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	<title>Comments on: Fitz v. Rove, Part VI</title>
	<atom:link href="http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/</link>
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		<title>By: MartyDidier</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/comment-page-2/#comment-66314</link>
		<dc:creator>MartyDidier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:31:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/#comment-66314</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;This is a great series of articles.  This particular subject is a good example but needs to be expanded many times.  There is that I’m personally aware of other examples with people of nearly the same level of importance as Fitz who were actually affected in the same manner.  One in particular is featured on the Internet however I’m not able to discuss any detail at this time.  Sorry but later I’ll be able to talk more about this.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;However one main question that needs to be asked is WHY?  And what is the bigger picture that this supports?  Many of my posts touch on issues that for most may be difficult to believe but please remember for more than 26 years I lived in a family who is part of these issues.  And it’s not to mention the years that followed of what I had to deal with too.  A bigger picture exists and there is also a huge support network to protect it.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A side issue:  The Rezko trial in Chicago does surface a number of interesting issues to consider.  And for me, this is personal as my youngest son is involved with Rezko.  However there is much more that still will need to be said to explain what the bigger picture is all about and that is expected to eventually happen.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Marty Didier&lt;br /&gt;
Northbrook, IL&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a great series of articles.  This particular subject is a good example but needs to be expanded many times.  There is that I’m personally aware of other examples with people of nearly the same level of importance as Fitz who were actually affected in the same manner.  One in particular is featured on the Internet however I’m not able to discuss any detail at this time.  Sorry but later I’ll be able to talk more about this.</p>
<p>However one main question that needs to be asked is WHY?  And what is the bigger picture that this supports?  Many of my posts touch on issues that for most may be difficult to believe but please remember for more than 26 years I lived in a family who is part of these issues.  And it’s not to mention the years that followed of what I had to deal with too.  A bigger picture exists and there is also a huge support network to protect it.  </p>
<p>A side issue:  The Rezko trial in Chicago does surface a number of interesting issues to consider.  And for me, this is personal as my youngest son is involved with Rezko.  However there is much more that still will need to be said to explain what the bigger picture is all about and that is expected to eventually happen.</p>
<p>Marty Didier<br />
Northbrook, IL</p>
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		<title>By: SparklestheIguana</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/comment-page-2/#comment-66217</link>
		<dc:creator>SparklestheIguana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/#comment-66217</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;If I recall correctly……&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I recall correctly……</p>
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		<title>By: timethief</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/comment-page-2/#comment-66214</link>
		<dc:creator>timethief</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/#comment-66214</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Please define IIRC.I feelbehind the curve. Thanks&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please define IIRC.I feelbehind the curve. Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: kspena</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/comment-page-2/#comment-66207</link>
		<dc:creator>kspena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:06:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/#comment-66207</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Apparently Phil Giraldi at anti-war is saying that indeed there is a war between the highest levels of US and Israeli intell; the leaks are coming from Israelis who don’t want war. The hope is that this revelation will cause the disruption of the testimony of hard-line Israeli intell officers to US congress next week. The hope is they won’t appear in this climate of suspicion.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently Phil Giraldi at anti-war is saying that indeed there is a war between the highest levels of US and Israeli intell; the leaks are coming from Israelis who don’t want war. The hope is that this revelation will cause the disruption of the testimony of hard-line Israeli intell officers to US congress next week. The hope is they won’t appear in this climate of suspicion.</p>
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		<title>By: Rayne</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/comment-page-2/#comment-66202</link>
		<dc:creator>Rayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:53:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/#comment-66202</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Ah, the ultimate corruption.  They are asking us to forsake the reality of torture and subscribe to its simulation.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;Simulacra and Simulation&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This is why “24″ is so bloody dangerous; they point to it as if it were real, Jack Bauer saving the world through a simulation of torture, becoming simulacra as reality is completely rejected and obsoleted by the progressive preference for the the unreal model of torture as salvation.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We are damned as long as we cannot transcend this breach with reality.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, the ultimate corruption.  They are asking us to forsake the reality of torture and subscribe to its simulation.</p>
<p><i>Simulacra and Simulation</i>.</p>
<p>This is why “24″ is so bloody dangerous; they point to it as if it were real, Jack Bauer saving the world through a simulation of torture, becoming simulacra as reality is completely rejected and obsoleted by the progressive preference for the the unreal model of torture as salvation.</p>
<p>We are damned as long as we cannot transcend this breach with reality.</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/comment-page-2/#comment-66197</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:42:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/#comment-66197</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Oh heavens no, of course not.  Cause Rover is such a fine upstanding chap….&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh heavens no, of course not.  Cause Rover is such a fine upstanding chap….</p>
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		<title>By: SparklestheIguana</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/comment-page-2/#comment-66196</link>
		<dc:creator>SparklestheIguana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:37:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/#comment-66196</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well, for what it’s worth, Peter Fitzgerald is certain that Rove would not have tried to remove PatFitz.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.suntimes.com/news/brown/912860,CST-NWS-brown24.article&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.suntimes.com/news/b.....24.article&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;(I didn’t know that Rove was Peter Fitzgerald’s campaign strategist when PetFitz was running against Carol Moseley Braun for Carol’s Senate seat.)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, for what it’s worth, Peter Fitzgerald is certain that Rove would not have tried to remove PatFitz.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.suntimes.com/news/brown/912860,CST-NWS-brown24.article" rel="nofollow">http://www.suntimes.com/news/b&#8230;..24.article</a></p>
<p>(I didn’t know that Rove was Peter Fitzgerald’s campaign strategist when PetFitz was running against Carol Moseley Braun for Carol’s Senate seat.)</p>
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		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/comment-page-2/#comment-66182</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/#comment-66182</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Mary&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;You are utterly and totally missing my point. I understand what you’re saying, I just think it is strategically counterproductive and possibly much weaker than you claim. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What I don’t understand is why you–someone who knows better–would choose THIS to go after BushCo on, rather than any of the huge number of other equally clear-cut cases, when in doing so you would rhetorically give credit to Libby’s story.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’m making a pragmatic argument. I’m saying people who know that Cheney ordered Libby to leak Plame’s identity–and who focus on anything but that–are helping to perpetuate Libby’s story.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Furthermore, your covert argument falls flat when it becomes clear that Condi &lt;strong&gt;overtly&lt;/strong&gt;, back in June, leaked some of the things you’re so wrapped up in Libby leaking covertly. Or that Libby provided them overtly to Sanger with his press aide present before he gave them to Judy covertly. If you really want to go that route, go after Wolfowitz with the Jan 24 document, not Libby and Judy. But don’t become a willing participant in Libby’s lies.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mary</p>
<p>You are utterly and totally missing my point. I understand what you’re saying, I just think it is strategically counterproductive and possibly much weaker than you claim. </p>
<p>What I don’t understand is why you–someone who knows better–would choose THIS to go after BushCo on, rather than any of the huge number of other equally clear-cut cases, when in doing so you would rhetorically give credit to Libby’s story.</p>
<p>I’m making a pragmatic argument. I’m saying people who know that Cheney ordered Libby to leak Plame’s identity–and who focus on anything but that–are helping to perpetuate Libby’s story.</p>
<p>Furthermore, your covert argument falls flat when it becomes clear that Condi <strong>overtly</strong>, back in June, leaked some of the things you’re so wrapped up in Libby leaking covertly. Or that Libby provided them overtly to Sanger with his press aide present before he gave them to Judy covertly. If you really want to go that route, go after Wolfowitz with the Jan 24 document, not Libby and Judy. But don’t become a willing participant in Libby’s lies.</p>
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		<title>By: behindthefall</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/comment-page-2/#comment-66179</link>
		<dc:creator>behindthefall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/#comment-66179</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;In response to behindthefall @ 142 &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In response to bobschacht @ 141&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What ticks me off at this moment is that this isn’t what I would call ‘parsing’: it’s something else — I just can’t come up with the proper term for it. I LIKE parsing. Parsing is fun. Parsing clarifies how a language works. This ain’t parsing. This is being a &lt;a href=&quot;mailto:smart@ss.&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;smart@ss.&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I was not trying to be a smart-ass, but rather playing back to you what the MSmedia means when the word “parsing” comes up. Not MSM, but see for example The Politics of Parsing, and Chris Cilizza’s column, “Parsing the Polls on Bill and Hillary Clinton,” including the comment Posted by Helena Montana on July 26, 2006 8:30 AM that &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The word “parse” related to politics rather than grammar came into usage during the Clinton/Lewinsky affair (pun intended). &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I am unable at this time to do a more thorough history at this time. I agree that it is a distortion of what true parsing means. Perhaps the operative word should be “deconstruct”, as in “It depends on how you deconstruct the word ‘is’.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;=====================================================&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Bob, if you’re still here — it’s Thursday AM now — (and if Bob’s not around, somebody please pass this on to him) — I most certainly was NOT saying that you were acting badly. I see now that I had conflated two gripes:  1.  using a string of narrowly-directed verbs to intentionally fail to cover all possibilities while giving the impression that all possibilities were being dealt with, and then some, and 2. calling that behavior ‘parsing’.  The person who does the former, I was suggesting, might be a, well, you know. My apologies for phrasing that rant in a way that could be misunderstood.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to behindthefall @ 142 </p>
<p>In response to bobschacht @ 141</p>
<p>What ticks me off at this moment is that this isn’t what I would call ‘parsing’: it’s something else — I just can’t come up with the proper term for it. I LIKE parsing. Parsing is fun. Parsing clarifies how a language works. This ain’t parsing. This is being a <a href="mailto:smart@ss." rel="nofollow">smart@ss.</a></p>
<p>I was not trying to be a smart-ass, but rather playing back to you what the MSmedia means when the word “parsing” comes up. Not MSM, but see for example The Politics of Parsing, and Chris Cilizza’s column, “Parsing the Polls on Bill and Hillary Clinton,” including the comment Posted by Helena Montana on July 26, 2006 8:30 AM that </p>
<p>The word “parse” related to politics rather than grammar came into usage during the Clinton/Lewinsky affair (pun intended). </p>
<p>I am unable at this time to do a more thorough history at this time. I agree that it is a distortion of what true parsing means. Perhaps the operative word should be “deconstruct”, as in “It depends on how you deconstruct the word ‘is’.”</p>
<p>=====================================================</p>
<p>Bob, if you’re still here — it’s Thursday AM now — (and if Bob’s not around, somebody please pass this on to him) — I most certainly was NOT saying that you were acting badly. I see now that I had conflated two gripes:  1.  using a string of narrowly-directed verbs to intentionally fail to cover all possibilities while giving the impression that all possibilities were being dealt with, and then some, and 2. calling that behavior ‘parsing’.  The person who does the former, I was suggesting, might be a, well, you know. My apologies for phrasing that rant in a way that could be misunderstood.</p>
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		<title>By: bmaz</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/comment-page-2/#comment-66178</link>
		<dc:creator>bmaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/23/rove-v-fitz-part-vi/#comment-66178</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Ah Jeepers WO; have mercy, haven’t the folks in your neck of the woods been doing enough damage to us poor desert dwellers what with what the Spurs are doing to the Suns and all?  Now you have to go and beat up on my excitement over this?  Seriously though, yeah, it struck me as a fairly significant deal.  It is one thing to see something nefarious as patently obvious, but quite another (at least to my pin head lawyer brain) to start getting sworn declarations by the opposition that you are correct.  Then you toss in all the involvement of the OLC on the issue, it is just frosting on the cake.  This isn’t just the authorization of torture, that I agree we have had down pat for quite a while and then boosted by the Yoo memo release and “principals” meetings etc., but the key here is that they have now point blankedly admitted, again apparently in sworn declarations, that they intentionally destroyed the torture tapes with the direct knowledge that they were material evidence of criminal, civil and administrative charges against them were “inevitable”.  To my mind, that smacks of a direct admission to obstruction of justice and destruction of evidence of governmental crimes.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah Jeepers WO; have mercy, haven’t the folks in your neck of the woods been doing enough damage to us poor desert dwellers what with what the Spurs are doing to the Suns and all?  Now you have to go and beat up on my excitement over this?  Seriously though, yeah, it struck me as a fairly significant deal.  It is one thing to see something nefarious as patently obvious, but quite another (at least to my pin head lawyer brain) to start getting sworn declarations by the opposition that you are correct.  Then you toss in all the involvement of the OLC on the issue, it is just frosting on the cake.  This isn’t just the authorization of torture, that I agree we have had down pat for quite a while and then boosted by the Yoo memo release and “principals” meetings etc., but the key here is that they have now point blankedly admitted, again apparently in sworn declarations, that they intentionally destroyed the torture tapes with the direct knowledge that they were material evidence of criminal, civil and administrative charges against them were “inevitable”.  To my mind, that smacks of a direct admission to obstruction of justice and destruction of evidence of governmental crimes.</p>
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