There's something disturbing in the Rules and By-Law Committee Meeting Materials handed out for Saturday's meeting: the distinct possibility that the RBC will overturn the results of MI's April 19 Convention, the only thing approaching a real exercise in democracy this year. It's the problem of how to assign uncommitted delegates as supporting Obama.
First, the document pretty much throws out the possibility of doing a 69-59 split, which is what the MDP recommended.
If the RBC determines that any of the pledged delegate positions should be restored to the MDP, the first question presented is whether the results of the January 15, 2008 primary should be used in any way in allocating the results.
On the one hand, if the RBC does determine that Michigan should be allowed to send some pledged delegates to the Convention, there must be some basis for allocating those delegates among presidential candidates (preferences). A fundamental principle of delegate selection is expressed in the provision of the Charter requiring that delegates be chosen through processes which “assure that delegations fairly reflect the division of preferences expressed by those who participate in the Presidential nominating process.” Similarly, Rule 13(A) of the Delegate Selection Rules provides that, “Delegates shall be allocated in a fashion that fairly reflects the expressed presidential preference or uncommitted status of the primary voters….” In this case, it can be argued, there is no basis for ensuring “fair reflection” of presidential preference other than to use the results of the January 15 primary.
On the other hand, it can be argued that the primary as a whole could not possibly have served as a “fair reflection” of presidential preference because most of the candidates then running for the nomination were not on the ballot.
It then proceeds by considering a whole bunch of possibilities pertaining to the original Clusterfuck, the January 15 primary, apparently believing the RBC can only address those results. It rules out categorically giving all the uncommitted delegates to Obama.
Nevertheless, there is no specific authority whatsoever in the Delegate Selection Rules or the Call for the RBC to award delegate positions won by the “Uncommitted” preference to a particular candidate or candidates.
It continues to consider whether there's a way to at least give the candidates who were not on the ballot (and therefore covered by "uncommitted") the ability to influence who gets picked as an elected delegate.
On the other hand, it can be argued that the voters expressing the “Uncommitted” preference were expressing a preference for at least one of the candidates whose names did not appear on the January 15 ballot, rather than rejecting the entire field. Therefore, following the principle of fair reflection of presidential preference, it can at least be said that the “Uncommitted” delegate positions should be considered as being allocated collectively to the candidates whose names did not appear on the ballot: Senator Barack Obama, former Senator John Edwards, Senator Joseph Biden and Governor Bill Richardson.
ased on this logic, a strong argument can be made that in awarding delegate positions to “Uncommitted” status in the unusual circumstances presented by the Michigan challenge, the RBC would at least have the authority to make special provisions for the exercise of candidate right of approval in the selection of delegates to fill these pledged “Uncommitted” positions.
[snip]
At the least it would appear that the RBC could grant to those candidates—the ones who withdrew their names from the January 15 primary ballot — collectively the right to exercise candidate right of approval with respect to the eligibility of persons to be considered to fill the “Uncommitted” pledged delegate slots. It is possible that these candidates—only one of whom actively remains in the race—could work out among themselves the mechanics of approving the persons to be considered for the “Uncommitted” pledged delegate positions.
This is a legalistic way of suggesting that maybe those candidates not on the ballot could decide, together, who should be eligible to become delegates (it doesn't say so, but of course all the people not on the ballot in January--Biden, Richardson, Edwards, and Obama--are either supporters of Obama or are Obama).
But here's the problem. To do that--to give the uncommitted delegates to Obama (which they sound inclined to do), they'd have to redo the District Conventions.
As noted, the MDP is in the process of completing the selection of delegates as if no sanction had been imposed, filling all delegate positions originally provided by the Call, and allocating those positions based on the results of the Jan. 15 primary. If a determination is made to award the positions originally allocated to the “Uncommitted” preference collectively to the candidates whose names were not on the ballot and to allow them to exercise candidate right of approval, then the RBC presumably would have to require the MDP to undertake a new selection process, including filing by delegate candidates and candidate right of approval, to fill those positions. [my emphasis]
Wonderful. Not only is our January primary the biggest clusterfuck in the nation. But our April District Conventions are on their way to becoming clusterfucks too.
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I still have a problem with the whole thing, either you have to follow ALL the rules and sanctions or you ignore them. I say if you are not going to honor the sanctions split them 50/50. NO ONE was suppose to run as I understand it, correct me if im wrong on this.
Marcy will fix this if I bugger it up; but i think you are wrong. The deal was that there would be no campaigning there; most candidates removed their names from the ballot on their own out of subservience to the churlish states of Iowa and New Hampshire. There was absolutely nothing compelling them to do so. Furthermore, there are modalities within said rules, although different actors interpret them differently, to reach an agreement on what should be done and how delegates should be allocated; the problem is lack of consensus on anything.
I thought it was Florida with the “no campaigning” agreement. But, you’re right, we’ll let Marcy straighten us out.
FunnyD
This is probably hopelessly naive, but why not do the following?
First, only seat 50% of the delegates for MI and 50% of the delegates for FL, as the penalty for violating national D party rules by running their primary/caucus so frickin’ early.
Second, how to apportion those delegates between Hil/Barry? Well, in FL both candidates at least sorta ran, so apportion FL’s reduced set of delegates between Hil and Barry in whatever proportion the votes came in. I don’t even know what that split was. In MI, by contrast, only Hil ran so there was no real race and so there is no reasonable basis available upon which to apportion delegates Hil/Barry… so for MI simply split the reduced set of delegates 50%/50%.
The penalty reductions thus reduce the net effect on the convention ballots of any unaviodable unfairness in the Hil/Barry apportionment, by a factor of half. Who doesn’t win?
No, both. The difference, as I’m beginning to understand it, is FL has a rule that says if you’re not on the ballot YOU CAN”T run. Whereas, in the absence of a rule like that, a bunch of people wanted to take their name off the ballot so they didn’t run by default.
But there wasn’t supposed to be campaigning. A bunch of Hillary supporters did send out some flyers. And Conyers did radio ads saying, if you want to support Obama, vote uncommitted. But that’s it.
THe point of this post is that RBC says it can’t do anything like that. It can tell you how to interpre the results of an election. But it can’t tell you to ignore the election and seat on some other means.
Sure, but if their untenable choice is either to seat based on the results of hopelessly dodgy elections, or else to go hardball — as originally threatened — and not seat at all because of the state party rulebreaking w/r/t election dates, don’t you think some sort of rule change is likely to be forced to enable some middle way out? The unviability of their two options seems pretty obvious, so I jumped ahead to What Next?
I posted an email from Rep. Wexler about impeachment on the McClellen thread. No huge news in it, but is is interesting nevertheless. I still think he probably pimps this issue as a fundraising tool mostly; and I still don’t care, he is about the only guy doing it and I appreciate that. Go Wexler!
Because Obama didn’t campaign in Florida. Hillary therefore got a lot of votes based on simple name recognition. In addition, a lot of voters–who were told that their votes wouldn’t count–didn’t bother to vote. Why should they have?
My personal solution–assuming Team Obama would sign off on it–would be this: Seat the pledged delegates with 1/2 a vote each. “Seat” the Superdelegates in the worst seats in the house, and force them to wear T-shirts saying, “Observer Only. I forfeited my voting rights by enabling a total clusterfuck and then refusing to fix it.”
this is way ot but since your the resident Plame scholar, are you familiar with this?
http://wotisitgood4.blogspot.c.....ssman.html
Ah, thanks. (See? I said I didn’t know about FL!) So a 50/50 split of the reduced-by-have delegate counts in both MI and FL, then. If and only if the rules get changed. As I would expect to happen very soon. Though not necessarily before Saturday’s Committee meeting. More likely IMVHO that the Saturday Committee meeting results in the issue getting kicked upstairs. For re-examination of the rules.
OT - The Blackwater training facility in San Diego is headed to court. Please watch to see who is the judge on the case - will it be Laura Parsky?
http://www.rawstory.com/news/m.....82008.html
“Blackwater has been targeted by local anti-war activists since 2006, when the North Carolina company bought a defunct chicken ranch in the mountains about 40 miles east of San Diego with plans for converting it into a training camp for local and federal law enforcement, including Border Patrol.”
7-31-2006: Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger today announced the appointment [of] Laura H. Parsky to judgeships in the San Diego County Superior Court.
http://gov.ca.gov/press-release/2708/
I am damn glad we can all have the chance to bust our butts keep all the Obama people and their single minded desires happy; because, you know, that is far more important than doing something right.
Yes. There is evidence from the CIA submitted as part of the legal proceedings that seems to contradict this.
I’m curious, bmaz — What from your POV would ‘doing something right’ entail in this highly cluster-fricked case?
The “Obama people” aren’t the ones who fucked this all up. You can thank the state and local officials in Florida and Michigan for that.
Here’s my simple-minded analogy of the whole thing: Bob wants to drive 80 mph to get to work tomorrow. He calls the police to ask permission to do this, and the police say, “Um, no.” Bob tells the police that he’s going to do it anyway. The police tell him that if he does, he’s going to be ticketed for speeding. So Bob drives 80 mph, gets pulled over, and gets a ticket for speeding. Bob jumps up and down, stomps his feet, holds his breath, and whines that the police are taking away his right to drive. The police roll their eyes, and they finally say, “Okay, look. If you’ll just get in your car, go home, and then drive back to work while obeying the posted speed limit, we’ll tear this ticket up and pretend like the whole thing never happened.” Bob’s house is only ten minutes away, but he spends the next 3 1/2 hours telling police that their plan is impractical and simply can’t be done. When he finally gets to work, his exasperated boss what’s to know why he’s so late, so Bob tells him the whole story.
Now tell me, if you were Bob’s boss (the voters), who would you be pissed off at: Bob (the state and local officials of Florida and Michigan) or the police (the DNC)?
Myself, I think Florida was a fair enough fight; I would take the proportions of the vote and roll with it. Probably would not seat supers and/or reduce the normal delegates proportionally to leave some semblance of a penalty. For Michigan, I liked Marcy’s plan. I think the 50:50 split is insulting and a cop out. There are certainly other fair solutions possible; but most people run their yaps without really knowing the true facts, mostly I think because they just don’t care about anything other than their particular candidate centric view. And I thoroughly detest arguments on this that are framed in terms of just another petty rant on Clinton. Obama people need to figure out that they have won and STFU with that crap so we can start to get the party together as a whole; and they are delusional if they think they are going to beat McCain without Clinton’s help and supporters. But hey that is just my opinion and it ain’t worth much.
Michigan and Florida delegates should not be seated. What they decide to do in 2012 is up to them.
bmaz I have to agree with on the fact the Obama can’t win with out Clinton supporters and hey how about this F1 season so far good ah
Interesting you don’t want to disenfranchise New Hampshire that also violated the rules; just two huge and critical states whose voters and activism we will desperately need in the general election. And what exactly do you base such a
benevolentopinion on?Well, I for one appreciate hearing it. So thanks.
I do think this thread illustrates very well that even without candidate bias, reasonable people can differ on what should be done here. I certainly don’t envy the party officers their position.
It has been a pretty compelling season so far in a quiet kind of way; I hope it stays close and unpredictable all the way through, the sport kind of could use that.
you mean that valerie/brewster jennings’, cover was blown before the trip to niger was discredited by cia?
Yep, I think that is what she is saying; i.e. that the Madsen stuff is not right. That info is also inconsistent with what Fitz was arguing at sentencing.
Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina should also not count.
Unbelievable that any state’s Democratic party would choose to fuck up this year. But they did.
Bush’s America, I guess, where rules are for other people.
I base my opinion on a desire to live in a land of laws. Squirming when one doesn’t like the rules is so, … so Bush.
I generally don’t disagree with that, but this whole mess was, and is, all about kissing up to Iowa and New Hampshire. While I kind of like that quaint little tradition to some extent, not enough to disenfranchise people over.
You’ve hit on an compelling framing there, and it applies both to the state parties back then, and to the national party now. Are the rules simply the rules, or are there circumstances where a sufficiently overriding need can justify breaking the rules? And if so, does a need to unify the D party in order to elect a D President this time rise to that level? Should the threshold be different for Federal laws (that BushCo have flouted) than for party rules? Are we consistent in our criticisms? Have to mull all that for a while. Thanks for the thoughtfood.
The CIA was still actively using the BJ cover when Novak outed Plame.
but still all that stuff with Grossman,Feith,Pearle,APAIC,Riggs slush funds,Bosnian arms to Al Queda,Turkey intel and nukes,Sibel Edmonds stuff seem to work in light of all these BAE/Bandar discoveries.Hell, everbody’s in on it
If I interpret what EW says about the RBC correctly, they are saying the MI caucuses aren’t a legal way to divvy delegates up, only the cluster^#k can be used.
The lake is dammed screwed up! All threads have been closed for comment. Any one know whats up?
No, but thanks for confirming it’s not just happening for me!
Sorry Marcy, back to your regularly scheduled thread…
No, it is a system malfunction. Things have been buggy for several hours behind the scenes; they are aware and working on it furiously.
I checked the sister sites and they seem to all be just fine… so it is just the Lake itself…. Trolls? Or just NSA being cute??
Sorry Marcy…
I would seat no superdelegates from either state. I would seat both delegations as is, but each delegate gets 1/2 vote (like Dems Abroad get).
Whether the candidates thought that Iowans are “churlish” has little or no effect on whether we are. I, for one, couldn’t give a clusterf*ck whether we are first or last. Just keep pushing up the price of corn. That’s what matters.
Selfish? Sure.
Churlish? I think not.
tee hee
we tried to warn you about those Michigan vegans
that’s who you should be mad at
this is clearly a Michigan vegan plot to disrupt the Democratic Primary
it’s all a part of the leftistcommiefacistliberal plot to take over the world that has been funded by the tin foil industry (sales are up 250%)
BTW, YES, those michigan vegans are responsible for the clusterfuck in florida too I told you they were more powerful than you think, or they look, or the best testing would indicate …
buy more tinfoil
I know literally hundreds of Iowans. Lived with four of em for a couple of years in college, one of which is still probably my closest friend. None of them have ever said diddly squat about the primary timing, but, as with the party powers in Michigan, I think it is at the state political level and party bigwigs that are so protective. Again, I think there are cool things about having Iowa and New Hampshire as the first two, but I’ll be damned if i think it is worth the clusterfuck we now have. I dunno, but i didn’t really mean individual Iowa citizens. I mouth off and I get in trouble; you think I would learn, but nooooooo.
Some more input to the RBC meeting, mainly on the subject of reducing the number of delegates or reducing their vote weighting to 1/2 — Florida and Michigan can only get half of delegates, DNC lawyers say. Headline’s a bit misleading as interpretation of the lawyers’ memo seems to be all over the map so far. However this does reinforce the idea that the national party is prohibited from making the call on how whatever delegates are seated get apportioned to the candidates.
Well I guess that fixes things–what will happen on Saturday is Hillruh will stomp in, everyone else will just lie down and say “how stoppid of Obahhhhhma to have done taken his name of the ballott==we’ll just give Mishoogigan and Florrridadebbiewassermanshultzisamoron to Hillruhhh right? ‘Cause she’s not only delectable she’s just so electable.
Are you planning to do a late night comedy routine Bmaz?
Have you read the agreement that the Flunk the Bar Yale law graduate signed with her own fat little hand?
Wow, looks like all options are in play:
Automatic sanctions seems to mean the 50% off option. So if the RBC decides it wants to act it can remove some or all delegates, impose discounts on the delegates’ vote weightings at the convention… or make them wear silly, embarrassing hats. (Oh wait, it’s a convention, they do that last thing anyway.) Or if RBC does not decide to act, the fallback outcome is the 50% off scenario. But if any delegates do get seated, it’s still a state party matter as to which candidate they get committed to.
But then again, the legal analysis is only input, not direction, so it’s not binding. Anything could happen.
Debbiewassermanschultz is Sauron? That explains so much…
Hey folks, if I didn’t convey @ 18 above the nature of the crap out there I perceive as being not only detrimental to the party as a whole, and the effort to prevent McCain from being elected, but detrimental to Obama himself, lookee here Pete Pierce @44 has provided a prime example. Very timely Pete.
The superdelegate flood to Obama is going to bum’s rush Clinton out of the race in about 6 days. That’s the bottom line whatever happens Saturday on the Clusterfuckey
Clusterfuck Charter Members Who Did the Voters of Michigan Wrong
I’m just wonderin’ if the Tee-shirts that say in big block letters “We Bee Clusterfuckers We Fucked the People of Michigan and we turned it into Michoogigan” will be ready for the following Super Delegates? Will the people of Michigan have the guts to learn from this:
1) Lesson #1 Vote the Michigan Clusterfuckers the hell out! They were warned soundly and they clusterfucked you anyway.
2) Lesson #2 End this mornoic byzantine method of primaries and have rotating regional ones next time around.
3) Get voting machines in this bananna republic of a country that have a frigging paper trail instead of ho humming like it’s no big deal.
The extra large Clustefuck T-Shirt Wearers:
Jennie the Jen Granholm, Governor of Michigan
Debbie the Doofus Dingell
Mark Brewer Michigan Democratic Chairman
Carl Let them Gashogs get 8mpg Forever Levin
Bart the Stupid Stupak, Rep. Michigan
Dale Kill da Voters Kildee
Debbie Stab the Voters Stabenow
Lt. Gov John Cherry
US Rep. Sander Levin
Former Governor Jim Blanchard
Lansing Mayor Virg Bernero
UAW Legislative Coordinator Nandine Nosal
Carolyn Big Cheeks Kilpatrick Michigan’s Lucky 13th
AFL-CIO President Mark Gaffney
Rants are boring. Rants about presidential candidates are feckless. Thank heaven it’s easy to skip over them on the internets.
Not that your comment was a rant, it wasn’t. I can live with that. Now I’m going to go back a couple of threads and continue with the OIG report.
What has been detrimental to the party as a whole has been the racist crap from the Clinton campaign and Clinton’s delusional efforts to cling to this primary after June 3. That’s why the Super D’s are going to bum’s rush her out. She has assassinated herself in the foot Bmaz.
I have always wondered how in the spirit of party unity/what’s best for the party you could have condoned Clinton’s words that she and McCain are qualified but Obama is not as the words of a “fine candidate” (those have often been your words to describe Clinton) and in fact she is not a fine candidate is what many of the Super Delegates are going to tell you next week.
On a more cogent note, the other day i saw someone reference Turindot. As I related back when you first mentioned the cool opera gig you are involved in, I saw this thing at the Huntington-Hartford in LA many moons ago (probably 1975). I always thought it was Turnidot. I am assuming i am just a hick and had it wrong all along?
I agree with you that this needs to be done in an adult manner, and I also agree that the rules are arbitrary and stupid. However, they ARE the rules.
The 2000 election is a prime example. If Bush had actually won Florida (he didn’t, but just pretend for a moment), then he would have been the winner of the election, because the rules dictate that the winner is chosen by the electoral college, not by the popular vote. You can argue (convincingly) that these rules are stupid and have been totally obsolete since the invention of the telegraph line, and that the whole system should be changed, but you really can’t do that after the popular vote has been cast and you’re waiting for the electoral college to meet. Nobody seriously tried to do this in 2000.
I see the Democratic primary in the same light. The whole system is absurd, and it needs to be reformed, but you really can’t do it in the middle of a primary season. Florida and Michigan were specifically told that if they moved their primaries up, they wouldn’t be recognized, and they would have to do them again. None of the candidates criticized this ruling when it was made. So Florida and Michigan both moved their primaries up, and they were told that they wouldn’t be recognized. It then became apparent that they had no plan to hold repeat primaries. Many were mildly annoyed at all this, but the general assumption back then was that one of the candidates would win an overwhelming majority of the delegates, and Florida and Michigan would then be seated at the convention. That would have been a win for both states, as they would have gotten to have an early influence on the dynamics of the race (which is what they wanted in the first place), AND they would have gotten to have their votes counted at the convention. And we would have to go through this whole drama again in 2012.
What no one counted on was that this ended up turning into a down-to-the-wire horserace, and the candidate that received the most votes in Florida and Michigan might end up losing BECAUSE OF the antics of Florida and Michigan. In all likelihood, this won’t happen, because of ANOTHER piece of idiocy that’s built into the primary process: the superdelegates. They appear to be moving in bulk to Obama, and that’s probably going to give him the edge he needs to win the nomination.
We’re now in a clusterfuck that has no good solutions. To make it even worse, people have suggested that the ALREADY ELECTED delegates are free to change their votes if they want to, and there are rumors that some of Hillary’s pledged delegates may defect to Obama. I really hope this doesn’t happen–it would be one of the few things that could make this race even more undemocratic than it already is.
I agree with Marcy on her major point: Any good solution will involve stripping Michigan and Florida of all of its superdelegates. Beyond that, I really don’t have any good ideas.
I do think that the whole system needs to be revamped by the next election cycle. I’m not optimistic, though. After eight years, we still haven’t done a damn thing about the electoral college. In fact, I don’t think anyone’s really even tried.
The DNC,lol! WHY does the DNC think they have the right to tell a STATE when they hold a primary. (answer) To control who the nominee is, my opinion FWIW.
I agree 100%. I’ve thought getting rid of EC would be the the best thing to happen to our system of government. Marcy’s oh so apt discription CF sums it up totally.
They don’t. States can hold primaries whenever they want to. Just like Florida and Michigan did. But the Democratic National Committee DOES control the Democratic National Convention, and they get to set the rules about who gets to vote there. As I said, it’s stupid and arbitrary, but those are the rules.
Can’t disagree with much of that at all. However, unlike the EC etc. in 2000, there are mechanisms (granted, maybe not clear cut ones, but nevertheless they exist) within “The Rules” you describe to still resolve this somehow or another if the Michigan and Florida powers that be and the candidates can just get on the same page, even if it is not the optimal page for any of them. Obama has won the nomination, lets get as many people happy as we can in those states, leave some penalty aspect because there should be some, play out the string until June 3, and get on with the task of beating McCain; and I think all of the former is critical to the latter.
And I also agree with your take that the entire system is screwed up. I don’t know how much I have done it here, but I have all kinds of other gripes (I know Marcy has been subjected to some of my griping on them) regarding how a candidate can “win” a state and come out with less delegates, stupid timing of the various primaries, whether caucuses are still a valid exercise and if they are how they should be structured in regard to participation and hours you can participate and yada, yada, yada. You are right, the whole thing is abominable; which is simply unforgivable after 2000 and 2004.
Darclay @54 - you may be right, I don’t know, but I have a hard time believing that. I think they are just idiots.
I still don’t understand why they don’t just redo the damn primaries, or at least have caucuses in both states. We have elections all the time in this country. It’s sort of what we’re famous for. We have lots of special elections, too. It really shouldn’t be that hard.
Obviously the EC is difficult. But moving off the EC would require a Constitutional Convention, would it not? Is this an opportune time to be opening the door to Constitutional changes? Pandora.
+My personal opinion is that we have Iowa caucus NH primary and on super Tuesday all the other states and protectorates vote. But that would make too much sense.
I wholeheartedly agreed with that for a while; I think it is too late now. Too many interests were still too petty and self interested to get it done in time.
Because, in MI, there was an irreconcilable issue.
What are you going to do with the good Dems who crossed over and voted in the GOP primary this year?
The numbers might be as high as 5%–at least. (Basically, Dem performance was 15% below what it was in almost every state–save AK and UT–this year, so probably about 7% stayed home and 5% crossed over, but those are guesses). You might be able to account for those who didn’t vote. But I think the DNC forbids people to vote in their primary if they have voted in the GOP one. That, in spite of the fact that there is a robust tradition of cross-over voting in MI, and this was an obvious year to do so, since the GOP said MI’s vote would count 50% and the Dems said it would count not at all.
So how do you resolve that? There were real logistical issues, as well, but how do you resolve that?
And much to EW’s dismay, I was willing to say “To bad, so sad” to those crossover people; but that was easy for a mope in the desert to say….
lol
I agree with the good common sense in Marcy’s continued proposal to strip the Super D’s but I don’t think that will play out that way. I think it should. But one thing I’d like to stress that Franks has underscored, is that there was no regret on Clinton’s part or her large array of supporters who are Super D’s from Michigan (I named them in the list above and left out a few) because
1) No one including the Clintons expected Obama to do jack shit in this primary, raise any money, or mount a serious challenge. It’s very much like the big fight after school where people expect the bully to take the underdog apart and the underdog ends up throwing much better punches than the bully and decking him.
2) Clinton being the thorough hypocrit and liar that she has always been didn’t give a rats ass for the people of Michigan and Florida–what the Clintons do care about is more better money for them–until they goofily figured out that one of their Michoogy or is it Michiganchoogy Metrics in their mind only and rabit people like Debbie Wasserman Shultzie Shultz and Carolyn Intrepid no matter what it says about dumping on her own African Americans Fitzpatrick (with the most pure strain of racism this country has been proud to produce) could put them over the top.
In the purest terms, Michigan and Flordia broke an agreement and the message that should really be sent to them is it’s over–try to fix things next year.
I have had it with all these threats from the Clintonistas, and the Super Delegates I’ve talked to told me they have to. There is going to be a rush and a bum’s rush come June 4.
She’s not going to be allowed to continue to primary after that date. I expect it to be ugly for her the way she wants it to be. She is not very welcome back in the Senate and all these people who say “well she can have Majority leader” have to realize that’s not going to happen ever and Clinton tried her best to hurt downticket candidates in this race as well as Obama and that’s one reason why it’s going to be ended for her next week. Clinton has been a terrific allie for McCain so far in the primary and the general, and I don’t expect any help for Obama from her and bubbah.
I thought that Modo’s article nailed them well this morning, as did many editorial opinions in the NYDNews, WaPo, and by
Can He Take a Frisk?
We need to know where that $11 million came from that you guys loaned your campaign. And the $15 million from Ron Burkle at Yucaipa and the $3 million from Vinod Gupta. And you must spill about any offshore accounts in the Caymans.
But we won’t know for a while because she will leave the race next week,and maybe the Clintons will carry these secrets to the grave.
maybe it was the choices that we had to vote for. I have many clients and friends who did not vote for Dem’s or Rep’s because of their choices. There again it is the timing of the primaries and EC that screw everything up.
I think MOLLY (RIP) would agree!
I don’t really think that’s irreconcilable, given Michigan’s history. When I lived there in 2000, one party had a caucus, and the other had a primary, and they were on different dates. It was perfectly acceptable to vote in one, switch parties, and then vote in the other. So the solution is simple: Anyone can vote in the re-do primary. I know that you could argue that Republican “spoilers” could then vote en masse in the Democratic primary, but ever since McCain clinched the Republican nom, that’s been true of every open primary that we’ve had.
Why is it “too late”? The convention isn’t until August. Is there some law that says we have to be done by June 3? On Saturday, they could tell Michigan and Florida they’ve got 3 weeks to hold some sort of repeat primary or caucus. Nobody gets to leave the meeting until they’ve hammered out the details of how it’s going to work. Everyone is allow to stamp their feet and hold their breath as often and as long as they want, but they don’t get to go home until they have an agreement.
I have nothing but mindless opinion to base this on, but I just don’t think you can get it done credibly in such big states that fast.
Well, that (plus the impossibility of having county parties arrange for caucus sites on short notice) was the final straw that broke the recount’s back.
Besides, if FL couldn’t manage it, then there was no way MI could do so.
Not to mention, I don’t think anybody is going to spend the money to fund it now that the nomination is locked up by Obama.
off topic great post at Jesus Gen.
I’m not buying that. That state can tell all of the public schools that they need their gyms for one night. They could even do them on different nights in different districts, if people really don’t want to cancel a high school volleyball game in the interest of democracy.
Not buying that, either. Florida has a well-known reputation for not being able to run elections. I’m a little surprised that Castro hasn’t offered to “help” them run a repeat primary, if they’re incapable of doing it themselves.
And to top it all off, I’m not buying that. The Republican nom was clinched a while ago. Nobody is suggesting that we cancel the rest of the Republican primaries to save money, even though they really need the cash.
As long as these primarys and caucuses are structured so that someone who applies themselves a bit still can’t understand them, i.e. that their various rules are so abstruce and byzantine that you need to be a particular state insider who has been studying them for months or helped craft them, I agree with you they are absurd. If anyone didn’t know it before this primary, then they should realize it now.
I would also advocate not only a uniformity and common sense reworking of the rules of the Democratic Primary vote, but also a revamping of the electoral college in the general as well because it creates the problems that Frank Probst described.
I would differ with you though in this. If you take the large states Clinton won by popular vote, she did not win them by decisive margins. And per the rules, she lost the delegate vote–the metric that actually counts by the current rules in Texas. She did not win big states decisively overall, in fact, and the reaons that she won the states like Kentucky and West Virginia were purely racial. In Kentucky she did not win Fayette County where Lexington and the UK Wildcats are, and Obama won Jefferson County (Louisville and its surroundings) decisively–the city where I grew up. West Virginia has 5 electoral votes, and if blacks get registered significantly for the general in the South, and they are going to turn out, we can overcome states that go racial for McCain who are letting their racism outvote their pocket books. This is the way to overcome what Maureen Dowd called this morning the HillaryHuns–those people who have been strongly democratic all their lives and so feel like because they had invested in their backing of Hillary to right all the wrongs, real and perceived that they they have experienced due to gender bias or cruelty during their lives or both.
I would say that those people who think they are going to express their indignation that Clinton lost by voting for McCain are the quintissential people who would be biting off their nose to spit their faces. If they did that actually to the tune of 25% of the Clinton population of popular votes, they have certainly tuned out the political reality of Bush, Libby, Rove, Addington and McCain.
I predict that because Super D’s have already privately committed to Obama in droves (and although Obama actually has the majority of that DNC committee in his corner but they have kept it to themselves–not Hillary as the counters think)that he is likely to let her have her sandpail and just give her a generous deal which will enable her to say she had several holes in ones because she in effect got to carry the ball to the hole in stead of actually driving , chipping , and putting the way her husband often plays golf. She will claim she won the general if she is given somehow a significant amount of Michigan and Florida votes in the fake elections that weren’t real, and the result is still going to be the same–she is going out, and in the words of Tina Turner that great political and Presidential historian in her award winning political treatise Proud Mary:
It’s the Clinton’s call–I say they finish rough and I’ll enjoy every minute of it. They aren’t going to be able to go to the Convention and snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory.
But those had to be held by law, these do not. One other thing; I’m not sure the respective legislatures are even in session to approve any plan.
Turandot is Puccini’s last opera. It is set in China, and is the story of the beautiful princess who will only marry the guy who can answer three riddles, and if he fails, he is beheaded. I have sung it twice, and loved it loved it loved it, even though we wore plastic masks and fat suits, and sang on a raked stage, so raked that we were in some danger of slipping, and stood for 25 minutes during the big scene at the end of the second act. I have seen it several times, in Fiesole at a Roman Amphitheater, and at the Met, and have a DVD of a production in China outdoors at the Forbidden City.
If you go to the Nashville Opera site, and click on the Sword Fight Scene from Romeo and Juliet, you will see and hear me and my friends.
Well, I knew all that, I saw the damn thing. Apparently I am just an idiot and have had the name wrong all these years. Heh, just looked at teh Google; I am not the only one!
Post 17, the baseball analogy. fitting except for one thing. I would change the anology to be that the car is a bus. The bus has 50 people on it. All 50 people lose their licenses…not just the driver. Because that is essentially what happened. Now if the people of Michigan had voted to hold the election early…we might have a different situation.
That was the problem with the consequences in the first place. It was a consequence levied against innocent people. This is like a parent making a stupid punishment. You either stick with the punishment and find a valuable lesson in it for your kid, OR you modify the consequence.
The consequence needs to be modified because it is a consequence to the wrong people. They, in a very Bushco manner chose to give the consequence to the innocent people of michigan rather then levy a personal consequence or business consequence against the folks who made the decision.
You’ve made a lot of comments about how a do-over would be difficult, and I agree. I just don’t think it’s impossible. But of all your arguments, I have the least sympathy for this one. If these assholes could go to Lansing and Tallahassee to fuck everything up, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask them to hold a special session to come back and fix it all again.
Oops, misunderstood.
Unfortunately, a representative government means that elected officials sometimes do things that turn out to be very bad for the people they represent. The 4,000+ Americans who have died in Iraq didn’t have a democratic vote to go to war over there. Nevertheless, they had to pay the ultimate price for their government’s foolishness.
Speaking of funding, the DNC has until June 16 to raise a bunch of million dollars (I forget the amount at the moment and it’s going to be Obama that bails them out. Denver has appealed to “civic pride” and that appeal has been a bust. I don’t know if you knew but Clinton is so livid that she has refused to help them–how’s that for party unity and fparty spirit. She has fed money from the library contribution deals into her campaigns from very very anti-US sources by the way, and she is refusing to make any effort to help the convention although she is a hundred million to two hundred millionairess.
See this article by mMark Halpern on The Page:
Obama-DNC Fundraising Deal
I agree, I was just correcting the speeding ticket analogy.
So, it would be more like this. The Bus driver was elected to drive the bus. The bus driver then chose to speed, but the people didn’t know that this was the decision this bus driver would make, they just had chosen the bus driver to make decisions. So the bus driver gets caught speeding and the result is that everyone else on the bus then lost their right to drive.
Is that more realistic?
I am really sick of your anti-Clinton shit; it is counterproductive and does not wear well, nor does it particularly make you look very good. Your efforts here could be far better placed.
Yep Frank and as Scottie Mac’s book on sale in some large cities now, and everywhere Tuesday is saying, because Bush felt that all those people dead and the thousands more that will follow were part of the expedient equation so that he could be perceived as a great President.
As Ariana Huffington says it’s “Scottie Come Lately” but better come lately than never I guess. While McClelland didn’t have much in the way of experience to ever be WH press secratary carrying on a long tradition in this White House, his book raises the question as to why he did not leave in protest knowing what he knew, and should give Fitz some interesting reading as he sweats a mistrial going into week 3 of the Rezko jury.
Too bad Fitzie isn’t blogging on Scottie’s book.
ot: cia-on-trial update from italy re. kidnap of radical egyptian cleric in milan.
“In his testimony, Megale revealed that one telephone number he recognized was that of Robert Seldon Lady, then-CIA station chief in Milan. Lady and Megale had worked together in counter-terrorism investigations. It was a number, Megale said somberly, that he and his team knew.”
http://www.latimes.com/news/na.....5725.story
Wish that I would have said that (as he crawls back under his Democratic comfort blankie).
Masaccio - Just read about the Paul House case. What the hell is going on in your neck of the woods there? Yikes.
I’m sorry you are construing my comments that way here, because while they may be construed that way on Cliff’s blog, they aren’t anything but reporting the facts.
We need for the DNC to have funding. It’s ironic that the Republicans who I view on the same page as you have the funding for their convention and the Dems are sweating it. I reported correctly that Obama is going to bail them out. Clinton has refused to lift one finger to support them Bmaz as Mark Halpern reported and I linked.
I cannot see how someone as nuanced as you are could believe that it is helpful for Clinton to carry this fight to the end of August convention and make no mistake about it, that’s precisely what she is going to try to do. I leave it to you to figure out the result. I objectively think that although I have always supported her right to carry out the campaign to the end, but objected to her methods vigorously, I do not believe her efforts to go to Denver with this fight are anything but lethal to the Democratic effort to get the Presidency and to get the many talented downticket Senatorial candidates I have heard about including one I know as well as the House candidates.
What you have perceived as “anti-Clinton shit” of my making is not anti-Clinton shit of my making, it is precisely what is happening on the ground. I did not tell them to do and say the things they have done. I did not tell them not to support the DNC with their $200 million bucks and a license to print more. They made that choice this week. Clinton’s large money contributors have been threatening the DNC all month. They have money to burn made from ridiculously unfair hedgefund rules, and they are trying to use it as blackmail and it has not worked. They have witheld money from the DNC they would ordinarily have been glad to give because they want to force their way, and it has not worked. Fortunately the DNC has someone to turn to who appreciates unity.