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	<title>Comments on: The Sun Always Rises</title>
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		<title>By: Leen</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80613</link>
		<dc:creator>Leen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Funny&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny</p>
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		<title>By: Sara</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80489</link>
		<dc:creator>Sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 10:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Really sorry to tell everyone, but FISA is not even a tenth of it, as I discovered during my week off the net.  Combination of a few days away and a damn case of “Sick Computer Syndrome.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Anyhow — I have a book for everyone to read who feels passionate about this, one which will send you to the nearest bridge to check for a jumping off spot, — when your computer gets sick computer syndrome, you revert to old style, and you read a book.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“Spies for Hire: The Secret World of Intelligence Outsourcing” by Tim Shorrock, Simon and Schuster, 2008 is just what you need. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Forget learning obscure languages — CIA and NSA have spent billions on a corporate contract that translates everything.  They have a long term contract with the corporate outsource — they didn’t buy the softwear, they just lease it, and the product does not belong to the Government (that’s us), but it belongs to the contractor.  In other words, it is probably beyond the reach of a congressional subpoena or a court order.  (At least that was how it was contracted.) And no oversight was the intent. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;70% of CIA and NSA’s current budgets are for contractors — very little other than contract management is done in house any more.  In fact at the current time a majority of the Presidential daily briefings are written by outside contractors.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Shorrock makes the point that this “outsourcing” did not begin with Bush, it really began with Gore and Clinton, with Gore really in the lead.  It is just that Bush took the basic idea and took it to the sky.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;According to Tim Shorrock, there is the beginning of a push back from Congress, but that is not really possible till the next administration and a congress that is more democratic, and in particular, some sort of real movement from the populace that demands changes in the core areas.  While right now FISA may seem to us to be a core area, it may not be, and in fact Nancy Pelosi may have gotten a couple of hooks in with this agreement that could serve her well in the next congress.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The first step, according to Shorrock is law that defines what is a core Governmental Responsibility, and what is not really — and according to him, we do not have such a bright line at this juncture, and getting one would be step one.  That means not just what communications Government can tap, but what is done with them once tapped — who owns, who has custody, can Congress govern the use of such?  Apparently Shorrock believes this has to become settled law before other things can be done — and he offers up description of at least the initial outline of what Pelosi and her chair of Intelligence, Reyes, have introduced as language that has passed the House, but is stuck in the Senate with a threatened Fillibuster, and a promised Veto by Bush.  It is a little less about the 4th and 10th amendment than it is the right of ownership to the Intellectual Property for which the Government — through the intelligence agencies — have contracted.  (it may be that some of the “give-up’s” in the FISA bill regarding immunity also have the language that will become the basis for the “take back” of all this intellectual property from the Intelligence Industrial Complex, once she has a straight shot at a bill, and a President who will sign it.)  For instance, right now the Government really doesn’t have the ability to take someone who is clearly not a terrorist off the “no-fly” list, because making that list is outsourced, and the Government doesn’t own it, the Corporation that has the contract for the softwear owns the intellectual product.  (Poor Senator Kennedy, apparently he is still on the list, and has to flash some sort of permission slip everytime he wants to board a plane.)  So it is so much more than E-Mail and phone calls — it is everything, bank transactions, what you buy, sell, trade, What you read, religious preferences, food preferences, (apparently one huge contract involved looking for people who bought middle eastern foods — I immediately went out to my local Iranian Grocery Store and bought ten pounds of Basmati Rice, and some spices.)  charity preferences, sports you like or participate in, and of course your politics.  Everything.  They are spending billions collecting this information on the Intelligence Budget’s dime, and then it becomes the property of the corporations that collect and process it.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Sherrock’s example of “processing” is one contractor who demonstrates a software program that can parse “Moby Dick” in ten seconds….and yes, deal with the symbolism.  And it can do it in perhaps 100 languages, mostly fairly obscure ones.  But we (citizens) don’t own the software, and we don’t really own the product, even though we paid for the contractor.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Sherrock’s claim is that most of this “outsourcing” was actually designed to avoid both congressional oversight of Intelligence, and any legal, or court intervention. Correction has to involve drawing the bright line as to what is Core Governmental, and what may be just supportive contracting, and bringing it properly under regulation and oversight.  He raises the question as to how far all this extends — for instance are Cheney’s maps of Oil deposits created by a contractor working for a Government Agency properly public property — or do they belong to the contractor?  Are materials on Global Warming the property of all — or just the contracted analyist’s Corporation which collected them?  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This doesn’t mean I am not disappointed in the seeming cave in on FISA, and TelCo Immunity, but Sherrock has convinced me that the issue is much larger, and that we need to comprehend the scope as we act.  FISA and TelCo Immunity is the little issue — as Sherrock describes it, Pelosi is playing for much bigger stakes.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really sorry to tell everyone, but FISA is not even a tenth of it, as I discovered during my week off the net.  Combination of a few days away and a damn case of “Sick Computer Syndrome.”</p>
<p>Anyhow — I have a book for everyone to read who feels passionate about this, one which will send you to the nearest bridge to check for a jumping off spot, — when your computer gets sick computer syndrome, you revert to old style, and you read a book.  </p>
<p>“Spies for Hire: The Secret World of Intelligence Outsourcing” by Tim Shorrock, Simon and Schuster, 2008 is just what you need. </p>
<p>Forget learning obscure languages — CIA and NSA have spent billions on a corporate contract that translates everything.  They have a long term contract with the corporate outsource — they didn’t buy the softwear, they just lease it, and the product does not belong to the Government (that’s us), but it belongs to the contractor.  In other words, it is probably beyond the reach of a congressional subpoena or a court order.  (At least that was how it was contracted.) And no oversight was the intent. </p>
<p>70% of CIA and NSA’s current budgets are for contractors — very little other than contract management is done in house any more.  In fact at the current time a majority of the Presidential daily briefings are written by outside contractors.  </p>
<p>Shorrock makes the point that this “outsourcing” did not begin with Bush, it really began with Gore and Clinton, with Gore really in the lead.  It is just that Bush took the basic idea and took it to the sky.  </p>
<p>According to Tim Shorrock, there is the beginning of a push back from Congress, but that is not really possible till the next administration and a congress that is more democratic, and in particular, some sort of real movement from the populace that demands changes in the core areas.  While right now FISA may seem to us to be a core area, it may not be, and in fact Nancy Pelosi may have gotten a couple of hooks in with this agreement that could serve her well in the next congress.  </p>
<p>The first step, according to Shorrock is law that defines what is a core Governmental Responsibility, and what is not really — and according to him, we do not have such a bright line at this juncture, and getting one would be step one.  That means not just what communications Government can tap, but what is done with them once tapped — who owns, who has custody, can Congress govern the use of such?  Apparently Shorrock believes this has to become settled law before other things can be done — and he offers up description of at least the initial outline of what Pelosi and her chair of Intelligence, Reyes, have introduced as language that has passed the House, but is stuck in the Senate with a threatened Fillibuster, and a promised Veto by Bush.  It is a little less about the 4th and 10th amendment than it is the right of ownership to the Intellectual Property for which the Government — through the intelligence agencies — have contracted.  (it may be that some of the “give-up’s” in the FISA bill regarding immunity also have the language that will become the basis for the “take back” of all this intellectual property from the Intelligence Industrial Complex, once she has a straight shot at a bill, and a President who will sign it.)  For instance, right now the Government really doesn’t have the ability to take someone who is clearly not a terrorist off the “no-fly” list, because making that list is outsourced, and the Government doesn’t own it, the Corporation that has the contract for the softwear owns the intellectual product.  (Poor Senator Kennedy, apparently he is still on the list, and has to flash some sort of permission slip everytime he wants to board a plane.)  So it is so much more than E-Mail and phone calls — it is everything, bank transactions, what you buy, sell, trade, What you read, religious preferences, food preferences, (apparently one huge contract involved looking for people who bought middle eastern foods — I immediately went out to my local Iranian Grocery Store and bought ten pounds of Basmati Rice, and some spices.)  charity preferences, sports you like or participate in, and of course your politics.  Everything.  They are spending billions collecting this information on the Intelligence Budget’s dime, and then it becomes the property of the corporations that collect and process it.  </p>
<p>Sherrock’s example of “processing” is one contractor who demonstrates a software program that can parse “Moby Dick” in ten seconds….and yes, deal with the symbolism.  And it can do it in perhaps 100 languages, mostly fairly obscure ones.  But we (citizens) don’t own the software, and we don’t really own the product, even though we paid for the contractor.  </p>
<p>Sherrock’s claim is that most of this “outsourcing” was actually designed to avoid both congressional oversight of Intelligence, and any legal, or court intervention. Correction has to involve drawing the bright line as to what is Core Governmental, and what may be just supportive contracting, and bringing it properly under regulation and oversight.  He raises the question as to how far all this extends — for instance are Cheney’s maps of Oil deposits created by a contractor working for a Government Agency properly public property — or do they belong to the contractor?  Are materials on Global Warming the property of all — or just the contracted analyist’s Corporation which collected them?  </p>
<p>This doesn’t mean I am not disappointed in the seeming cave in on FISA, and TelCo Immunity, but Sherrock has convinced me that the issue is much larger, and that we need to comprehend the scope as we act.  FISA and TelCo Immunity is the little issue — as Sherrock describes it, Pelosi is playing for much bigger stakes.</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80414</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:52:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80414</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yeah I watched it.  Freaking got up to watch it live, and it wasn’t on and there is no other earthly reason for me to be up at 4:30 in the morning.  Then I slept in until 10:30 and it was already underway.  Arrrgh!  Little boring in a way, I expected a more exciting go of it.  I cannot believe FIA didn’t order Kimi to pit with that exhaust piece flailing around held on by a sensor wire.  It’s good to be Ferrari I guess….&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah I watched it.  Freaking got up to watch it live, and it wasn’t on and there is no other earthly reason for me to be up at 4:30 in the morning.  Then I slept in until 10:30 and it was already underway.  Arrrgh!  Little boring in a way, I expected a more exciting go of it.  I cannot believe FIA didn’t order Kimi to pit with that exhaust piece flailing around held on by a sensor wire.  It’s good to be Ferrari I guess….</p>
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		<title>By: Drumman</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80404</link>
		<dc:creator>Drumman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:20:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80404</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;bmaz were you able to watch the f1 race? it was an alright race Kimi lucked out hie exhaust problem was not worse but everybody finished looking forward to silverstone&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bmaz were you able to watch the f1 race? it was an alright race Kimi lucked out hie exhaust problem was not worse but everybody finished looking forward to silverstone</p>
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		<title>By: 4jkb4ia</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80380</link>
		<dc:creator>4jkb4ia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80380</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;This is why it was probably smarter to call the Senate office to start with, but I thought Glenn knew what he was doing.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is why it was probably smarter to call the Senate office to start with, but I thought Glenn knew what he was doing.</p>
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		<title>By: 4jkb4ia</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80378</link>
		<dc:creator>4jkb4ia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:39:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80378</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It makes you really, really sad to know that the people are supposed to be the last line of defense, and they do not know what is being done. Even I do not fully know what is being done because I didn’t read the bill yet. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I don’t even know if someone talked to me, even to say, “You of all people should know to speak out loudly and criticize people when they deserve it”, because I knew that was what it was going to be. I imagine many people who never liked him showed up, but I hope they did not have the chutzpah to say that Hillary would have done any better.&lt;br /&gt;
I did not say what he did was right folks!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It makes you really, really sad to know that the people are supposed to be the last line of defense, and they do not know what is being done. Even I do not fully know what is being done because I didn’t read the bill yet. </p>
<p>I don’t even know if someone talked to me, even to say, “You of all people should know to speak out loudly and criticize people when they deserve it”, because I knew that was what it was going to be. I imagine many people who never liked him showed up, but I hope they did not have the chutzpah to say that Hillary would have done any better.<br />
I did not say what he did was right folks!</p>
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		<title>By: 4jkb4ia</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80377</link>
		<dc:creator>4jkb4ia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80377</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Also I wanted to say that the very quick turnaround of this bill in the House took away some of Obama’s chance to effect the outcome. As EW said, we will have DiFi for this bill. We will also certainly have Lieberman. So the chance of passing the bill comes down to whether it requires 60 votes. But Obama has to read the bill, or have a staff member do it for him, and deal with the ravenous press corps who have not shown shining interest in any kind of policy, in 24 hours. Not that the public financing announcement could not have waited until next week.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also I wanted to say that the very quick turnaround of this bill in the House took away some of Obama’s chance to effect the outcome. As EW said, we will have DiFi for this bill. We will also certainly have Lieberman. So the chance of passing the bill comes down to whether it requires 60 votes. But Obama has to read the bill, or have a staff member do it for him, and deal with the ravenous press corps who have not shown shining interest in any kind of policy, in 24 hours. Not that the public financing announcement could not have waited until next week.</p>
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		<title>By: 4jkb4ia</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80376</link>
		<dc:creator>4jkb4ia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80376</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks bmaz. This is why Shabbos is so important, although I did not prepare a maximally festive meal.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks bmaz. This is why Shabbos is so important, although I did not prepare a maximally festive meal.</p>
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		<title>By: PJEvans</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80359</link>
		<dc:creator>PJEvans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 03:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80359</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I just sent a slightly edited version of your proposed amendments to my senators. The DINO, I’m sure, will do nothing constructive. The other one will probably vote against the bill - I can hope, yes?&lt;br /&gt;
I very deliberately left the reasons for the amendments off; I want to see them figure it out, or better yet, be dim enough to assume it’s straight-up clarification. Also, I’m afraid that giving them reasons for those two proposals would result in the Rs finding out ahead of time and scuttling things.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;(No, I &lt;em&gt;don’t&lt;/em&gt; trust these people.)&lt;br /&gt;
I also said that it’s up to them if they want to get out of the hole they’ve put themselves in, where their approval rating is well below used car salesmen.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just sent a slightly edited version of your proposed amendments to my senators. The DINO, I’m sure, will do nothing constructive. The other one will probably vote against the bill &#8211; I can hope, yes?<br />
I very deliberately left the reasons for the amendments off; I want to see them figure it out, or better yet, be dim enough to assume it’s straight-up clarification. Also, I’m afraid that giving them reasons for those two proposals would result in the Rs finding out ahead of time and scuttling things.</p>
<p>(No, I <em>don’t</em> trust these people.)<br />
I also said that it’s up to them if they want to get out of the hole they’ve put themselves in, where their approval rating is well below used car salesmen.</p>
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		<title>By: Hmmm</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80345</link>
		<dc:creator>Hmmm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 00:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/21/the-sun-always-rises/#comment-80345</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;WRT why the House D leadership caved, I could buy the idea that there is knowledge of a forthcoming attack.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In which case, with all this frickin’ hoovered communication contents stored in escrow, why don’t they just go out and STOP the damn thing with legwork? If this question seems familiar it’s because it’s the &lt;strong&gt;Bin Laden Determined To Attack Inside US&lt;/strong&gt; scenario, all over again.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Huh… Actually… &lt;em&gt;if&lt;/em&gt; they know there’s going to be an attack, and &lt;em&gt;if&lt;/em&gt; they &lt;i&gt;can’t &lt;/i&gt;go out and stop it even with the benefit of all the expansive, massive, illegal snooping they’ve already got in place…&lt;em&gt; then wouldn’t that be proof positive that IT DOESN’T WORK&lt;/em&gt;?  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Pass me a Pepcid, wouldya?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WRT why the House D leadership caved, I could buy the idea that there is knowledge of a forthcoming attack.</p>
<p>In which case, with all this frickin’ hoovered communication contents stored in escrow, why don’t they just go out and STOP the damn thing with legwork? If this question seems familiar it’s because it’s the <strong>Bin Laden Determined To Attack Inside US</strong> scenario, all over again.</p>
<p>Huh… Actually… <em>if</em> they know there’s going to be an attack, and <em>if</em> they <i>can’t </i>go out and stop it even with the benefit of all the expansive, massive, illegal snooping they’ve already got in place…<em> then wouldn’t that be proof positive that IT DOESN’T WORK</em>?  </p>
<p>Pass me a Pepcid, wouldya?</p>
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