerOfTeaLeaves Thu, 03 Jul 2008 02:21:54 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/#comment-83454 <p>Bob, wow do I wish you’d come back and read this.<br /> I just watched the *nutso* clip that TPM put together of all the huffing and snuffing over this tempest and I’m almost ready to laugh.</p> <p>Wow. The wingnuts want <em>fistfights</em> in Times Square between Gen Clarke and McSame?! Oh. My. Gawd.<br /> Damn. These are probably the same Great Minds that argue Bear Stearns is Too Big to Fail (so we must bail out criminal conduct to the tune of $32 b-b-billion). Hey, Bear Stearns is a Wall Street firm, and Wall Street is American, so therefore Bear Stearns is clearly patriotic. Therefore, we must cover their sleazy asses.<br /> Yeah… there’s logic there someplace.<br /> I guess.</p> <p>Myself, I’d need a high powered microscope to find it, but whatever…</p> <p>Here’s what I know: I wanna be on the same party/ticket as Wesley Clark.<br /> There’s a reason (or a few) that he’s a G-e-n-e-r-a-l.</p> <p>I’ll leave it at that.</p> <p>I <em>totally</em> agree with your calls on this dustup.</p> Bob, wow do I wish you’d come back and read this.
I just watched the *nutso* clip that TPM put together of all the huffing and snuffing over this tempest and I’m almost ready to laugh.

Wow. The wingnuts want fistfights in Times Square between Gen Clarke and McSame?! Oh. My. Gawd.
Damn. These are probably the same Great Minds that argue Bear Stearns is Too Big to Fail (so we must bail out criminal conduct to the tune of $32 b-b-billion). Hey, Bear Stearns is a Wall Street firm, and Wall Street is American, so therefore Bear Stearns is clearly patriotic. Therefore, we must cover their sleazy asses.
Yeah… there’s logic there someplace.
I guess.

Myself, I’d need a high powered microscope to find it, but whatever…

Here’s what I know: I wanna be on the same party/ticket as Wesley Clark.
There’s a reason (or a few) that he’s a G-e-n-e-r-a-l.

I’ll leave it at that.

I totally agree with your calls on this dustup.

]]> By: rich2506 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-83374 rich2506 Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:29:05 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/#comment-83374 <p>Back on my second ship (PN3(Ret), USN, 1991-2001), a Boatswain’s Mate 3rd Class (They handle the deck work and the small boats) was upset because a Yeoman 2nd Class (Paperwork guy, a 2nd Class is equivalent to an Army Sargeant while a 3rd Class is equivalent to an Army Corporal) had been put in charge of our work group. Our Boatswain’s Mate explained that a Yeoman 2nd Class did pretty much the same thing a Yeoman 3rd Class did, he just got more money for doing it. A Boatswain’s Mate 3rd Class was very different from a Boatswain’s Mate Seaman (One rank lower than 3rd Class, equivalent to an Army Private 1st Class) as the 3rd was put in charge of his fellows and was responsible for seeing to it that a bunch of newbies and people who hadn’t yet chosen their specialties got the decks painted and the anchors cleaned and the small boats fueled up. I was a paperwork guy myself and could see his point.<br /> Clark is right. Being a jet pilot is very, very different from being, say, a ship’s captain, even though they may have the same rank. There are many, many jobs in the Armed Forces, some with more actual management experience than others.</p> Back on my second ship (PN3(Ret), USN, 1991-2001), a Boatswain’s Mate 3rd Class (They handle the deck work and the small boats) was upset because a Yeoman 2nd Class (Paperwork guy, a 2nd Class is equivalent to an Army Sargeant while a 3rd Class is equivalent to an Army Corporal) had been put in charge of our work group. Our Boatswain’s Mate explained that a Yeoman 2nd Class did pretty much the same thing a Yeoman 3rd Class did, he just got more money for doing it. A Boatswain’s Mate 3rd Class was very different from a Boatswain’s Mate Seaman (One rank lower than 3rd Class, equivalent to an Army Private 1st Class) as the 3rd was put in charge of his fellows and was responsible for seeing to it that a bunch of newbies and people who hadn’t yet chosen their specialties got the decks painted and the anchors cleaned and the small boats fueled up. I was a paperwork guy myself and could see his point.
Clark is right. Being a jet pilot is very, very different from being, say, a ship’s captain, even though they may have the same rank. There are many, many jobs in the Armed Forces, some with more actual management experience than others.

]]> By: bmaz http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-83362 bmaz Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:51:50 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/#comment-83362 <p>I know, my frustration wasn’t aimed at you, I have just been in a surly mood over this lately. Then when Obama waded into the church/state mess yesterday, even with “better protections than Bush” (whoopee, Bush had about zero protections), it sent me over the edge. Both the 4th Amendment and church/state barrier have been pet peeves of mine literally for decades.</p> I know, my frustration wasn’t aimed at you, I have just been in a surly mood over this lately. Then when Obama waded into the church/state mess yesterday, even with “better protections than Bush” (whoopee, Bush had about zero protections), it sent me over the edge. Both the 4th Amendment and church/state barrier have been pet peeves of mine literally for decades.

]]> By: al75 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-83355 al75 Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:36:28 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/#comment-83355 <p>I understand the sentiment, and largely share it.</p> I understand the sentiment, and largely share it.

]]> By: bmaz http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-83351 bmaz Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:25:01 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/#comment-83351 <p>Yeah, well he can damn well play his petty little electoral poker game with something other than my Constitution. In fact, if that is all it is worth to him, Obama can just head to where the sun doesn’t shine. Right now. I have flat out had it with politicians using the Constitution as a chip in their fucking “poker game”.</p> Yeah, well he can damn well play his petty little electoral poker game with something other than my Constitution. In fact, if that is all it is worth to him, Obama can just head to where the sun doesn’t shine. Right now. I have flat out had it with politicians using the Constitution as a chip in their fucking “poker game”.

]]> By: brendanx http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-83349 brendanx Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:15:18 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/#comment-83349 <p>Some people are going into contortions to try to explain this Clark/Webb stuff as concerted Obama strategy. I agree, though — McCain has crushed Obama this week with this.</p> <p>And Clark was on his heels in Schieffer’s show — but perhaps I’m missing the context of the “untested and untried” quote of Clark’s Schieffer dug up: here’s the <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/FTN_062908.pdf" rel="nofollow">transcript</a>.</p> Some people are going into contortions to try to explain this Clark/Webb stuff as concerted Obama strategy. I agree, though — McCain has crushed Obama this week with this.

And Clark was on his heels in Schieffer’s show — but perhaps I’m missing the context of the “untested and untried” quote of Clark’s Schieffer dug up: here’s the transcript.

]]> By: MarieRoget http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-83340 MarieRoget Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:47:26 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/#comment-83340 <p>I see you are discussing this very thing upstairs…</p> I see you are discussing this very thing upstairs…

]]> By: MarieRoget http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-83334 MarieRoget Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:30:17 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/#comment-83334 <p>OT, but too strange not to mention- Fredo attempts an op-ed piece in the L.A. Times this morning. Almost dropped my coffee mug when I opened the dead tree version this a.m.</p> <p><em>Note to Alberto- using yr. middle initial does not make us all forget who you are & what you did</em>:</p> <p><a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-gonzales2-2008jul02,0,747438.story" rel="nofollow">What Latinos Want From Their President-<br /> Any candidate who wants to attract this crucial voting bloc must address racial equality.<br /> By Alberto R. Gonzales<br /> July 2, 2008</a></p> OT, but too strange not to mention- Fredo attempts an op-ed piece in the L.A. Times this morning. Almost dropped my coffee mug when I opened the dead tree version this a.m.

Note to Alberto- using yr. middle initial does not make us all forget who you are & what you did:

What Latinos Want From Their President-
Any candidate who wants to attract this crucial voting bloc must address racial equality.
By Alberto R. Gonzales
July 2, 2008

]]> By: jackie http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/comment-page-1/#comment-83331 jackie Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:23:00 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/07/01/webb-and-mccains-attacks-and-the-gi-bill/#comment-83331 <p>Opps, sprayed coffee all over the cat….She is NOT a happy kitty at the moment….:)</p> Opps, sprayed coffee all over the cat….She is NOT a happy kitty at the moment….:)

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