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	<title>Comments on: CIA Once Again Buries Information on Abu Zubaydah&#8217;s Torture</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/</link>
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		<title>By: whitewidow</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/#comment-70033</link>
		<dc:creator>whitewidow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 21:45:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/#comment-70033</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Do we know what the other site in Iraq was? &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I know that two contractor whistleblowers, Vance and Ertel, were thrown in Camp Cropper and subjected to physical and mental interrogation techniques. One of them was held for 97 days as a “security risk”. This was after the two men went to the embassy for help. Instead they got a trip to Camp Cropper. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The other interesting thing, they were periodically sending information about the fraud to an FBI agent in Chicago, because they didn’t trust anyone in Iraq. The FBI agent in Chicago ratted them out.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I am wondering how many Americans may have been given “the treatment”.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do we know what the other site in Iraq was? </p>
<p>I know that two contractor whistleblowers, Vance and Ertel, were thrown in Camp Cropper and subjected to physical and mental interrogation techniques. One of them was held for 97 days as a “security risk”. This was after the two men went to the embassy for help. Instead they got a trip to Camp Cropper. </p>
<p>The other interesting thing, they were periodically sending information about the fraud to an FBI agent in Chicago, because they didn’t trust anyone in Iraq. The FBI agent in Chicago ratted them out.</p>
<p>I am wondering how many Americans may have been given “the treatment”.</p>
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		<title>By: SparklestheIguana</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/#comment-70027</link>
		<dc:creator>SparklestheIguana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 21:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Maybe he was sodomized.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe he was sodomized.</p>
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		<title>By: LS</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/#comment-70020</link>
		<dc:creator>LS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 21:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/#comment-70020</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;“Finally, the fact that Zubaydah could make false allegations against CIA employees–&lt;strong&gt;as could other detainees&lt;/strong&gt;–was not in our view a legitimate reason to object to our access to him.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Yup, something is up.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Finally, the fact that Zubaydah could make false allegations against CIA employees–<strong>as could other detainees</strong>–was not in our view a legitimate reason to object to our access to him.”</p>
<p>Yup, something is up.</p>
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		<title>By: LS</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/#comment-70019</link>
		<dc:creator>LS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 21:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/#comment-70019</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;EW, your timeline rawks!!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EW, your timeline rawks!!</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/#comment-70016</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 21:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/#comment-70016</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I can’t get a search function to work on the pdf and don’t have time to read it now, but the few places my eyes lighted are fully of Mueller and his crew being unable to remember.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;No mentions that I could find of KSM’s children and DOJ/FBI’s knowledge/participation, or for el-Masri or Arar etc.   NO questioning of Thompson on his sign off to send Arar to Syria? No mention of the FBI trying to send a detainee to Jordan or Egypt to get fried (although that could be what is redacted at the bottom of 128)  No mention of coverups of Padilla treatment or the DOJ Nifongesque press conf there.  Mentions of Coleman and Cloonan?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But the biggest hole in all of it that I can see from a quick glance is that no one mentions anyone, throughout the whole of the DOJ, ever looking at any of the allegations and things being done and saying, “hmm, there’s a good possiblity of litigation later about these things, we are ehtically required to advise everyone to keep and hold all documents, recordings, digitized information, notes, etc.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And a subtheme that emerges when you look at binalshibh, Higazy, Slahi, etc. is just how much Bush torturers LOVE to threaten the rape and abuse of mothers and female family members and the torture of children.  Threaten or arrange.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There are also references to beatings and rape on video at Abu Ghraib being offered up to FBI, with the FBI guys not wanting to know about it. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Kudos to Horton (must be in the name) for recognizing (p 136) “even if the FBI was not present during such interrogations, FBI agents would be inherently participating in the process because they would be interviewing detainees who had either recently been subjected to such techniques by the military or who would be subjected to them after the FBI interviews were completed.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;To bad no one with the “Clean Team” ethics trust feels the same. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Anyone who finds any white hats amongst Mueller’s upper echelons is working off the new, improved greyscale. Just look at how being so successfully forgetful has worked out for Wainstein. And I very much like the heroisms from Daniel Levin, who (p. 73) said they didn’t have to get FBI agents directly involved in torture because, well, gosh - “other agencies were available to do it.” Plural.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Evil. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I guess that should be plural as well.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can’t get a search function to work on the pdf and don’t have time to read it now, but the few places my eyes lighted are fully of Mueller and his crew being unable to remember.  </p>
<p>No mentions that I could find of KSM’s children and DOJ/FBI’s knowledge/participation, or for el-Masri or Arar etc.   NO questioning of Thompson on his sign off to send Arar to Syria? No mention of the FBI trying to send a detainee to Jordan or Egypt to get fried (although that could be what is redacted at the bottom of 128)  No mention of coverups of Padilla treatment or the DOJ Nifongesque press conf there.  Mentions of Coleman and Cloonan?</p>
<p>But the biggest hole in all of it that I can see from a quick glance is that no one mentions anyone, throughout the whole of the DOJ, ever looking at any of the allegations and things being done and saying, “hmm, there’s a good possiblity of litigation later about these things, we are ehtically required to advise everyone to keep and hold all documents, recordings, digitized information, notes, etc.”</p>
<p>And a subtheme that emerges when you look at binalshibh, Higazy, Slahi, etc. is just how much Bush torturers LOVE to threaten the rape and abuse of mothers and female family members and the torture of children.  Threaten or arrange.  </p>
<p>There are also references to beatings and rape on video at Abu Ghraib being offered up to FBI, with the FBI guys not wanting to know about it. </p>
<p>Kudos to Horton (must be in the name) for recognizing (p 136) “even if the FBI was not present during such interrogations, FBI agents would be inherently participating in the process because they would be interviewing detainees who had either recently been subjected to such techniques by the military or who would be subjected to them after the FBI interviews were completed.”</p>
<p>To bad no one with the “Clean Team” ethics trust feels the same. </p>
<p>Anyone who finds any white hats amongst Mueller’s upper echelons is working off the new, improved greyscale. Just look at how being so successfully forgetful has worked out for Wainstein. And I very much like the heroisms from Daniel Levin, who (p. 73) said they didn’t have to get FBI agents directly involved in torture because, well, gosh &#8211; “other agencies were available to do it.” Plural.  </p>
<p>Evil. </p>
<p>I guess that should be plural as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Loo Hoo.</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/#comment-70014</link>
		<dc:creator>Loo Hoo.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 21:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Fuzzing it up is a common practice in government. You hide intention and responsibility. You have one person say one thing, and another person the exact opposite. You create a blizzard of paper, so much paper that actual evidence is lost in the glut. And of course, you deny anything and everything you can deny — particularly the obvious. (Denying the obvious is always popular.) You produce noise, distraction and confusion. People rarely think of this as a well-established bureaucratic technique, but it is a tried and true methodology. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Morris, NYT&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Fuzzing it up is a common practice in government. You hide intention and responsibility. You have one person say one thing, and another person the exact opposite. You create a blizzard of paper, so much paper that actual evidence is lost in the glut. And of course, you deny anything and everything you can deny — particularly the obvious. (Denying the obvious is always popular.) You produce noise, distraction and confusion. People rarely think of this as a well-established bureaucratic technique, but it is a tried and true methodology. </p>
</blockquote>
<p>Morris, NYT</p>
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		<title>By: der1</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/#comment-70013</link>
		<dc:creator>der1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 21:01:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/#comment-70013</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The approved options were first applied after the capture in March 2002 of Abu Zubaydah, a senior Qaeda figure. Mr. Rizzo was responsible for the legal advice to the officers holding him in Thailand as they escalated physical and mental pressure.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But colleagues said Mr. Rizzo insisted on Justice Department approval for actions they knew might be second-guessed. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The intelligence officers’ conviction that the political and legal winds would shift has proved accurate. A Justice Department memorandum in 2002 declared that nothing short of the pain associated with organ failure constituted illegal torture; the department later withdrew it&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/19/washington/19rizzo.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06.....rizzo.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Of course Rizzo’s response would be to hide his role in this, eh?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The approved options were first applied after the capture in March 2002 of Abu Zubaydah, a senior Qaeda figure. Mr. Rizzo was responsible for the legal advice to the officers holding him in Thailand as they escalated physical and mental pressure.</p>
<p>But colleagues said Mr. Rizzo insisted on Justice Department approval for actions they knew might be second-guessed. </p>
<p>The intelligence officers’ conviction that the political and legal winds would shift has proved accurate. A Justice Department memorandum in 2002 declared that nothing short of the pain associated with organ failure constituted illegal torture; the department later withdrew it<br />
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/19/washington/19rizzo.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06&#8230;..rizzo.html</a></p>
<p>Of course Rizzo’s response would be to hide his role in this, eh?</p>
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		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/#comment-70012</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 20:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;He is–he has spoken to another HVD at Gitmo (I don’t remember whom). But he wasn’t included in those charged for 9/11 (I asked Miami Herald’s Carol Rosenberg if she had heard anything about him being charged and she hadn’t), so I’m beginning to wonder whether they’re just not going to charge him.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He is–he has spoken to another HVD at Gitmo (I don’t remember whom). But he wasn’t included in those charged for 9/11 (I asked Miami Herald’s Carol Rosenberg if she had heard anything about him being charged and she hadn’t), so I’m beginning to wonder whether they’re just not going to charge him.</p>
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		<title>By: JimWhite</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/#comment-70011</link>
		<dc:creator>JimWhite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 20:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Would it be clear from the tapes that he is clearly more mentally disabled now than he was before the torture started?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would it be clear from the tapes that he is clearly more mentally disabled now than he was before the torture started?</p>
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		<title>By: LS</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/05/20/cia-once-again-buries-information-on-abu-zubaydahs-torture/#comment-70008</link>
		<dc:creator>LS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 20:43:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Is he for sure still alive?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is he for sure still alive?</p>
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