Here's what Jim Comey had to say about the illegality of the warrantless wiretap program:
SPECTER: OK. So what the administration, executive branch of the president, did was not illegal.
COMEY: I'm not saying -- again, that's why I kept avoiding using that term. I had not reached a conclusion that it was.
The only conclusion I reached is that I could not, after a whole lot of hard work, find an adequate legal basis for the program.
SPECTER: OK.
Well, now I understand why you didn't say it was illegal. What I don't understand is why you now won't say it was legal.
COMEY: Well, I suppose there's an argument -- as I said, I'm not a presidential scholar -- that because the head of the executive branch determined that it was appropriate to do, that that meant for purposes of those in the executive branch it was legal.
I disagreed with that conclusion. Our legal analysis was that we couldn't find an adequate legal basis for aspects of this matter. And for that reason, I couldn't certify it to its legality.
Comey's a pretty conservative lawyer. Even still, he obviously struggled seriously to figure out whether, if the President said something that had no basis in law was legal, it was legal, or not.
You might think that's the kind of challenging legal assessment Attorney General Mukasey is doing, preparing (as he surely is) to deliver the immunity the FISA capitulation will give the telecoms within the next week.
But you'd be wrong. As a reminder, here's what the immunity language in the FISA capitulation says.
[A] civil action may not lie or be maintained in a Federal or State court against any person for providing assistance to an element of the intelligence community, and shall be properly dismissed, if the Attorney General certifies to the district court of the United States in which such action is pending that
[snip]
(4) the assistance alleged to have been provided by the electronic communication service provider was --
(A) in connection with intelligence activity involving communications that was (i) authorized by the President during the period beginning on September 11, 2001, and ending on January 17, 2007 and (ii) designed to prevent or detect a terrorist attack, or activities in preparation of a terrorist attack, against the United States" and
(B) the subject of a written request or directive, or a series of written requests or directives, from the Attorney General or the head of an element of the intelligence community (or the deputy of such person) to the electronic communication service provider indicating that the activity was (i) authorized by the President; and (ii) determined to be lawful.
Look at the language carefully. It doesn't say, "Michael Mukasey, a conservative and complicit--but still a once-respectable--lawyer, must review the program and certify that the program was legal." Rather, it says that, for the telecoms to receive their immunity, the Attorney General (Mukasey) only has to certify that at the time the Administration requested the telecoms' assistance, they were told, in writing, that the program was "(i) authorized by the President, and (ii) determined to be lawful." There's no "determining to be lawful" going on now. There's simply the assertion, on a piece of paper, that someone--they don't even have to say a lawyer did the determining!!!--someone determined the program to be lawful. It could have been Jenna Bush, on a bender, "determining the program to be legal." So long as she could manage to put pen to paper to certify as such--that's the only standard the FISA capitulation requires!! Me, you, my dog McCaffrey--anyone of us could determine the program to be legal; had we done so, and told the telecoms as much, they go scot free.
And, in fact, it's almost that bad. We know, after all, that on one of the certifications, someone almost as incompetent as Jenna on a bender (though not quite as competent as my dog McCaffrey) "determined the program to be lawful."
The Committee can say, however, that beginning soon after September 11, 2001, the Executive branch provided written requests or directives to U.S. electronic communication service providers to obtain their assistance with communications intelligence activities that had been authorized by the President.
The Committee has reviewed all of the relevant correspondence. The letters were provided to electronic communication service providers at regular intervals. All of the letters stated that the activities had been authorized by the President. All of the letters also stated that the activities had been determined to be lawful by the Attorney General, except for one letter that covered a period of less than sixty days. That letter, which like all the others stated that the activities had been authorized by the President, stated that the activities had been determined to be lawful by the Counsel to the President. [my emphasis]
For a period of time, only the President's own lawyer, Alberto Gonzales "determined the program to be lawful." The President said, "If the President says it's legal, it's legal." And then, the hack lawyer who had protected Bush from legal consequences going back to Texas days said "If the President says it's legal, it's legal." And voila! Based on the President and then his Fredo declaring the illegal wiretap program to be legal--after a bunch of competent lawyers had already said it was not legal--the telecoms get their immunity.
Now, just as a reminder, here's what a bunch of Republicans think of Alberto Gonzales.
Chuck Hagel: Gonzales can no longer meet the standard where his "honesty and capability are beyond question" and "has lost the moral authority to lead”
John McCain: "I am very disappointed in his performance"
Tom Coburn: There "has to be consequences" for Gonzales' leadership failure
Kit Bond: Having Alberto Gonzales at DOJ "is doing more harm than good"
Tom Tancredo: "Misplaced priorities, political miscalculation, and a failure to enforce the laws which he has sworn to uphold"
No moral authority ... questionable honesty and capability ... doing more harm than good ... failure to enforce the laws which he was sworn to uphold. Based on this man's word, Congress is preparing to violate the separation of powers and sweep a whole bunch of law-breaking under the rug.
The Republicans and Democrats in Congress are preparing to trade our legal rights away based on the word of someone even the most conservative politicians recognize failed to enforce the laws he swore to uphold.
That's how cheap our laws have become. When the word of a hack like Alberto Gonzales is enough for Congress to trade our legal rights away, our laws have become very cheap indeed.
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Wow Marcy, you have synthesized this right down to the rotten pit. No, you have identified the bacterial beginnings.
I guess I would call you an etiologist.
Luv the Tancredo cite, who only thinks Gonzo sux due to being of arguably illegal origins.
Hagel- can I ride the Obama train?
McCain- wish I could take this back, Herr Dobson.
Bond- we need subtlety in lawbreaking.
thanks.
once again.
”If the President says it’s legal, it’s legal.” reminds me of some far off time in alice in wonderland or something similar… the scary thing is, this is in real time… the us president does hollywood one better.. is anyone paying attention??
OT I’d like to know what Senators are in chamber listening to Dodd?
Marcy they should read your blog on the Senate floor!!
Marcy, herein, you have distilled a fine and true serum. Is Obama gonna show up? The MSM has done a great job hiding this matter from a largely unconcerned public. Obama may walk away in silence and pay only a small political price. No doubt, he is the least worst. Will he take a chance and piss off enlightened voters? He is still least worst.
And then there’s Claire McCaskill.
She’s my senator, and I got this from her today . . .
*sigh*
She’s a former prosecutor, and she’s trying to sell the “We Meant Well” defense? Good grief.
Oh, and I took her up on the offer to contact her again . . .
Ordinarily one would think that a statutory requirement like, “determined to be lawful” could be done by “any lawyer”, “based on a good faith interpretation of the applicable law”. Terms this administration defines with considerable elasticity, since it includes Alberto Gonzales in their list of such lawyers.
However, I seem to recall that this administration has previously taken the position that the President can make his own determinations of what is “lawful”, and that his instructions to, eg, the DOJ, to that effect are conclusive.
Kinda like the President pardoning his own legal transgressions, isn’t it?
Outstanding! I was kind of hoping you would!
Dodd just stated he was of the 2nd branch not the third branch and as a congressman he job was to ensure that congress did not tramople the 3rd branch..(.my words)
bad spelling
maybe you should ask if she listened to Dodd and did she take any of it in?
Let me translate
Marcy, if I understand this right Comey could not find for or against but mukasey is willing to destroy his reputation as a lawyer and AG to say it was and is legal(unitary exec)
tooo funny!
I wrote her back before Dodd got up to speak.
I did suggest she check out one of the fine posts by bmaz here at EW’s, though.
As Claire McCaskill is a former prosecutor, I wonder just where in all those law books, writs and opinions she found the precedent for the Peeping Comms to nullify their behavior simply because: “The Administration fooled us!”
I just sent a message to Mary Landrieu. I used to know her socially (Hi, how are you?) at legislative functions in Baton Rouge. Anyway, I used the fact that I still have a lot of family in Louisiana to try and gain her attention — and state that there is absolutely no reason for her to support the immunity provisions of this bill.
I am just hoping that she is pissed off enough at what BushCo did to New Orleans (her home turf) that she might decide to get even…
No.
Mukasey’s not making a legal determination at all. All he’s doing is looking at a piece of paper we all know to exist (and we all know to have been signed after a bunch of lawyers found the program ILLEGAL) to say whether it actually says, 1) The president authorized it 2) It has been determined to be legal (by Jenna on her bender and other notables).
I got that wrong when I first read it. Mukasey’s not making an interpretation of the law. He’s reading a document, just like a beginning secretary does.
What gets me is that a lot of these people that support the Republican parties position are Veterans of WWII, and all or most of us are 1st generation WWII children ( well except some of you). What part of WWII do they not understand that as Dodd said the N trials were about the rule of LAW.
Raw Story has an interesting post up from The Politico’s “The Crypt.” It is not just that AGAG’s word is helping to trade away our Constitution — it is also about Democrats who flipped their votes last week — and received, on average, $8359 more in contributions from the telecoms.
“House Democrats who flipped their votes to support retroactive immunity for telecom companies in last week’s FISA bill took thousands of dollars more from phone companies than Democrats who consistently voted against legislation with an immunity provision, according to an analysis by MAPLight.org.”
We just don’t have enough money, apparently, to merit upholding our laws…
Thanks a little slow tonight…left messages at Dole and Burr’s office, lot of good that will do just hoping they may grow a heart..snicker.
can you say bribe?
Need a laugh?
Bluto: “It’s not over till we say it’s over” *g*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf74T5t-f3k
This is the only video I could find with the entire scene, and whoever uploaded it, dubbed their voice in in a few places, which is kind of annoying, but still it’s the entire scene
I think that’s close but I am seeing in the last part this as a more complete translation:
You know, there really hasn’t been any true determination of legality here. Okay, I mean even beyond the obvious. The Administration has proffered that the legality was established in a series of letters by the Attorney General, with the exception of one period of less than 60 days in which the legality was determined by by a letter from the White House Counsel. But the reliance of the AG (and WHC for the excepted period) on Article II power inherently means that he relied on the word and power of the President. So it is a circle jerk of authorization. President says it’s okay, and the AG says it’s okay because the President says it’s okay.
This is really the same thing Marcy is saying, just viewed from a different angle. Either way, this is so patently legally spurious and specious that it is breathtaking. And, as EW noted, there is evidence in the Congressional record that the senior leadership of the DOJ could find no valid legal basis other than the President’s say so. And as long as the current AG will advise the court that this is what happened, immunity is given. Again this is what EW said. It is still simply stunning. Even after the three weeks or whatever we having been discussing this standard.
One more point. I fibbed in the post where I said Jenna’s bender-induced authorization had to be written. THe bill doesn’t even say THAT.
That’s good, bc McCaffrey the MilleniaLab’s writing isn’t too legible.
I find it really, really, really interesting that “immunity” begins on September 11, 2001. The President was having his sorry butt flown all over the country on that day…wasn’t he??? There was no decision made that day that wasn’t “in the works” before that day.
I call BS.
Heck, it could’ve been Barney from his email account for all we know.
If they’d told us how cheaply they could be bought, we could have bought all of them. Or at least enough to have made a difference last year.
g*dd*mned m*th*rf*king c*cks*ckers.
Barney knows more about the internet than McSame?
I could sell you some vowels, at least. Cheap.
No, Comey found substantial evidence against warrantless wiretapping, and he found nothing supporting the opposing position. He left the loophole that a constitutional scholar might find evidence that he hadn’t.
Barney doesn’t like wiretapping. The press keeps trying to figure out what he’s saying to the gals in the kitchen. Blowing his cover.
So it wasn’t Barney.
All decisions were made in the bunker that day by “you know who”, and needless to say, but in the spirit of truthiness, all decisions from that day forward too were made by “you know who” either from within the bunker or a certain man-sized safe.
Junya just imagines that he’s put crayon to paper.
Marcy,
I wonder how many Democrats are willing to vote for this thing because they think that ultimately the Supreme Court will throw out a lot of it? i.e. its like a “free” vote. Is there any prospect that much of this stuff won’t pass muster in the courts? Or is retro-active immunity a genie that you can never put back in the bottle?
Yes, well, in spite of that heinous error, I was able to navigate the issue. I will note, however, that you caused me to put in far more legal effort than was expended by the Administration in the process described above. Five seconds of my life I shall never get back.
Oh, Junya put crayons to paper all right. What he’s imagining (and doesn’t seem to realize that it’s all imagination) is that he wrote something important and worth reading. I bet Darth keeps telling him that he’s doing a Really Good Job, George.
I think once its out it would set precedent?
I don’t know.
I think the chances this will be appealed and thrown out are much greater now that a District Court, rather than FISC, will do the fig leaf review. ACLU and EFF have enough competent lawyers to make a decent bid for a higher review.
But I don’t think it’s anywhere near as sure a thing as MCA was–that was not only clearly unconstitutional, but also had a clear track for judicial review. Because of the many layers of state secrets and immunity involved here, you’re really gambling if you think 1) it’ll get to Kennedy and 2) he’ll vote in our favor.
“because the head of the executive branch determined that it was appropriate to do, that that meant for purposes of those in the executive branch it was legal.
I disagreed with that conclusion.”
I see.
EPued
Scott Horton has a great read over at his site “No Comment” on the FISA issues!
head of the executive branch…
Where’s actBlue? The idea of a separate legal standard for the executive branch plays right into the argument against a two-tiered legal system.
Buffy: “We just became an Army. We just declared war”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC_7Z08-960
But in the world of feeble minded, lackey type stooge sycophants, Gonzales is top notch.
-G
This is what I am talking about:
That is exactly my point. Plus, it proves Bush approved.
“for purposes of those in the executive branch it was legal.”
– But I don’t think it’s anywhere near as sure a thing as MCA was–that was not only clearly unconstitutional, but also had a clear track for judicial review. –
Or said another way, when you’re locked up in jail, and your contention is that the jailer has no basis for detention, there isn’t any question about “standing.” You are in the jail. The EVIDENCE that you are in jail, is that you are in jail.
Contrasted with secret surveillance. Where, if you don’t know you’ve been snooped six ways to Sunday, has your reasonable expectation of privacy been invaded? Never mind that to get in court, you have to have EVIDENCE. Where’s the evidence that you were snooped? And after that, you have to prove there was inadequate basis — the bad guys are going to argue they were wrongly surveiled, too.
Right. I agree. Couldn’t be more clear that the theory establishes some kind of legal exceptional ism.
BINGO
Even al-Haramain, which had proof, had it taken away.
Thanks, as always, for your contributions, cboldt.
Not any more apparently.
I called Sen. Inouye’s office today and was told he was ‘researching’ the bill and hadn’t made a decision yet… I’m not hopeful one iota since he voted for it last August… However, the aide said it was the #1 topic from his constituents…!
This was to LS@50
I wish I had collected the Democratic comments about Gonzales, bc I do think it might be a reasonable tactic: remind Democrats how much they think Gonzales is a hack, and ask them whether we really ought to be subject tho his decisions.
Given the way the Bush DOJ has operated would this not only give neocon Mukasey the role of certify the program but also to delegate the certification process to one of Monica Podlings?
Yeah, they are definitely after some kind of exceptionalism…except for this..except for that…except for the law!!
hope they go up against Barry The Privacy Slayer
Hmmm…should be interesting…or not.
Well we all live under the same laws. Unlock the prison doors and set them all free. Beamish me up Scotty.
I don’t know.
I think the chances this will be appealed and thrown out are much greater now that a District Court, rather than FISC, will do the fig leaf review. ACLU and EFF have enough competent lawyers to make a decent bid for a higher review.
My sense is that retroactive immunity, once granted in the criminal arena, can’t be “put back into the bottle”, because once criminal immunity is passed, any future prosecution would necessarily be based upon an impermissible ex-post facto law.
If a later congress overturns the coming *civil* immunity, I don’t see the same problem.
Some possibility of statute of limitations problems might remain as to future civil cases, though.
um…i think you do have some ready and willing research assistants if only you would give the word and point us in the right direction….
That would be a potent angle, EW! *g*
Woo Hoo My congress Anna Eschoo called me and left a message saying she had called earlier to invite us to a phone town hall. Damm I missed it! She also asked us to visit her web site and check out her stances on the issues and this is what I found about her stand on FISA:
# # #
A most excellent read indeed!
Question: Is Rick Noriega still running against Cornyn? Or is Mark Udall the opponent? I’m confused.
from dday at Digby’s:
may I offer a qualified “w00t!”?
Hmmm. Good suggestion. I’ll do a post for first thing tomorrow. But in the meantime, if your Senator is wavering, try to find their very worst statement on AGAG.
The statements in question would probably come from around May to June of last year, when Dems tried to censor Gonzales.
Fuck, these guys could’ve given lessons to Nixon and Hoover. Can you imagine if Nixon had tried to make COINTELPRO legal after it was exposed? And I’m guessing COINTELPRO’s nowhere near as big as what the Bush admin’s been up to.
I think there is a reasonable chance there are 5 votes to hold the retroactive legalization of warrantless wiretapping unconstitutional. The Boumedienne opinion seems to turn on a separation of powers argument, that you can’t remove constitutional rights by stripping courts of jurisdiction. It looks like at least those five Justices are not impressed by the Scalia jeremiad, and anyway, many won’t die if telecoms are held liable, except for the part about losing money..
I’m holding my breath.
But you have to get there first. Granted, we’d be going through the 9th. But there are any number of reasons to throw the case out. ACLU’s lawyers are smart, but no one has had to try to do this before.
she voted for the paa extension in feb (the defeat of this extension is what i think derailed the passage of the senate intelligence committee bill). if you get a chance, ask her why.
Well, right. And even if the enabling legislation to reverse (which I think is extremely unlikely) contained a tolling exception, or some other statute workaround was devised, would you not run head first into the wall of issue determination, res judicata?
Dugg
The FISA “compromise” passed by the house is an abomination
We have lost control of our government, if indeed we ever had it
Evening Firepups. Hi EW.
Enjoying our NYC visit.
i’ll give it a woot
Modernization is still BS
Where in the Constitution does it say the President has authority to determine what is legal?
Well, I think you just keep appealing on Constitutional grounds. I don’t remember any efforts to strip courts of jurisdiction to hear constitutional issues by statute, but I certainly am no expert in this.
I all ready did Neuro but keep up the great digging :>)
sounds good. also helps to have something semi-productive to do with all the rage. thanks.
EW, how about Fredo’s testimony on 7/24/07 before the Senate Judiciary Committee?
YouTube has the CSPAN capture of this. There are 32 YouTube parts of this and the 1st one starts here.
And before you do, find a quote of her condemning Alberto Gonzales.
I get the feeling that FISA warrants are only applied for when there is a recognized likelihood that resulting intelligence will be used at trial. I’d like to move beyond feeling, but I’m short on facts.
It’s in the expanded version of Article II that they only give to certain “select” civics students in high school.
I’m attending a Jeff-Jack Day dinner for Alexandria, VA Dems on Thursday eve. John Conyers will be speaking. I’m planning on asking him to, now that Kommisars Hoyer and Pelosi have decided to rewrite laws without his input from HJC, at least hold a hearing to see if we can determine when this wiretapping started (e.g., what happened in the time period between 1/20/01 and 9/11/01) and maybe subpoena the FISC to see what the basis for rulings in 2007 was that caused pure foreign-to-foreign wiretapping by the NSA to be found illegal under FISA.
Any other (or better) questions for the Honorable Chairman? Maybe he’s pissed he’s been thrown under the bus and can be convinced to cause mischief.
Night all thanks for all the excellent posts!
I saw that too. If this is delayed until after the 4th we need to be out there rabble rousing during the 4th of July weekend telling people that if the Senate votes for FISA they will have fewer rights come the next 4th of July.
I think we also need to picket every local telecom we can find. Considering they are bribing our Senators to vote against our rights I think they need to feel some heat. We’ll let them know that they may be spying on us but we KNOW what they are doing too. We might get some local news coverage (they love covering things when Corp. America is threatened by protesters) that might get even more people to call the Senate who might not have been paying attention to this crisis.
What do you guys think?
First, I think tolling is inevitable, and wouldn’t need any workaround, because one of the primary motives of the Govt’s actions were in furtherance of keeping the project secret - so the limitation date would be automatically tolled - to begin only at the point at which it should reasonable have been known that the wrong had been committed.
As to res judicata - that assumes a *final* judicial determination that the program was in fact legal (as opposed to the present bill’s language assertion [a legislative assertion] that immunity is available just because *someone* told them that it was legal). imo, the issue wouldn’t be determined until a court, most likely the Supremes, determines the *actual* legality of the program.
obviously, ymmv.
This bill is a bill. It is not a Constitutional Amendment. It can’t trump the Constitution, anymore than ruling out Habeas Corpus, without a Constitutional Amendment could stand.
The Constitution stands. It rules. The 4th Amendment is clear. It can’t be interpreted differently without an Amendment to the Constitution, which isn’t going to happen.
What stands between us and tyranny is the SCOTUS ruling on whether domestic spying is a violation of the 4th Amendment…perhaps that is why they want to wait until 2009…I sure as heck don’t know. The Immunity part is clearly Obstruction of Justice. It is about stopping lawsuits that could involve members of Congress perhaps.
The new FISA “bill” is unconstitutional and will be stricken down….someday.
look for a quote from Anna Eschoo before looking for my own senators? (just trying to make sure i have the priorities straight - the only other fisa thing i have cooking is a diary on house kabuki since august).
I am having a really hard time finding a quote where Domenici condemns Gonzales. Go figure. I guess I should focus on Bingaman.
I am not certain on this at all, but there may also be a profound difference in the standard of analysis applied to the FISA consideration as opposed to the Boumediene consideration by the SCOTUS. This is part and parcel of what I keep yammering about on the difference between a liberty removal claim versus a civil damage claim. What standard is applied by the justices is critical, and if one (liberty) is strict scrutiny and the other (FISA) is rational basis; I think that SCOTUS won’t set aside like they did in Boumediene.
Let’s hope that Scalia, Alito, Thomas or Roberts has a skeleton in their closet where they get arrested and convicted of some crime so that Obama can replace them. Any investigative reporters out there working this? lol
Here is one with a list of all members briefed. 25-03-01-11-5-06
http://intelligence.house.gov/.....091807.pdf
CHS has Late Nite
Hence the wait until 2009.
They can be impeached for misconduct, but you know that ain’t gonna happen.
The easier way would be to simply expand the court; it does not have to be only nine.
Aaah… The truth comes out…