Login HereWell, we got Mr. Obama's reply to all of us. Everybody has a lot to say to Mr. Obama. Here is the place. Now is the time. Trash talk is allowed. I heard the Lakers, er Celtics just won something. Also heard Curt Schilling is done, how the Sawx gonna win without him? And hey circus freak, the French Grand Prix is this weekend. Migny-Cours is the track? Chat away.
Don’t Tell Your Momma, Tell ObamaBy: bmaz Friday June 20, 2008 6:04 pm |
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Barry the privacy slayer: Fitz you.
You Wheelers and Wheelies be good and righteously outraged folks. I am going to be out for a while, and can’t find Marcy; but I hear there is a pile of Beamish containers in Ann Arbor. Be nice; don’t wreck the house. Adios Amigos!
trash talk! bmaz!
Zero Sum Game
Our strongest tool remains going after those who vote wrong regardless of party. Donna E is the proof of that! We must work as hard against the blue dogs as the rethugs!
My unsubscribe note to Obama’s emails:
Your willingness to support telcomm immunity is not change. It’s the same old sh*t. You asked me to believe, but in your first opportunity to defend the constitution, you chose corporate interests.
Good question. Will have to run down to Fenway and hang out at the players’s parking lot and ask Dice-Kay, and Beckett, and Lester, and if I can get through the jig-dancing Irish fans, Jonathon the Closer how the hell they have been managing without him and what they plan to do going forward?
More seriously, with all that time on his hand, will Curt campaign for McSame as he did for Bush in New Hampshire? Will it matter?
Ta ta from Titletown, as our Mayor calls the capital of the BlueBayState.
Let the trashing begin. I’ll check back later.
BMAZ, Marcy and all you other lawyers out there - I listened to Countdown with KO talking to John Dean about today’s debacle and Dean brought up an interesting point. He said that he could find nothing in the bill that gave the Telcoms any immunity from criminal prosecution, only immunity from civil actions such as the current ones in the system. They then went on to muse about a future administration potentially taking action in a criminal way.
What do you all think??
As long as it isn’t the NBA - I had more than enough of that this week at work.
Barry, if you want our help when you need it, you should have helped us this week. We have really long memories here.
Spears longer than our memories, as someone once wrote about the Britons and the Saxons and Normans. (When the Normans invaded, the Anglo-Saxons had no place to go, because the mountains were full of Britons with spears longer than their memories. Think centuries of being pissed off with the rude neighbors ….)
I used the same ‘communications tool’ that came to my email as well. Not a nickel for that guy. No respect for the Bill of MY Rights(G-Damn it).
Fantasy.
Obama is telling you how valuable you are.
You make a stink, but you are going to vote for him anyway because he will be a benign dictator.
at least better than McBush.
eh?
This move is to pander to the torture cretins who probably won’t vote for him anyway.
Anyone who badmouthed hillary for being a triangulator should be able to recognize this shit. same old shit.
Bmaz, I think a fair paraphrase would be something like Dr. Alexander Graham Bell reportedly shouted, Mr. Watson, please stop tapping this line, and that is how modern folks figured out how easy electronics make duplicating images, mere patterns of electrons, and radiowaves. Barack Obama is the best opportunity to address modern times in this election.
My sports politics are comparably as eccentric, having been born in Boston and going to college there, when Celts play is the only time I root against Lakers.
As for the balancing of the ew reply, there is a lot more than the two issues today. Kucinich could write a longer list, or simply help on the stump. It is an election campaign that is going well, the best news in a lot of recent years.
Say, who won that championship?
And the election, it is funny to have a race in which the AZ Republic has no candidate, their reporter Kristin Mayes is banned from the bandwagon, NYT’s Elisabeth Bumiller is barred from the campaign van, as if newsmedia sequestration could succeed in obscuring village information regarding the oposition candidate.
Clinton Endorses Obama
I called the Obama campaign to complain about Obama’s FISA cave. The person who took my call said she had been taking calls like mine for 3 straight hours. I asked about procedures for getting my donation back.
Jeebus, it isn’t as if we were trying to plunder the nation’s resources for our own advantage or get an unseemly share of the nations wealth by fraudulent means. We are trying to get the constitutional protections for citizens restored. Are we asking too much?
On KO tonight, John Dean and KO said that the terms in the bill apply only to civil suits, not criminal suits and that Obama might be planning to prosecute them once he is in office. Is that feasible?
Former Fed asked the same thing up above. I think it’s an excellent question.
Dean on Olbermann tonite.
drational @ 11 doesn’t think much of the idea, but “who knows”?
Any chance of “criminal conspiracy to violate FISA” prosecutions?
I’m giving Obama some leeway on this, because he’s the Presidential candidate. I’d do the same for HRC (or any other Dem), if the roles were reversed. Presidential candidates always have to campaign to the middle.
I can’t speak to the criminal legal issues that Dean raised (and I’m a real big Dean fan). I certainly hope Dean was correct. Turley last night imho was much better on the sheer venality of the Hoyer and others in the Democratic leadership. They don’t want us to find out how completely complicit they were in helping Bush shred the Constitution. Olbermann opened the door and I was disappointed in how weakly Dean responded.
I agree that Dean seems reticent to really jump in sometimes. Prof Turley is a pleasure to listen to.
We need to look on the bright side — at least that is what my mother always told me at times like this.
Should this bill pass the Senate and get signed by the Preznit in Chief, why, there is no end to the mischief that we can enjoy. When we get hauled up before the local magistrate, all we have to do is cite some obscure opinion that was supposedly rendered that says it is okay if the Preznit says so, but that they cannot see due to “national security.” It will take that magistrate the rest of his life to figure out that it does not really exist or is a bunch of hoakum.
In the meantime, we get all kinds of chuckles laughing at the havoc we cause and the fun we had…
somebody call me an abulance…
I’m suffering from a schadenfreude overdose.
You wanted the Magical Unity Pony? You got it!
Of course, now that you understand that the “new politics” and ‘post-partisanship’ is really about creating a leadership vacuum, you’re all upset.
Well, suck it up….and suck up the fact that you’re support for an empty suit means that IF WE’RE LUCKY, McCain wins in November — because at least that way the Dems will be able to hold onto congress and win the white house in 2012. If we’re UNLUCKY, Obama skates into the white house on antipathy toward Bush — and not only does the GOP take over Congress and the White House by 2012…the Democratic party is discredited for years and years to come.
’m giving Obama some leeway on this, because he’s the Presidential candidate. I’d do the same for HRC (or any other Dem), if the roles were reversed. Presidential candidates always have to campaign to the middle.
THE MIDDLE is opposed to telecom immunity. This wasn’t about “running for president”, it was about the fact that the reason that slime like Pelosi and Reid were so eager to have Obama installed is that he promised them he wouldn’t try to tell them what to do.
And, in not taking a leadership position on FISA, he’s fulfulling that promise.
I mean, making this a campaign issue would be a brilliant move for Obama, because it would allow him to shed the elitist image, and talk like a populist — the old “giant corporattions aren’t above the law” schtick would work wonders for his image. But he’s NOT A LEADER.
The Beauty of This Move is that unless they screw it up, the Dems will be sitting in the tinted windowed van outside our homes. Put the fear of god into the freeper jackoffs who neglected their goldwater inheritance to worship the bush.
This shit is for 6 years, so listen to their squealey pig wah wah at the beginning of Obama’s second term when his DOJ is focused on white collar crime and tax evasion…..
it won’t be justice but it will be funny.
The Lakers SUCK.
I blame Bill Clinton’ penis for everything that’s happened since 2000. I call it the $600 billion dollar blow job and I think Gore has good reason to be pissed.
Barack disappoints me.
I go to Fenway when the Red Sox are NOT playing. I enjoy watching the grass grow. Somehow, it’s more interesting than baseball.
Where’s freepatriot? I need the company of someone whose trash talking makes me laugh.
Oh this isn’t the bitch fest thread? It’s the trash talk thread. Sorry.
A good thing happened this week. I met a classmate of EW who’s an entrepreneur and capitalist, Jeff Glass, a interesting guy. Wondered if EW knows him.
Aw, jeebus, who left the door open?
who’s the cat PJ?
Clinton endorses Obama.
At least the guy in the next cube (who was running his mouth about the games) was missing today.
He was missing Monday for jury duty (bitched and moaned Tuesday about how he couldn’t afford to take a week off; I can tell he’s never actually been stuck for more than a day, ’cause even before one day/one trial, the time was generally not consecutive days).
Runs his mouth a lot on everything where he thinks his opinion should matter to us. Mostly doesn’t matter. Mostly he’s just making noise for the sake of noise, AFAICT. Not real bright, for all that he thinks he’s an expert.
Paul, liberals need a big favor from HRC. Since Barack endorsed the blue dog Barrow in GA-12 against the liberal Regina Thomas. The primary is July 15. Can you use your contacts with HRC’s campaign to persuade her to get down to GA and help state Senator Thomas?
More like a concern troll.
Probably showed up because EW’s not here.
FYI, 128 Democrats voted against the FISA abomination. 105 voted in favor.
Here’s is the list of 128 Dems who voted against. I would invite everyone who has free long distance to call EACH of the 128. They are heroes and made the right vote today under difficult circumstances.
Abercrombie, Allen, Andrews, Baldwin, Becerra, Blumenauer, Brady (PA), Braley (IA), Capps, Capuano, Carnahan, Carson, Clarke, Clay, Cohen, Conyers
Costello, Courtney, Cummings, Davis (CA), Davis (IL), DeFazio, DeGette, Delahunt, DeLauro, Dingell, Doggett, Doyle, Edwards (MD), Ellison, Eshoo, Farr, Fattah, Filner, Foster, Frank (MA), Gonzalez, Grijalva, Hall (NY), Hare, Hill, Hinchey, Hirono, Hodes, Holt, Honda, Hooley, Inslee, Israel
Jackson (IL), Jackson-Lee (TX), Jefferson, Johnson (GA), Johnson (IL)
Johnson, E. B., Jones (OH), Kagen, Kaptur, Kennedy, Kilpatrick, Kucinich
Larsen (WA), Larson (CT), Lee, Levin, Lewis (GA), Loebsack, Lofgren, Zoe
Lynch, Maloney (NY), Markey, Matsui, McCollum (MN), McDermott, McGovern
McNulty, Meek (FL), Michaud, Miller (NC), Miller, George, Mollohan
Moore (WI), Moran (VA), Murphy (CT), Nadler, Napolitano, Neal (MA), Oberstar, Obey, Olver, Pallone, Pascrell, Pastor, Payne, Price (NC)
Rangel, Rothman, Roybal-Allard, Ryan (OH), Sánchez, Linda T.
Sanchez, Loretta, Sarbanes, Schakowsky, Schwartz, Scott (VA), Serrano
Shea-Porter, Slaughter, Solis, Speier, Sutton, Thompson (CA), Tierney
Towns, Tsongas, Udall (NM), Van Hollen, Velázquez, Walz (MN), Wasserman Schultz, Waters, Watson, Watt, Waxman, Weiner, Welch (VT), Wexler
Woolsey, Wu
The Democratic Leadersheep voted for power over accountability, even after seven years of the other party’s lawbreaking. Jack Balkin says that Obama supported this legislation because he’s the one who will use that power, even if the other guy broke the law to get it. Sounds plausible. He also calls this FISA legislation an “acceptable compromise”, “the best one can do under the situation.” I think he could not be more wrong.
http://balkin.blogspot.com/200.....ut-he.html
First, this is not a compromise. Even the GOP admits it got more than the President asked for. Second, NO legislation was needed at all. The few fixes that were actually useful could readily have been put off until the next Congress. If Bush refused, again, to accept a short term extension, if any were needed, then endangering the country to protect his and his corporate funders’ backsides would all be on his head, not the Democrats’.
Most importantly, delaying this legislation could well have avoided granting blanket immunity to the administration and telcos. It would have avoided legitimizing and institutionalizing programs that almost certainly violate the law, but which Congress tells us the President hasn’t disclosed to it. It sets a terrible precedent for other Bush administration lawbreaking and for legislation in general. The entryway signs on all the government buildings in DC now say, No Dogs or Accountability Allowed.
Having designated himself a Ring Bearer, Obama has done the impossible and reached the summit of Mt. Doom. Like many before him, he faltered. He chose not to toss the One Ring back into the fire. He’s sure that he’s the one who can use its powers for good. The Ring, and Mr. Cheney, are leering at his hubris.
bmaz hopefully Lewis can keep his car under control this race so we can have all the point leaders finish the race and of course being A Kimi fan I would like to see him repeat last years victory
Nope.
See, its all you Hillary-haters that need to go to Clinton and say “we’re sorry, we were a bunch of jackasses, and we really need your help now.”
She needs to hear that from YOU, because she’s KNOWS WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE YOU ARE, and that YOU WILL STAB HER IN THE BACK THE FIRST CHANCE YOU GET.
If I were her, I’d want to see you crawling on your hands and knees through broken glass before I did anything that you wanted — because right now she’s DOING WHAT YOU WANT, being a good little unity pony soldier — and she knows that you can’t be trusted.
Thanks for posting that. It’s important to show how active we are as voters by participating in the process of public praise and admonishment.
A courteous and professionally stated thank you is important. I might add, it would be nice to have a link to sign a Thank you note to all of them. I think the nea votes just might be surprised at the number of appreciative voters.
Aha! Next cube eh? Brutal.
If the President-to-be supports granting telcos civil immunity from suit, he’s not likely to tell his Attorney General to prosecute them. He could, of course, wholly revamp the so far undisclosed but presumably dramatically illegal programs, but why should he? This legislation shields them from scrutiny, public and impliedly Congressional and even judicial.
Congress is also institutionalizing its own status as steer, not bull - something one would ordinarily think would be painful, but which Mr. Hoyer and Ms. Pelosi both seem to be gliding through. Imagine how much more executive power the next President Bush will take.
Who ever imagined that the first day of summer 2008 would bring us a former WH spokesman showing some honesty and integrity about things that went badly wrong, while the Dem leadership caved to the very Preznit whose WH ‘can’t find’ 5,000,000 missing emails, invokes Exec Privilege to avoid Congressional subpoenas, and fires USAGs.
Scott McClellan = homer out of the ballpark.
Hoyer = I wouldn’t trust the guy to clean the toilets in upper decks of a ballpark.
Ditto the rest of the Dem ‘leadership’.
Truth: stranger than fiction.
The this is a must for your listening pleasure:
Drive-by Truckers - The President’s Penis Is Missing
As Bruce Fein said a while back, all these Bush-Cheney power grabs will be loaded guns left in the desk drawers of the Oval Office.
My previous comment was supposed to be in response to EoH @33.
Great idea! A thank you petition.
I posted the following message at the Obama web site tonight.
—————————————————
Please be informed that if Senator Obama persists in failing to stop the retroactive immunity provisions in the FISA bill in the Senate, your campaign will not be receiving any donations of money, energy, or ideas from me, from my domestic partner, from any of our Oakland CA neighbors, nor from any of our friends. In fact, about half of us are now seriously considering devoting our full energies to third-party candidates — just so we can live with a clear conscience.
We have seen the Senator’s statement promising to repeal retroactive immunity after taking office, and frankly are not impressed. For one thing, if the Senator’s not willing and able to keep his oath to the Constitution and keep faith with the public now, why in the world should we trust him to do so after receiving all the corrupting influences that come along with the world’s most powerful office? For another thing, what if the Senator does not become President, what do you think a President McCain will do if this bad FISA revision becomes the law of the land? The promise to fix it later is, frankly, an empty promise.
The time for leadership on retroactive immunity is now. Not next January. The Senator must know this.
If the Obama ‘08 team had made a calculation that retroactive immunity is just a fringe issue with no ability to hurt Senator Obama’s Presidential prospects, well… better think again. You’re losing a lot of folks with this one.
— Hmmm, Oakland CA.
P.S. Senator Obama can have my money, mailing address, phone number, and other information, just as soon as he gives me my Constitution back, with the Fourth Amendment intact.
while scotty McClellan was a pleasant suprise, no one should be the least but shocked that a Democratic Party leadership that decided that an empty suit was the best person to be the nominee of the party is giving us this FISA debacle.
The fact that Barack Obama isn’t leading on this is a FEATURE, not a defect, as far as Pelosi, Reid, Rockefeller, Hoyer, et al are concerned. They don’t want a Democratic LEADER in the White House, because a LEADER means that they lose their own power.
I mean, its not like we haven’t been hearing rumors about this for months — the same months that we sat back and watched as Clinton kicked Obama’s butt for the last three months, and the “party leaders” kept on greasing the skids for Obama. The people resonsible for the FISA debacle are the same people who made sure that Obama got the nomination….
So, it comes as no surprise to me that this happened.
great idea. Now, you could stop by my house — I accidentally stepped on a tube of toothpaste, and you seem to think you know how to put it back into the tube….
I hear ya. But the Senate part is still in the future. Fight on we must, else we deserve what we get.
– Fight on we must, else we deserve what we get. –
Turn this on its head. The Senate conclusion is foregone. They expect signs of public displeasure — pressure — being relieved via angry calls, etc. “If they are calling, they think we matter.”
What would they think if the calls suddenly stopped? Before they made the vote.
Would it help if I bit his finger? ; )
Have you ever been subjected to the silent treatment? It’s unnerving. It puts you in the position of uncertainty.
Congress probably BENEFITS from a low approval rating, in that it gets to hear WHY the public is pissed.
Friends, with every respect: The work will never stop.
– with every respect: The work will never stop. –
I’m not advocating that the work stop. I’m just pondering the effect of massive public dialog, that EXCLUDES expressing the sentiment to Congress.
And too - the thought is in the context where it’s clear Congress is determined to act, regardless of what the public “says.”
IOW, I don’t advocate cutting Congress out on ALL questions. Although I am intrigued by the reaction that might flow from a public that completely “dummies up.”
I’m still surprised at the magnitude of the political miscalculation.
On a cheering note, here’s an nice item for what might be termed “Civility Watch” — at Dan Abram’s MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21.....3#25274602
Abrams and Jonathon Alter call ‘bullshit’ on a radio host for taking single comments wildly out of context — it’s nice to see more people have the balls to face down the nutso behavior that takes single short comments completely out of context and waves them around like bloody shirts to incite a mob. As Alter points out, ‘it just degrades the whole [social environment]”. Enough, already!
I wish the Dems were thinking as clearly as Abrams and Alter.
Instead, the Dems have decided to cave to the likes of Bill O’Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, and their cadre of angry listeners who are always waiting for a bloody shirt to get upset over.
Dems miscalculated hugely.
It’s certainly an interesting idea. But it’s hard enough getting noticeable numbers of people to act at the same time; practically speaking, how would one get them to stop all at once? Also why would we think the D’s wouldn’t just treat silence as assent, as usual, especially since some other group will likely start squawking about something else at the same time?
I’m also thinking (WRT “the silent treatment”) that the compressed timeline of this FISA bill presents a unique opportunity to show contrast. The people are outspoken to the House, but ignore the Senate.
– practically speaking, how would one get them to stop all at once? –
I don’t think it’s possible,on short notice. And the idea may be worthless in practice for that reason. But in raw principle, if the public unified to give Congress “the silent treatment,” I think it would shock the shit out of them.
i posted this really long comment over at fdl, which i won’t be obnoxious enough to cross post here. but i’d love corrections etc.
it’s an update from earlier comments today where i attempt to answer the question: how many (and which) democrats deserve our support?
for the house, my tentative answer is 30.
Not exactly veto-proof, is it?
.
Yes, it reeks of dishonesty and deceptiveness.
The difficulty is in unifying the public. Political parties will game the action, and claim that lack of objection is the same as an expression of approval.
But seriously, if the rate of calls is 1,000/week on average, and it drops to 10/week - while action outside of Congress INCREASES, well, if I was in Congress, it’d make me nervous. Silence is a danger signal. Complaints are a signal that negotiation is possible.
lol, not quite.
but i’d rather be clear about what we’re up against.
Maybe a “Stop calling your Congressman” campaign, on the basis that it’s a waste of time and effort. Reinforce the low ratings. The time is really ripe for some radical deviation from the normal approach to the relationship between the people and Congress.
repressive governments claim legitimacy from voter turnout percentages. What if voter turnout in the US was 5%? If there really isn’t spit for difference between the parties, that sort of (low turnout) event would rock some socks.
Heh. Seriously tho, it’s a great project, and I don’t see any obvious errors there.
You do so much. Thank you.
Criminal prosecution of telcoms will never see the light of day. Even if the language of the final bill that is voted on by the Senate doesn’t prevent this,(the previously approved Senate bill does protect them from criminal liability) they will have documents in their defense which they will refuse to make public invoking State Secrets and to this moment State Secrets has been adopted by every federal appellate court in this country for any purpose it’s been invoked.
2008 FISA Bill Passed by House Yesterday
A big Friday nite shoutout to homeboy J. Bobby Flores OJJDP Admin who is being investigated by his own DOJ. Always fun to see DOJ who would feed their mommas to crocodiles and grin while doing so, eat one of their own.
This silent treatment idea is intriguing…interested to see what the experts think. You are an expert, so your opinion is most valuable, plus it sounds fun.
Got a link on the investigation please?
I was watching C-Span this morning after the FISA vote, when they were taking calls from D’s, R’s, and I’s, and I was struck by how uniform WAS the condemnation of the FISA bill across the political spectrum. Only one out of about 12 callers (a Republicon, of course) voiced approval of the bill. Several Republican callers said that they had been gravitating toward the Democratic Party for a while but now they weren’t sure where to go. I imagine those who self-select by watching and calling C-Span may be highly unrepresentative of the population at large, but it was still a bit encouraging hearing the callers’ reactions.
Heh. Well, “Silent treatment” in general doesn’t (and never will) happen, because people think bitching helps, plus they feel better/vindicated/vented for doing it.
As a matter of power politics, it doesn’t work because no side trusts the other, and both sides will ALWAYS attempt to mount or fake more visible support.
But if the people of both parties combine and decide to reject Congress, the silent treatment would blow their little fricking minds. Self-important people LIVE on complaints and praise. If nobody showed up at their town halls, ralleys, etc., they’d be lost.
– I imagine those who self-select by watching and calling C-Span may be highly unrepresentative of the population at large –
Many of the callers lie about their political affiliation. I think it’s a mistake to take C-span callers as a representative cross section of public sentiment.
Still, on the FISA issue, I agree that some of the callers were pissed GOP/conservatives, and that of interested observers, there is substantial alarm and anger.
Someone could propose setting up a Here’s How We Think You’re Going to Vote and Why time capsule (web page or blog thread) to be loaded with comments prior to the Senate vote. I wouldn’t know how to administer such a project, though.
I agree. What the callers had in common was that they were interested and for the most part, sounded very informed.
On the silent treatment idea, I think it would be ESSENTIAL to provide substitute venues for venting. The public needs to have some form of assurance that it’s thoughts are being expressed, even when Congress is ignoring the public.
I stopped communicating with Snowe after she excused the military on the Cole incident. I communicated my concerns before 9/11, and after 9/11 asked “NOW how do you justify half-assed vigilance?” She blamed the Navy.
By time capsule I mean, contents to be revealed after the vote.
Okay, so Steny and Harry and Nancy are trash. We 100% know that now.
But how can we still win some sort of victory on this? Well, Conyers might be a tad bit pissed that he was totally caught out of the loop on this. It seems to me that pressing him might be our only recourse in the rest of this Congress. He can still hold hearings on this, right? We need to press him to subpoena that FISC rulings that started this whole mess. Why did the FISC rule that pure foreign-to-foreign taps required warrants? [My guess is — because the dragnet that was being used to tap those calls was also entrapping domestic-to-foreign or even purely domestic communications as well.] And subpoena the telecoms — they can’t claim executive privilege, and have them produce the magic permission slips that are going to be used to throw all the lawsuits out.
Between Leahy and Conyers and Feingold and Dodd, maybe there are still people in our Congress with enough independence to get us some god-damned answers.
It would be nice if Mr Obama explained his position on this one. I too feel that the telecoms do not deserve immunity, Mr Obama feels differently and I will gladly listen to his reasons. The world is much more complex than the average american can comprehend and I am quite sure that he has reasons for his vote, now, lets hear them.
– Someone could propose setting up a Here’s How We Think You’re Going to Vote and Why –
I try to avoid speculating as to motivation and “why” — the probability of guessing right is small, and there is ZERO probability of proof.
But speculating which way the vote will go, and claiming that the result is foregone even if the margin is off by a few votes, goes a long way to justify giving Congress the silent treatment. Why bother talking to them if the result is the same regardless?
See the previous thread for Obama’s position statement on this. And about 400 impassioned comments, many of them the products of quite bright minds.
Funny, Sen. Clinton didn’t charge into this breach and prove her leadership either.
Shocked.
-G
If this is chage one can believe in, than you dissapoint.
I’m voing for Ralph Nader. He was correct. You a just but one head of the two headed corporate party.
Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.
Just to conclude - I feel an obligation to dump a bucket of water on my “silent treatment” idea. A significant number of people (sheep) are positively JAZZED by the leading celebrity-politicians.
It’s no more possible to quell them than it is to cause an empty house at a Miley Cyrus concert.
But in principle, the empty house is indeed unnerving.
And I’m flushing the time capsule.
Most Members of Congress want to see anecdotal evidence of actual harm caused by surveillance and information programs. Secrecy makes convincing evidence hard to come by.
I don’t think you appreciate your value in stopping the gaming that the pols have been doing. Instead of just being worried about what’s in the NYT’s, the WaPu, and their home state newspaper, their constitutents are getting much more reliable and highly specific information from segmenting sources.
I’ll agree, it’s tough to measure the value of the calls and emails, but how much cash did Steny send to Al Wynn? I don’t remember, but it’s a sign of how much they are feeling the heat. It’s also obvious from the timing that Hoyer and company put a lot of thought into the timing of this latest abomination. They wouldn’t have done that if they weren’t feeling heat from their constituents.
Thanks for the terrific work, I think it has real merit.
FWIW, I don’t know of any Democrat who stood up and said, “the leadership primarily wants this legislation, because they don’t want their complicity with the Bush administration to see the light of day.” If you evaluate “our support” from that perspective, it’s all a “sham.”
– I don’t think you appreciate your value in stopping the gaming that the pols have been doing. –
I very much respect the power of information, and the ability of informed criticism to cut bullshit off at the knees.
My ultimate objective is to encourage others to use the media (blogs especially) for leads, not for facts or conclusions; and to distrust the government to the point of ridicule.
But mostly, I comment to vent, and when I’m done with that, I quit.
Sure.
Flores Faces Criminal Investigation
I’m watching Scottie Mc n the rebroadcast of HJC. We’re down to the least senior questioner and so far no bomb shells. Scottie knows how to bob and weave by saying he had no direct conversations or he heard no conversations relevant to whaetever.
Cbolt –
I want to double check this. Didn’t the Senate version of the FISA bill extend immunity from criminal prosecution.
Isn’t their provision for revision of a final bill or does the senate now vote on this House passed bill since it’s the theoretical result of a compromise (which is in fact a capitulation)?
I did see that. Why does my radar tell me the guy is a pervert on top of being a shill?
It’s good to know that Jim Clyburn the highest ranking black member of the House has a Britney Spears level grasp of the FISA bill that the House passed and doesn’t even remotely d questions put to him based on Glenn Greenwald’s last three blogs, Feingold’s statement, or most importantly the limited lack of review of wiretapping or the components of it that the courts will now have or oversight will now have. Obama’s concept that IG’s will have control over iretap abuses is a ridiculous concept.
Also rxbusa, drational, Boo, and crikey whoever else I am missing
I have not watched Dean on KO. I think the late repeat is about to come on here in 20 minutes or so. I will watch it then. But I think I understand the question well enough to take a stab at it. Assuming civil is done, and if they sign this law I think it best to assume it is indeed done (hey, then if it turns out different it is gravy); then what about criminal.
John Dean is a brilliant legal mind, and I really mean that. I was a teenager, but I remember watching him in the Watergate hearings etc., and have seen him consistently since he has resurrected his career and persona. He has a first rate legal mind. That said, much like many law professors, I don’t think he has ever really practiced in the trenches, especially the criminal law ones. I don’t mean that as a slap, just an explanation. There are a boatload of things that high grade criminal defense lawyers bring up, point out, argue and otherwise pull out of their hats. There is a cornocopia of stuff to do just that with here.
First off, and I know I am a broken record with this sometimes, statute of limitations. For FISA crimes it is five years. No prosecution will even be possible until at least February 2009, so any acts occurring prior to February 2004 are out. Likely no investigation could be completed and charges filed until at best fall of 2009, so all act prior to fall 2004, essentially the whole Bush first term, are out.
Next, you have reasonable doubt. The fact that the United States Congress, who speaks for and represents the entire nation, not once, not twice, but three times ratified and sanctioned and gave their blessing to these acts (Protect America Act, extension of PAA, and now the Fisa Amendments Act) ratifies, sanctioned and agreed to these acts, sure sounds like a real good argument that reasonable minds could differ as to whether these acts are criminal to me. I would argue that to a jury in a heartbeat, and if I couldn’t sell that to them as such, I would hari kari on the spot.
I could go on, but I think you get the point. Criminal charges sound good but in practice it is a whole nuther ballgame. Charging them as an ongoing conspiracy migh get you around some of the statute of limitation problems. Maybe. But you still have a lot of other issues. I would put extremely little to no stock in this ever happening.
He is probably representative of a large number of personnel at Main Justice and OLC currently as well as the White House staffs that liason with them.
I rechecked and the Senate Bill does not povide criminal immunity nor does the House Bill, reasons that Bmaz has stated and also I believe documents that might be shown to a judge in camera while State Secrets are invoked (legislation to reform State Secrets hasn’t happened yet) make criminal prosecution to me remote.
Okay. I am watching Dean right now. He’s high on something, and I want some. I really love Dean and his main points tonight are bunk. In addition to the above, he is saying that Obama has promised to pursue criminal prosecutions. He has done nothing of the sort. Obama has given a weak ass statement that he would look into all this after he was President. Um, after today do you believe that? Get real. Remember he said he was strongly against blah, blah, blah. Did you see his reply in Marcy’s last thread? Nuff said.
Accoording to the MCI atty ATT is still on the hook for fourth amend violations because of Mark Kleins’ disclosure.
Marty goes into detail about it too.
It’s better than a sharp stick in the eye!
Clinton’s still on vacation except for asking Obama contributors to bail her campaign debts out so she doesn’t have to tap into her $100-$200 million derived from deals with Ron Burkle, and arms dealers/or dictators who swung deals for contributors to the Clinton foundation or library they are determined to keep secret.
Here’s what Obama said on Oct. 24, 2007.
Yep, you dance with who we tell you to or you don’t dance at all
According to Attytood, this is what Obama said about going after criminals in the Bush administration.
I’m not familiar with this site.
He didn’t say Obama promised anything. He raised the vacuous idea that since neither the House Bill nor the Senate Bill provided anything but civil immunity that in the future criminal prosecutions could somehow take place.
A decerbrate lawyer could defend the Telcoms. It ain’t happening for the reasons you mentioned, because of State Secrets, and because of the insipidly stupid bill from attorneys on Hoyer’s and Rockerfeller’s staff.
I see nothing substantive here that specifies anyone will do anything or means anything at all in terms of a committment. If that’s what Obama has said it’s typical campaign fluff tantamount to saying ” plan to be a decent American and have a DOJ that will review issues.
Silent treatment is a curiously interesting idea. silence as to both voice and money would be necessary though. Financial and sensory deprivation would spook the living bejeebies out of them if you could really make it sizable enough. I don’t know if it is possible, but i like it.