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	<title>Comments on: Senate Armed Services Torture Hearing, Three</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/</link>
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		<title>By: john in sacramento</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/comment-page-2/#comment-78276</link>
		<dc:creator>john in sacramento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/#comment-78276</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Always fashionably late … &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Beaver, whomever he is, is lying or an idiot&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Graham: I understand from Schmitt-Furlow report that a dog was used in interrogation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Don’t know what the Schmitt-Furlow report is, but &lt;a href=&quot;http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=3864184&amp;page=1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Camp Delta Standard Operating Procedures&lt;/a&gt; says this in part &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;The manual also includes instructions on how to use military dogs to intimidate prisoners.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;“MWD (Military Working Dogs) will walk ‘Main Street’ in Camp Delta during shifts to demonstrate physical presence to detainees,&lt;/b&gt;” reads a directive in the “Psychological Deterrence” section. “MWD will not be walked through the blocks unless directed by the (Joint Detention Operations Group).”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;The document was signed by Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller. According to media reports, Miller introduced harsh interrogation methods to Guantánamo, such as &lt;a href=&quot;http://photos.signonsandiego.com/gallery1.5/albums/Abu_Ghraib_prison_abuses/dog.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;shackling detainees into stress positions and using guard dogs to exploit what the former head commander in Iraq Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez referred to as “Arab fear of dogs.&lt;/a&gt;“&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/No_WMDs,_but_plenty_of_MWDs_at_Gitmo_in_2004&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wikileaks leaked report&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Beaver: I was not aware of it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Liar or idiot?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Graham &lt;b&gt;when you said this didn’t happen at Gitmo, you’re not right.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Beaver: &lt;b&gt;What was approved did not happen.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Liar&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Graham Who did this?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Beaver: I don’t know.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Idiot&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Graham it was part of interrogation plan. Also strip-searched in front of female personnel. Based on this report we know in &lt;a href=&quot;http://g.o.r.i.l.l.a.postle.net/images/picturegallery/DogsI13300-2004May09L.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;at least one interrogation dogs were used a person was stripped&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Beaver I haven’t read it, but I take your word for it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Liar&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Always fashionably late … </p>
<p>Beaver, whomever he is, is lying or an idiot</p>
<blockquote><p>Graham: I understand from Schmitt-Furlow report that a dog was used in interrogation.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Don’t know what the Schmitt-Furlow report is, but <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=3864184&amp;page=1" rel="nofollow">Camp Delta Standard Operating Procedures</a> says this in part </p>
<blockquote><p><b>The manual also includes instructions on how to use military dogs to intimidate prisoners.</b></p>
<p><b>“MWD (Military Working Dogs) will walk ‘Main Street’ in Camp Delta during shifts to demonstrate physical presence to detainees,</b>” reads a directive in the “Psychological Deterrence” section. “MWD will not be walked through the blocks unless directed by the (Joint Detention Operations Group).”</p>
<p><b>The document was signed by Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller. According to media reports, Miller introduced harsh interrogation methods to Guantánamo, such as <a href="http://photos.signonsandiego.com/gallery1.5/albums/Abu_Ghraib_prison_abuses/dog.jpg" rel="nofollow">shackling detainees into stress positions and using guard dogs to exploit what the former head commander in Iraq Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez referred to as “Arab fear of dogs.</a>“</b></p>
</blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/No_WMDs,_but_plenty_of_MWDs_at_Gitmo_in_2004" rel="nofollow">Wikileaks leaked report</a> </p>
<blockquote><p>Beaver: I was not aware of it.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Liar or idiot?</p>
<blockquote><p>Graham <b>when you said this didn’t happen at Gitmo, you’re not right.</b></p>
<p>Beaver: <b>What was approved did not happen.</b></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Liar</p>
<blockquote><p>Graham Who did this?</p>
<p>Beaver: I don’t know.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Idiot</p>
<blockquote><p>Graham it was part of interrogation plan. Also strip-searched in front of female personnel. Based on this report we know in <a href="http://g.o.r.i.l.l.a.postle.net/images/picturegallery/DogsI13300-2004May09L.jpg" rel="nofollow">at least one interrogation dogs were used a person was stripped</a>.</p>
<p>Beaver I haven’t read it, but I take your word for it.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Liar</p>
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		<title>By: Petrocelli</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/comment-page-2/#comment-78058</link>
		<dc:creator>Petrocelli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/#comment-78058</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;“… a moral holocaust in the White House.” - EOH&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Brilliant !&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>“… a moral holocaust in the White House.” &#8211; EOH<br /></em><br />
Brilliant !</p>
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		<title>By: phred</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/comment-page-2/#comment-78046</link>
		<dc:creator>phred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/#comment-78046</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Why would Haynes remember anything about his professional decisions regarding torture?  That’s not memorable, kinda like did he have ham or turkey on his sandwich at lunch…  Who remembers such things??? /snark&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I didn’t think it was possible, but they have finally found someone even less believable than Gonzo.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would Haynes remember anything about his professional decisions regarding torture?  That’s not memorable, kinda like did he have ham or turkey on his sandwich at lunch…  Who remembers such things??? /snark</p>
<p>I didn’t think it was possible, but they have finally found someone even less believable than Gonzo.</p>
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		<title>By: Petrocelli</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/comment-page-2/#comment-78031</link>
		<dc:creator>Petrocelli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;It’s about damn time you showed up ! &lt;strong&gt;*g*&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It’s about damn time you showed up ! <strong>*g*</strong></p>
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		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/comment-page-2/#comment-78029</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/#comment-78029</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Given that they embarked on a whole new world, the GWOT, post-9/11, and went considerably out on a legal limb to use torture - assuming it worked and only it could provide essential, immediate, actionable intelligence - recording torture techniques was essential.  What worked on what kinds of personalities, how and how fast?  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Immediately incorporating lessons learned in all other interrogations would have been essential.  The whole chain of command needed to know such things, including top policy makers in the White House, since they were authorizing use of specific techniques on named individuals.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Reasons for not recording torture interrogations?  The main actors, those in the field particularly, knew it was illegal and that eventually the recordings would leak.  They knew it didn’t provide credible actionable intelligence, any more than did Curveball, it just broke the prisoner.  Obtaining such intelligence wasn’t the main reason the administration wanted to hold itself out to the bad guys as having no limits in its willingness to pursue and punish its enemies.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Have Testosterone, Will Travel.  Lord of the Flies made national policy, a moral holocaust in the White House.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given that they embarked on a whole new world, the GWOT, post-9/11, and went considerably out on a legal limb to use torture &#8211; assuming it worked and only it could provide essential, immediate, actionable intelligence &#8211; recording torture techniques was essential.  What worked on what kinds of personalities, how and how fast?  </p>
<p>Immediately incorporating lessons learned in all other interrogations would have been essential.  The whole chain of command needed to know such things, including top policy makers in the White House, since they were authorizing use of specific techniques on named individuals.</p>
<p>Reasons for not recording torture interrogations?  The main actors, those in the field particularly, knew it was illegal and that eventually the recordings would leak.  They knew it didn’t provide credible actionable intelligence, any more than did Curveball, it just broke the prisoner.  Obtaining such intelligence wasn’t the main reason the administration wanted to hold itself out to the bad guys as having no limits in its willingness to pursue and punish its enemies.  </p>
<p>Have Testosterone, Will Travel.  Lord of the Flies made national policy, a moral holocaust in the White House.</p>
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		<title>By: jayt</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/comment-page-2/#comment-78023</link>
		<dc:creator>jayt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Haynes’ defense - I may have done some truly horrible, reprehensible, and illegal things, but hey - that was a long time ago, and I really don’t remember - I was a busy man. A combination of “CRS” and The Scooter Defense…&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haynes’ defense &#8211; I may have done some truly horrible, reprehensible, and illegal things, but hey &#8211; that was a long time ago, and I really don’t remember &#8211; I was a busy man. A combination of “CRS” and The Scooter Defense…</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/comment-page-2/#comment-78022</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:19:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;How did they differentiate between &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“not having the information unless they made up stuff or agreed to go along with whatever interrogators wanted them to say”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;v.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“not giving as much information as needed.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What with Arar admitting to being a terrorist, al-Libi admitting to al-Qaeda training camps in Iraq, etc. - was the pressure to gin up more fake intel to work around for the Iraq war - or  to actually get intel?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And if the worry was the first 9/11 anniversary, why were the torture field trip and the torture training sessions scheduled for after that date?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How did they differentiate between </p>
<p>“not having the information unless they made up stuff or agreed to go along with whatever interrogators wanted them to say”</p>
<p>v.</p>
<p>“not giving as much information as needed.</p>
<p>What with Arar admitting to being a terrorist, al-Libi admitting to al-Qaeda training camps in Iraq, etc. &#8211; was the pressure to gin up more fake intel to work around for the Iraq war &#8211; or  to actually get intel?</p>
<p>And if the worry was the first 9/11 anniversary, why were the torture field trip and the torture training sessions scheduled for after that date?</p>
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		<title>By: Petrocelli</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/comment-page-2/#comment-78020</link>
		<dc:creator>Petrocelli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/#comment-78020</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Didn’t AbuG copyright that phrase ?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn’t AbuG copyright that phrase ?</p>
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		<title>By: LS</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/comment-page-2/#comment-78019</link>
		<dc:creator>LS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:18:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;They should ask him…do you remember your graduation from college?  Do you remember your wedding day?  Do you remember the time you first….nevermind….How long ago were those events?  How did you get such a position, when you think that 6 years is a long frikkin’ time….&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Why don’t you remember significant events like this???&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They should ask him…do you remember your graduation from college?  Do you remember your wedding day?  Do you remember the time you first….nevermind….How long ago were those events?  How did you get such a position, when you think that 6 years is a long frikkin’ time….</p>
<p>Why don’t you remember significant events like this???</p>
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		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-three/comment-page-2/#comment-78018</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-four-haynes/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;New thread&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/06/17/senate-armed-services-torture-hearing-four-haynes/" rel="nofollow">New thread</a></p>
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