I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I thought it worthwhile to post a recap of the RBC meeting yesterday.
First, the outcome: The Committee decided FL and MI will be seated--with both elected and super delegates seated at half strength. The FL delegation will be based entirely on the results of their January primary. And the MI delegation will be based on what the MDP thought would be the best approximation of a fair reflection of the will of the voters--which works out to be a 69-59 split (though each delegate votes at half strength).
A review of the importance of "fair reflection" may help folks understand why the RBC chose to accept a seemingly arbitrary number from MI.
Article Two Section 4 of the Democratic Party Charter requires that delegations to the National Convention "fairly reflect the division of preferences expressed by those who participate in the Presidential nominating process." That means you've got to make sure the delegates to the Convention actually match what people who "participate in the Presidential nominating process" want. This is a concept that Hillary's top advisor, Harold Ickes, emphasized when he argued that MI's delegation should be based on our January 15 Clusterfuck--he said repeatedly that this principle was as fundamental a principle as the First Amendment. And basically, Ickes' arguments were all premised on his judgment that the Clusterfuck was a meaningful measure of the preferences for President.
But it was on the basis of this "fair representation" concept that the MI presenters, Mark Brewer and Carl Levin, made their ultimately successful arguments. Brewer (who is a big numbers geek) basically looked at several reasons why the Clusterfuck could not be considered a "fair representation:" because Obama's and Edwards' names weren't on the ballot, because an exit poll showed that Hillary and Obama would have taken something like 45% and 35% of the vote (the results of the Clusterfuck were 55% Hillary, 40% uncommitted), and the high number of write-ins that were thrown out that reflected a desire to vote for Obama or Edwards. In other words, Brewer threw out a load of data that proved that the Clusterfuck did not measure a "fair reflection" of the preferences of those who participated in the Clusterfuck. And given the results, this argument must have been persuasive to the RBC committee.
I'd add one point that Brewer did not make. The Clusterfuck can't be said to be a fair reflection of the preferences of those participating in the presidential selection process because Michiganders largely understood that the Clusterfuck was not part of the presidential selection process. We were told--even by Hillary--that our vote wouldn't count, and whether people went to the polls or stayed home, we based our decisions on that understanding. So to retroactively declare it part of the presidential selection process when, by reasonable estimates, Democratic performance was around 15% lower than what we should expect it to be this year (based on Dem performance in all the other primaries run before McCain had sewn up the Republican nomination), would unfairly leave those voters out. In other words, if 15% of the people who would have participated in the presidential selection process didn't, you can't really then declare it part of the presidential selection process and pretend it measures real preferences.
Anyway, like I said, Brewer's presentation must have convinced RBC members that the Clusterfuck results, by themselves, were not a fair reflection of the preferences of the voters of Michigan, and on that basis, they did not accept Ickes' argument that the delegation had to be seated based on the Clusterfuck.
There have been arguments--with which I have some sympathy--that the RBC exceeded its authority in then choosing to accept MI's 69-59 compromise. But even if you accept the argument that the RBC didn't have the authority to do what it did, that does not mean the delegation should have been seated based on the results of the Clusterfuck. If the RBC had determined they did not have the authority to accept MI's 69-59 split, then they should have deferred the decision to the Credentials Committee, which does have the authority to make such judgments. But it's important to note that even Hillary's campaign did not choose to pursue this option yesterday, though Hillary has reserved her right to do so in the future. The entire RBC--including Harold Ickes--decided that MI's delegation should be seated (indeed, Hillary's campaign has been most aggressive in calling for the RBC to seat the MI delegation). Call it a politically expedient solution. But once the RBC decided the MI delegation should be seated and once it agreed with Brewer's argument that the Clusterfuck was not a fair reflection of the preferences of MI voters, then they were bound to come up with what observers might find to be an arbitrary solution.
You'll hear lots of arguments about how the RBC took delegates away from Hillary to give the primary to Obama. But the real issue--the real disagreement--is over whether our Clusterfuck results can be considered a "fair representation" of voter preferences. Harold Ickes after the fact declared them so, largely by ignoring both the circumstances of the election and the data showing it was not a fair representation. The leadership of the MDP--relying on a lot of data and a close understanding of what happened during the Clusterfuck--disagrees with Ickes. Any dispute comes down to whether you think Ickes or the leadership of the MI Democratic Party was right about whether the Clusterfuck was a "fair reflection" of MI's preferences.
And frankly, I think a large number of MI voters agree with the MDP leadership, not Ickes.
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Fine review, Marcy. That is why it’s so strange and frustrating to watch and hear some of the Hillary Clinton supporters who seem to be using the ‘hands over the ears, la, la, la I can’t hear you’ method of logic.
While I agree that 73-55 was not a fair reflection, I don’t understand why the Committee didn’t give it to Clinton (with 1/2 vote of course). That way, Ickes would have had to shut up about the 4 ”stolen” delegates (2 really after you give each 1/2 vote) and Clinton Campaign would have had no leg to stand on in terms of appealing to Credentials Committee. Now wouldn’t that have done more for unity?
No, 73-55 with 1/2 vote each would not have fairly reflected MI preferences, but it would have forced most of 8 that voted against motion to support it, thus giving the Clinton Campaign less to quibble about. I know that they were already bending over backwards and, even if MI went 73-55, Clinton Campaign could still find a reason to appeal and continue marching toward Denver (although I have believed for the last month or two that this is going to happen regardless of any outcome).
Good Morning, Emptywheel! I am so deeply worried by the surprisingly large number of Clinton supporters claiming they simply do not care about the SCOTUS, the type of Government we will have for nexy four years, or anything else and they will vote for McCain in lieu of Obama out of spite. Their blanket claims of rampant misogyny are really freaking me out and to be frank it seems they just hate everyone at this point. I hope it is just their understandable disappointment at being on the wrong end of a hard fought contest, but I can easily see a United States for Clinton Party in our immediate future, for I doubt for some strange reason that Hillary shall go gently into the night.
The secretary of the DNC Alice Travis Germond wouldn’t ever allow herself to refer to MI & FL as “primaries” or “elections” and instead called them “events”. Ickes may well have a point about fair representation of an election but the fact is neither Michigan or Florida held a sanctioned DNC election. That crucial distinction allowed room for the Brewer/Levin plan, which I support.
OT: Tim Russert is a dope. Ickes is on MtP now and Russert said both Michigan and Florida were seated with full delegations with with 1/2 strength when that is NOT what happened in Michigan. Russert can’t even explain big news accurately, let alone ask cogent questions.
Thanks for the calm explanation. It seems a balanced solution without any ill will or unfairness intended. I can’t wait to move on. It will feel so much better when we are all focusing on Mcsame.
I also hope that Obama will graciously validate all those women who may have been in the trenches fighting domestic violence and sexual assaults, fearful to go out and make it on their own. I think if he can validate their struggle, reassure them that he will fight to end domestic violence (by federal help for community response teams). But the emotion is coming from victimization. The anger is irrational, but the reason for the anger (feeling unrepresented, invalidated already) is understandable. Wome are still dying. Domestic violence is the number one cause of accidental death for women. And still one in three girls are sexually assaulted.
We do need a leader who is sympathetic to these issues and a strong fighter. In that regard alone, Clinton was far more the champion of those women who continue to be victimized than Obama ever has been. He needs to validate that pain, take them into the fold, reassure them that he understands the political issues under domestic violence, the need for shelters, counseling.
The welfare to work program under Bill Clinton had a HUGE domestic violence counseling provisions. The Clintons understood that the reasons women on welfare don’t go back to work right away aren’t just about “dress for success” issues. If he can make this part of his platform, validation does more to de-escalate this kind of emotion than any behavior I can think of. (and still so many women I worked with WANTED to work, despite the complicated issues that made it difficult for them.)
Thanks for the explanation, the best one I have read. I am ready to start focusing on Mr. Mcsame!!
Tim Russert, like any actor, is only as good as his lines. Another news reader masquerading as a journalist IMO. Was he personally paying anything like close attention to what happened yesterday? Doubtful. Nor apparently were the writers of his copy.
Many thanks to you & Jane, ew, for the exceptional play-by-play of the meeting, yr. walk-through of the process & its results. Excellent coverage of this.
OT- Universal Studios Hollywood back lot area engulfed by a huge fire this morning. It’s threatening the old film vaults where I have worked for several yrs. for AMIA viewing & cataloging prints for restoration & conservation. History might be going up in smoke over there. Shit.
Thanks for this, Marcy
Coming from you, this is a great de-brief, not abuse of a deceased equine.
If you’re still here, and one exists, I’d really appreciate a definitive link to what the candidates agreed to and when vis a vis MI (and FL). Someone keeps posting “but what proof is there that the Clinton campaign agreed to _anything_?” blah blah blah. Since this is an FDL regular, I’d like to give them the benefit of the doubt that they actually want information and be armed with more than “gee, really reliable people who should know, like EW and Rachael Maddow and others, have been saying so from the very beginning of this clusterf*ck fiasco.” As much as I want to tell this person and others that the burden of proof is now on them to back up their claims of “HRC was ROBBED”, this seems like something factual enough that I’ll be able to just post a link and ignore the rest of the whining.
FunnyDiva
nope, don’t have a strong opinion on the poo flinging. not me!
What you are describing is explained by Otto Kernberg (psychoanalyst, may no longer be alive) as “regression in groups” - particularly under certain types of “leaders.” Yes it’s scary to see. (hate to say this but it helps us understand what happened in Nazi Germany and other places). If anybody has the time and mental energy and is willing to plow through some chapters despite lack of training in psychodynamics, you can get an excellent overview of the pathology in Kernberg’s book Internal World and External Reality. The chapters in the last third of the book deal with what is concerning you, chapters such as “Regression in Groups,” “Regression in Organizations,” and “Regression in Leaders.”
I am also relieved to tell you that Obama is already receiving the advice and assistance of mental health experts who have trained and worked with Kernberg and who are focused on community mental health.
If you look at the two current Dem campaigns, it’s like a textbook case of what can go wrong and what to do to try and prevent that.
I myself am extremely concerned for these hillary supporters who clearly are in need of help, but apparently won’t get it from their candidate. Very worrisome.
An interesting Dkos comment on the status of the MI split: http://www.dailykos.com/commen.....pid=0#c681
Oh, no, Marie
I hope the fire isn’t as bad for the archives/vault as you fear.
FunnyD
Hard to tell what’s what from the aerial views on tv coverage, but it looks grim. Some old standing sets in the “New York Street” area have burned down; vault building is close behind them.
Thanks a thousand-fold Marcy.
Your play-by-play, and as much analysis as you wish to share, are incredibly valuable for us non-pros.
I suspect I’m not alone in being asked, “what happened?!?!” by many contacts. Without your untangling of the huge web of information that peaked yesterday, and will shortly rise again, people like me would be lost.
With your shared insight, instead we are enabled to help counter whatever is served up by russert et al.
I know the road still looks pretty bumpy at the moment, but I feel much better about our party than I did before yesterday’s meeting.
btw, in case no one else has mentioned it, Sara has a fascinating description of meeting-related tidbits and historical context downstairs.
http://emptywheel.firedoglake......ment-73724
Oh, poop. I’m sorry. Not because I’m a huge film/Hollywood buff, which I’m not, really, but because you and others have worked hard there and care about what might be lost, and I really do understand that.
(((Marie)))
FunnyD
What Adie said. Preach it, sistah.
FunnyD
Thanks, FunnyD. It’s not just movies in that particular vault- there are newsreels, travelogues, documentaries from a lot of sources around the world. Not just Universal’s output. Other studios have been sending older & deteriorating films & their negs to Universal’s vault for yrs.
Local tv coverage of the U. fire has now stopped to make way for the talking head shows, our pal Russert among them. Net coverage continues. I’ll bet Howie Klein can see the smoke column from his house, if he still lives over near Griffith Park.
Wow. Thank you, Sara! And of course EW. (((Marie)))
If you want to see the extent of the anger, check out this site. The commenters are really angry.
If the only consequence of the RBC meeting was appeasement of HRC, then they might have done as Ickes suggested. But this also sets precedent for future clusterf^@ks. So you want to set a precedent you can live with, not one you’ll regret the morning after.
Thanks for this, TheraP!
What still staggers me is that these folks are so angry they (say right now that they) would rather vote for McCain.
Does Dr K have a chapter on cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face? Can I even ask that without being invalidating?
FunnyD
The Times says it took out the ‘Kong Kong’ area too. (I think they mean ‘King Kong’, but I sure wouldn’t bet on it.)
They’re using the water-dropping choppers on it. The studio says there was filming going on last night, implying that something might have shorted or sparked.
Thanks, Loo Hoo. A colleague just sent me an email- vaults may in fact have gone up. Universal PR flacks being very close-mouthed about it. Just got out my 2nd set of worry beads.
On topic- HRC must lead the Dem party healing process, must show her supporters the way. This could be her shining moment, her finest hour, in a way she didn’t anticipate @ the beginning of her run- taking the lead in healing us, helping all Dems speak w/one voice in Nov. Let it be.
Wow. This is just cosmically unfair “piling on” by the Universe. Or maybe a reminder of how really bad and sad things happen even when not facilitated by “man’s inhumanity to man.”
I just remembered my department secretary in the 1990s during the Yugoslavia disintegration when the animals in the Sarajevo zoo were dying of neglect: “I can give to planned parenthood and red cross, but, bloody hell, this sucks and I hate not being able to do anything about it.”
OK, it’s my paraphrase, but that was the gist of that conversation.
So, let me say for the record how much I appreciate, esteem and value all of you, my “friends in the computer.” Not only do you keep me informed, at times like this you also keep me human. Thanks.
FunnyD
Basically when this kind of thing happens, it’s like the group itself loses the ability to monitor behavior and particularly to monitor and channel aggression. Instead of aggression being channeled in constructive ways, toward reachable goals and objectives (through non-destructive means), you get “regression” and a loosening of ego controls. And yes… shooting yourself and others in the foot is a good description of part of what can happen. We’re talking an inability to “think clearly” due to being overwhelmed by these primitive feelings. Which is particularly dangerous when it occurs in a group. Bad enough you have a mass murderer. But in a group, where that dyscontrol begins to feel “normal” or “sanctioned,” it is difficult for even mature and wise individuals to maintain ego control. And for bystanders, who aren’t part of the group, it’s excruciating to watch.
For the most part, I agree with your assessment of the Michigan delegate situation Marcy. The 69/59 split was probably the best of all the bad possible solutions (although I still the supers should have had their voting privileges removed).
But, I don’t think it was a case of the majority of Michigan’s Democrats agreeing with MDP leadership on this issue.
I think you have it backwards and the leadership of the MDP at long last decided to listen to the Democrats of Michigan - the majority of which never believed the January primary was a legitimate contest to begin with.
I don’t think people outside the state that were not involved in Democratic politics in Michigan ever really understood what was really going on in Michigan. They got their information from campaign surrogates and the MDP, all of which had their own agendas to represent and presenting the true state of the Democratic Party in Michigan was definitely not on their agendas.
The Democratic Party of Michigan was deeply fractured by this mess and something had to be done to try to heal the rift… It wasn’t in the MDP’s interest to tell the world that gigantic chunks of their party apparatus were seriously angry with their state party leadership over this matter or to tell the world that the MDP’s county parties all over the state were bleeding membership left and right over the MDP leadership’s mishandling of the primary fiasco.
The campaign’s both had a dog in this fight, so while it was in their interest to acknowledge the rift, it wasn’t in their interests to accurately represent the cause of the rift…
So the media and the rest of the country ended up thinking that the Dems of Michigan were either supportive of the MDP’s decisions concerning the primary or were against the primary, because it was unfair to their candidate of choice.
In the end few people outside of our state ever got the real situation… Which was most of the Dems of our state were raging mad about the January primary and were mad about it because it happened without our consent. Nobody asked regular party members if they wanted to gamble with their right to vote by moving up our primary date. No one asked us if we wanted to vote in a primary that wasn’t going to count and only had one name on it anyway… No one asked US anything.
As early as last year, back when it the possibility of the MDP ignoring the DNC primary schedule was not yet a concrete fact, but merely a whisper campaign; county parties, district committees and activists groups sent letters of protest and petitions against such a primary change to the MDP… and nobody listened.
We tried to follow party procedure to make our wishes known by attending State Central Meetings and such… and we were told before the meetings started that the primary was not to be discussed and anyone that brought it up would be asked to leave.
So not only were the regular Democrats of Michigan not asked by our party leaders what WE would like to do, when we offered up our opinions unsolicited to the MDP we were ignored and when we tried to follow party protocol to voice our displeasure we were told we weren’t allowed to speak.
The regular Democrats of Michigan were literally ignored at every possible juncture by our party leadership.
That was the real situation and THAT is what so many people don’t know and don’t understand.
This admission by the MDP that the January primary wasn’t legitimate was the only thing of value to come out of this whole mess… To me it was the MDP FINALLY listening to the will of the Democrats of Michigan that they’re supposed to represent.
((((Marie))))
I’m hoping the Univ. folks’ silence is just exercising an abundance of caution. Oh sigh.
On topic- I very much like your thoughts in re HRC. Would even suggest you e-mail her directly. Sounds like a very reasonable way for her to save face. She’s a very talented lady. This has to be an excruciatingly hard time for her.
Marie, I pray she has that capacity within her. But I fear she may not. I fear it may be very late in the game - and would need some kind of conversion experience and tremendous courage. I would rather be proved wrong on this point, but it’s not looking hopeful - from my perspective.
AP report, summarized:
They’re reporting it as ‘contained’ - it’s the county fire dept fighting it. Only one building lost, not otherwise identified. Streets burned because of the timber framing on the facades. There was one explosion - if the vaults went, could that have been it?
from the LA Times story:
It sounds like they were trying to save what they could reach.
Thank you for that, Lisa. There are a few people whose roles in the clusterfuck are unforgivable; I feel for Levin, knowing that he was likely used by them, since they knew he’d been pushing since before 2004 and possibly earlier for a primary process that was more representative of a diverse country.
The entire process has revealed how very opaque operations are behind this democracy, even to those within the Democratic Party. I shudder to think what it’s like on the other side of the aisle where authoritarians find comfort.
Thank you all for the info, and good company(!)
I must go get something tangible done around here. Moving is heQQ, even when you theoretically have plenty of time, and look fwd to the move.
Can you read tw’ the lines? my forte is definitely NOT organization, heh…
I wish the best outcome possible for you (((Marie))).
PJEvans: thanks for the updates…
Ah. That makes sense. Thanks.
Sounds like the molten core of this angry group is well beyond any individual or campaign’s ability to “reach out to.” Not that Obama doesn’t need to acknowledge the issue. I think he can and will. Just observing that blaming him and his campaign for not bringing them back into the fold (because a significant number may indeed vote McCain or sit out) will be illogical as well as unjust.
FunnyD
Thanks for the update. I can’t get any credible info from Uni yet on what’s gone. Re: explosions- they certainly are a possibility when large amounts of film heat up to flashpoint, esp. the older & nitrate based ones.
PJEvans @ 28- I read that, too. A team is assembling to going over there; in contact w/USC & UCLA archivists also. Have to go now.
Bye, Marie. Good luck.
Thanks for your excellent comment. Since the MI party leadership was so dismissive of the opinions of the party regulars, do you get a sense that the party regulars are likely to remove the MI party leadership? Do you anticipate primary challenges to those who derive their leadership positions from their elected offices (e.g., Granholm, Levin, etc.)? Just curious…
I must be crazy, I suppose, but I hope the division is not permanent, and that a number of currently very angry folks soon recognize the wisdom of working together. The alternative is facing us from the bigwhitehouse on a daily basis, and it is unbearable to contemplate the possibility of leaving things as they are.
Please let there be healing and positive methods, and a total lack of gloating or prideful stomping. Whoever “wins” in November will be facing a monstrous task just trying to mend and clean up after the previous tenants, much less making any substantial progress on a huge wish list of worthy, desperately needed projects.
Thanks much for that link to Sara’s comment, completely missed it — and it is a gem.
There is so much context and subtext that we can’t readily access, so nice to have more of it to enlighten our understanding.
As someone explained it to me in the last two weeks, certain members of the state party have incredibly strong skills at keeping their job(s).
Let’s just say they are going to get a workout of those skills next January.
I will refer you to Rayne’s comment.
Yeah, I’ve wondered about that myself.
I know how very undemocratic our party leadership can be, so it actually scares me to think of how the repubs must run their party.
This reminds me of a fee dispute I had years ago, in which the client stated something like: I know I agreed to the figure, but I didn’t think I’d actually have to pay it.
Are we a nation of laws or what?
Yes. And that is what has me concerned. And that is why HRC’s comment about RFK’s assassination was so dangerous.
How to help these HRC supporters….. Hmmm…. Again, my concern here is that many of the ones who are most vociferous may have so much emotional baggage of their own. And, if so, they may be projecting their anger onto anyone who has not supported HRC.
We need national health care. And national mental health care. And even then…. Not everyone is treatable. I hate to break it to you. But there it is! “Molten core” - you put your finger on it.
Over at the Big Orange, Meteor Blades is taking into the HRC supporters who plan to vote for McSame if she isn’t nominated.
One word summary: Ouch.
Because the point is to establish unity WITHIN MI.
I can promise you, had they sat a 73-55 delegation, there would have been a whole bunch of MI voters who felt–correctly–that their vote had been robbed.
Ultimately, it will not affect the election (which was also an understanding all of us Michiganders had going into the voting book on January 15). Hell, maybe when Hillary concedes Obama will magnanimously shift the delegation to be 73-55 again. But the 69-59 numbers were about MI voters, not about Hillary’s advisors.
I sneak back with hat in hand (well, I would if I ever wore a hat), Marcy, to apologize for my bloggery yesterday. I totally misunderstood that your thread was finished and another was up at the FDL main site. So I took it upon myself (dangerous, always dangerous!) to kinda live blog what was going on at the Dem-o-lition Derby. Duh.
I want to repost a point I made downs stairs regarding seating these delegates;
the primaries are not an election, they are not democratic, methhodology are not part of the constitution, the process is part and parcel to the rules of the party the way they see fit, those candidates that compete in the primary sign on to those rules
just like a tennis match, it’s not democratic at all, it’s a competition
when the rules seem outdated, the rules can be changed, no big deal but everyone needs to get out of their heads that the primaries are representative of democracy by wrote, they are not
the primaries are not set up to run the candidate that gets the most votes they are set up to run the candidate that is going to be best for the party or that’s the intention of this process
now, running the candidate that’s best for the party or the country is a pretty subjective task and I am not sure I agree with how we go about it, but I do agree with this;
the primaries are not part of the election, it’s a selection process not an election and whatever process is set up by the party, it needs reflect nothing but what the party agrees it reflect
I agree. But unlike Calvinball, rules should not be altered after the fact. Otherwise, what is the point?
Link to a pretty thorough analysis of Michigan exit polling data to determine who voters would have voted for had everyone been on the ballot there:
http://ccpsblog.blogspot.com/2.....ma-in.html
Yes!
Dems split the baby in half- but probably resolved the problem as well as they could under the circumstances.
Obama’s got the nomination and Hillary has enough delegates to play the understudy which is the best she could have done anyway.
When I was at Maine Democratic State Convention this weekend, the topic of MI & FL came up. We all agreed (Obama supporters, of course) that THOSE VOTERS who did not participate in the primaries of these states DID NOT PARTICIPATE BECAUSE THEY KNEW THE RULES…which were…IF HELD EARLIER THAN SCHEDULED THE DELEGATES WILL NOT COUNT.
The American voters in these two states WHO FOLLOWED THE RULES are the ones who were REALLY disenfranchised now that it’s been decided that the votes should count. Did the Hillary supporters ever think of them? Nope. Selfish. And what about the voters who did participate who have now changed their mind about Hillary and wanted to vote for Obama instead? The Hillary supporters definitely didn’t think of them either!!! Again. Selfish and self-centered.
Here’s the post I did about my experience at the Maine Democratic State Convention. It was my first time participating and I have to say…I was proud to be an Obama delegate and to cast my vote for him!
http://whitenoiseinsanity.word.....onvention/
Enjoy! I talk about the Hillary supporters and how they acted yesterday. They reminded me of the Gathering of Eagle neocons who are just looking for a fight and who have nothing intelligent to say.
I agree/disagree
if you can make everyone happy without changing the results with a compromise then compromise away
I don’t think that the rule specified the punishment- that was up to the committee to decide and they just did.
Just gimmee the damn sausage and let’s start making that sangwich!!
Thanks to you and Rayne both : ) It will be interesting to keep an eye on what transpires out your way…
This is good analysis by EW, and it has always been apparent that a significant number of people in Michigan who were clearly told their vote was not going to count due to the penalty stayed home–EW estimates it at 15%. If I were told that my state had been penalyzed by the DNC, and my vote was not going to count, I wouldn’t have voted in my state’s primary.
But the real issue–the real disagreement–is over whether our Clusterfuck results can be considered a “fair representation” of voter preferences. Harold Ickes after the fact declared them so, largely by ignoring both the circumstances of the election and the data showing it was not a fair representation.
And that’s been the main problem with the claims as to Michigan by Clinton, Ickes, McAuliffe, and Wolfson.
As Donna Brazile said on ABC This Week, Obama had an RBC margin to defeat any proposal Ickes proferred by two votes, and could have had a more favorable outcome to Obama in Michigan (not that it would have changed the result of this primary), but he still offered concessions to her in Michigan and Florida. Senator Clinton rejected the olive branches that the Obama campaign held out to her.
I fully expect Senator Clinton to try to take this to Credentials in Denver.
It would be hard to hold this leadership accountable.
Carl Levin is up for reelection this year. But aside from his passion about the voting process and his passion for taxi meters, he is a very good (though by no means perfect) Senator–I much prefer him to Stabenow, for example, and during the lonely days of the early war period both Levin and Stabenow were two of the standouts in teh Dem caucus. Because he is a very good Senator, Levin will be re-elected with very large margins.
Debbie Dingell is both a DNC member and a member of Wayne State’s Board of Governors. The former will be up this year, the latter in two years. She is tremendously powerful in the state, largely because for votes that matter, the UAW will still swing elections.
Jennifer Granholm is a term-limited governor. Had Hillary won, she would have been assured, certainly, of a cabinet position. I think that’s less likely now, and she may one day run for Senate, but there wouldn’t be a Senate position available anytime soon in any case.
Mark Brewer is, by many measures, one of the more effect party chairs in the country (and one of the most powerful). THe most likely replacement for Mark is a close ally of his, and I can’t think of any other credible challengers. Also, as with Dingell, if Mark were seriously challenged for the Chairmanship, the UAW would certainly deliver the election for him.
We might be able to legitimately challenge Joel Ferguson, but that’s about it.
oh, think progress has scott saying the president should have fired rove
that was nice to see
That’s not what I heard on news report months ago. Didn’t Howard Dean and others at the Committee hold a vote a couple months prior to the primary season that any state holding their primaries/caucuses early would have their delegates stripped?
About Kagro’s post that Marcy refers to (asserting that the RBC exceeded its authority yesterday), which worried me when I saw it last night…
This morning I was relieved to see this thoughtful diary on the subject. The whole thing is really worth reading; it’s a good legal analysis of why the RBC’s rulings were actually in keeping with its authority.
Those old films are nitrate based and would indeed cause an explosion if engulfed. That would be really sad.
Thanks, EW. Always nice to see a clear analysis of these things.
(((QuakerGirl)))
My recollection is a bit fuzzy- but as I recall, the threats came not from Dean but from some members of the rules commitee (or perhaps another committee.) They threatened Florida and Michigan but many said at the time that the delegation would probably be seated in the end- that the committee in question was just “making a point”.
Read this rwcole:
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.c.....l-res.html
And don’t forget to check the date this article was written too, rwcole.
I don’t think that’s what happened.
We still come back to rule of law. Skirting the issue because it isn’t actually an election begs the question, which is one of leadership. I cannot support a candidate who blows by the rules because she is losing. I cannot trust her to lead from integrity, to both her country and herself.
Thanks EW. From what I understand between you and DHinMI yesterday, Brewer was caught between a rock and a hard place about jumping the primary date. And to be fair to Levin, he made an excellent case yesterday for why they did jump — out of frustration with the IA/NH stranglehold on the process.
Still, from what Lisa pointed out above, I have big problems with the leadership sacrificing the public’s right to participate in a meaningful vote, without their consent, much less active participation. For that, it would be nice if they paid a price for their hubris.
I expect her to lose that appeal.
Now if we can just get Obama to abandon the DLC influence.
That article is about Dean responding to a lawsuit- not about him making a decision.
That’s been my problem with this all along. Rules are rules, unless my candidacy is in peril, and then rules are made to be interpreted after the fact. I’d like to believe I’d be fair-minded about this were it Obama in Hillary’s shoes. Thing is, Obama walks a totally different path. That said, I confess I’m not certain I’m being objective.
I think most of Hillary’s supporters will come back to the fold in five months. Those who don’t are probably A*PA*I*C types like Lieberman for whom only one issue matters. This is certainly the case with some of her larger donors, and they are quite rightly miffed at being out in the cold and probably feel their project is now better pursued by backing McShame. There’s money involved, but not a lot votes except in FL, which is probably a lost cause anyway.
The Hillary/Obama flap is about over- three more primaries and there is no more “campaign”.
Obama has the nomination. Now it’s about finding a way for him to get competitive in Florida and winning Ohio,Pennsylvania, and Michigan….and that’s not going to be easy.
In the next month, Obama and McBush will start moving towards the center- claiming it as their rightful property…McBush has started staking it out already.
If HRC is seen dragging her feet to embrace Obama when this is over, whether he wins or loses in November, that’s The End of the Clintonocracy. Rank and File Democrats (except her most rabid supporters) won’t IMHO embrace her or the Big Dog again.
Disagreement is one thing, Disloyalty quite another.
I see Obama supporters (I am one) between the old rock/hard place. If we extend the olive branch to Hillaryites, we are being disingenuous, too-little-too-late conquerors of the misogynistic wing of the party. (sigh) If we do nothing, we are lousy winners. Where is the delicate line here and what do “civilians” do about this?
Hillary will embrace Obama.
There is no Clintonocracy to protect.
This was their last shot (unless Chelsea runs in twenty years)
Both Clintons need to show some grace. This is an opportunity for them.
Ego-need vs. genuine compassion for their COUNTRY.
We will survive if they choose wrongly, but I hope they embrace acceptance and the higher ground.
It hurt when Edwards suspended his campaign, but I felt confident Edwards would be available to give his best which is a lot in the next Dem administration. I trusted Edwards for that and the Party.
I felt frustrated that Gore and Kerry gave up the fight too readily. And I accepted Hillary wanted to push farther and not give up prematurely. But, when it turns to irrational demonizing of your opponent, and encouraging that in others as political leverage, that is crossing a line.
I predict she does
Could be- geezer parents in tow.
In twenty years, EVERYONE will be able to laugh about Bill’s Bombastic Blowjob.
Chelsea will run on the promise of not gettin a blowjob in the Oval Office.
Good summary Marcy. I’m with the people who don’t think the committee had the actual power under the Rules to do what it did but I do think that because it was a good compromise and supported by the MI Dem Party no challenge to it will succeed anyway.
And good analysis of the ‘fair representation’ rule and how it impacted the result. I’m one of those people who have always felt that neither the FL or MI election could be used to determine a ‘fair representation’ because neither could truly be relied on to reflect the will of Democrats in either state since Democrats were told their vote wouldn’t count AND relied on the fact that nobody else’s vote would count either.
I’m glad a decision has been made and we can move along. And let’s all support reform of the system for the next nominating process.
Okay, try this article on for size (noting the dates too):
http://news.aol.com/elections-.....delegates/
It was decided WELL BEFORE THE PRIMARY/CAUCUS SEASON. The rules were known and many Democrats of each state did not vote on the primary/caucus day because they knew the rules.
Oh, we’ll try to hold them accountable… but as emptywheel states above, there’s really only one person left that we could hold accountable and it’s highly unlikely we’ll be able to succeed in those efforts.
Probably the best outcome we can hope for as far as punishment or accountability for those responsible for this mess is to make a point… because I don’t want to replace Levin, Granholm is basically already gone and it’s unlikely Brewer’s going anywhere (no matter how much I wish that weren’t so).
There are other options available that would enable us to have more say in how the state party runs that don’t require the nearly impossible ouster of Mark Brewer.
However, these options are much more likely for us to achieve if we have the element of surprise, so I am hopeful you won’t mind if I don’t discuss them in such a public forum just yet.
Dear God.
Maybe this has been adressed already. I’m coming in late to the thread, but it seems strange to me that death from domestic violence is counted as “accidental”.
From the latest version of the Times story -it’s top of teh page on their site, too:
MarieRoget would know far better than I if that’s true about the stuff in the vault being copies. After the last several years, my first reaction is to think of CYA.
I also think they really ought to have moved the vault away from the production area.
Hey all!
I am looking for Hillary supporters. If you’re in Hils camp, would you pop by here when you get a sec?
http://livefrankly.wordpress.c.....upporters/
Thanks in advance!
Now it’s about finding a way for him to get competitive in Florida and winning Ohio,Pennsylvania, and Michigan….and that’s not going to be easy.
I forgot to mention thaqt on the night of the May 6 primary here in Indiana, while I was with the Obama legal team, one of them asked me what I thought of (the Governor of Ohio, spacing the name) as a V.P. choice.
Granted, it was just one guy, but at least somebody over there is thinking about him….
Yeah- the rules and by laws committee voted not to seat the delegates after the state of Florida moved up the primary-
At the time, I seem to recall that there was a discussion to the effect that the committee in question was just firing a shot across the bow and that the whole thing would probably get decided later- and that the delegates would probably be seated (as they are)..
But my memory is a bit dim on the subject.
I think we actually do have a chance to change things this time — because some of the angriest people were UAW.
If we were to put it to the UAW that they must pick someone who was NOT UAW but union friendly, someone who was a populist and NOT Brewer, I think we could change leadership.
And there’s also the AFL-CIO and SEIU — could just as easily go to them and ask them to look for somebody else that is part of the next generation of activists who can fight in this internet-mediated and outsourced world for them in a way that the old school folks can’t grok.
Mum’s the word ; ) Best of luck to you! I really do like Dean’s 50-state strategy, but only if it empowers local party members to exert greater control over their own party. Simply farming out the current ills of DC power brokers to 50 sets of power brokers, while an improvement, is not sufficient. Good luck!