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	<title>Comments on: The NYT Does Penance?</title>
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		<title>By: timbo</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/comment-page-1/#comment-65294</link>
		<dc:creator>timbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:56:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/#comment-65294</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It seems that in Bush’s America, folks are confusing ‘irony’ with ‘galling’ more and more.  Why is that?  You know, there is little humor in that pathology of the NYTs and the Bush thugs.  It is sad that we have come to the point of treating the debacle of American journalism and American government as if it were an entertainment show.  I suppose it is an entertainment show in a way, especially for those who don’t or won’t do anything to fix it and sit and chew their popcorn, like so many of us do when we can’t think of anything better…or are too lazy to.  As for me and I suspect some others here at Firedoglake, the laugh-track has grown stale.  Thank you for reporting and commenting on this and all important issues.  I encourage others to think less about these instances as laughing matters and to get down to the real problem…and that is how does one right a society that has been taken over by thugs and their wars and has co-opted the American press and popular opinion to such an extent that not even the legal apparatus of the United States can function to right the boat.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that in Bush’s America, folks are confusing ‘irony’ with ‘galling’ more and more.  Why is that?  You know, there is little humor in that pathology of the NYTs and the Bush thugs.  It is sad that we have come to the point of treating the debacle of American journalism and American government as if it were an entertainment show.  I suppose it is an entertainment show in a way, especially for those who don’t or won’t do anything to fix it and sit and chew their popcorn, like so many of us do when we can’t think of anything better…or are too lazy to.  As for me and I suspect some others here at Firedoglake, the laugh-track has grown stale.  Thank you for reporting and commenting on this and all important issues.  I encourage others to think less about these instances as laughing matters and to get down to the real problem…and that is how does one right a society that has been taken over by thugs and their wars and has co-opted the American press and popular opinion to such an extent that not even the legal apparatus of the United States can function to right the boat.</p>
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		<title>By: Rayne</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/comment-page-1/#comment-65233</link>
		<dc:creator>Rayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/#comment-65233</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Did the UAW head formally commit to voting Clinton at the convention or were they not asked?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did the UAW head formally commit to voting Clinton at the convention or were they not asked?</p>
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		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/comment-page-1/#comment-65203</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/#comment-65203</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Agree–but when you think about it, that intangible “something” is the same intangible “something” that journalists get for favorable coverage. No, I don’t think the Administration ever paid Judy Judy Judy for her PR favors. But they sure awarded her with a plum Iraq assignment. Pity for Judy Judy Judy it backfired so badly (not).&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree–but when you think about it, that intangible “something” is the same intangible “something” that journalists get for favorable coverage. No, I don’t think the Administration ever paid Judy Judy Judy for her PR favors. But they sure awarded her with a plum Iraq assignment. Pity for Judy Judy Judy it backfired so badly (not).</p>
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		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/comment-page-1/#comment-65202</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:46:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/#comment-65202</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Intersting. In CD 15, the Clinton campaign had whittled the list of potential Clinton delegates down to about 12, eliminating (among others) the head of the Youth Caucus for MI, and one of the only Latinos present. Which I guess makes it easier to pick…&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The head of UAW in our CD was one of the Clinton delegates selected.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Intersting. In CD 15, the Clinton campaign had whittled the list of potential Clinton delegates down to about 12, eliminating (among others) the head of the Youth Caucus for MI, and one of the only Latinos present. Which I guess makes it easier to pick…</p>
<p>The head of UAW in our CD was one of the Clinton delegates selected.</p>
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		<title>By: Mauimom</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/comment-page-1/#comment-65194</link>
		<dc:creator>Mauimom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 10:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/#comment-65194</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;The media have spent the last 7 years repeating every bit of spin this Administration has fed them. They have not covered or downplayed stories critical of the Administration.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And these nimrods will probably “wake up” — or at least put on a show of appearing to wake up — just in time to pile on to a Democratic president &amp; Congress.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Upstairs description of the debate as “journalistic dodgeball:”  CLASSIC!!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The media have spent the last 7 years repeating every bit of spin this Administration has fed them. They have not covered or downplayed stories critical of the Administration.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>And these nimrods will probably “wake up” — or at least put on a show of appearing to wake up — just in time to pile on to a Democratic president &amp; Congress.</p>
<p>Upstairs description of the debate as “journalistic dodgeball:”  CLASSIC!!</p>
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		<title>By: rkilowatt</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/comment-page-1/#comment-65172</link>
		<dc:creator>rkilowatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:41:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/#comment-65172</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Have to weigh-in on quid pro quo…and from personal knowledge. “Something for something” is is a vital consideration.&lt;br /&gt;
To ever say that there was no “something” received in return is absurd. One can only say there was nothing found or nothing obvious.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Author Barstow speaks from inexperience , lack of imagination, deliberate not-knowing or to collect a reward for lying.&lt;br /&gt;
There is always “something” exchanged, even if only a favor to a friend to receive a good feeling or pride, or ensure continuity of the relationship; or to a non-friend to accomplish his disappearance.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Often, the key to “no”&lt;em&gt;quid pro quo &lt;/em&gt;is merely the untraceability of the “something”, such as oft stated desire to hire the other after his retirement; or PR’ing the other fellow for a later benefit.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It really only takes imagination to create untraceable “somethings” with utterly no documentation.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have to weigh-in on quid pro quo…and from personal knowledge. “Something for something” is is a vital consideration.<br />
To ever say that there was no “something” received in return is absurd. One can only say there was nothing found or nothing obvious.</p>
<p>Author Barstow speaks from inexperience , lack of imagination, deliberate not-knowing or to collect a reward for lying.<br />
There is always “something” exchanged, even if only a favor to a friend to receive a good feeling or pride, or ensure continuity of the relationship; or to a non-friend to accomplish his disappearance.</p>
<p>Often, the key to “no”<em>quid pro quo </em>is merely the untraceability of the “something”, such as oft stated desire to hire the other after his retirement; or PR’ing the other fellow for a later benefit.</p>
<p>It really only takes imagination to create untraceable “somethings” with utterly no documentation.</p>
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		<title>By: Rayne</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/comment-page-1/#comment-65138</link>
		<dc:creator>Rayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 00:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/#comment-65138</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;In re: the politicking –&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I attended the 4th congressional district’s convention.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There were 89 voters in the Uncommitted caucus, 49 in the Clinton caucus.  Not exactly a good indicator for Clinton, in a district that has trended red.  The Uncommitted caucus participants were clearly NOT CLINTON supporters, as they were very happy when both selected Uncommitted Delegates said they would support Obama should they go to Colorado.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The Uncommitted caucus finished earlier than the Clinton caucus, in spite of the size of the group and the number of potential delegates running for the two seats.  They had no problems whittling it down to the two folks who’d been working for the Obama campaign for as long as 14 months.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There was only one formal member of the Clinton campaign in attendance, and they’ve only been working for that campaign for a few months.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Across the entire 4th district in attendance, there were (2) people wearing Clinton buttons.  In contrast, there were (8) folks wearing Obama buttons, (2) more people wearing Obama t-shirts, and at least (3) people with Obama signs and bumper stickers.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Lastly, one of the delegate candidates was a high school teacher, who in explaining why he wanted our vote, said that of his 300 students in a northern Michigan public school, that he had no problems finding kids to represent Obama’s and McCain’s campaigns in a mock election exercise, but NONE to represent Clinton.  (For this reason I am so sorry that we couldn’t elect a second male delegate; this person clearly wanted to teach his students more about democracy by example.)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;(I have some reservations about what actually happened in the Clinton caucus, which I did not observe; there were UAW members in that caucus, while the bulk of UAW downstate were in the Obama camp.  Was there some effort to shape delegate outcome here?  Hmm.)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The energy in this overwhelmingly white district isn’t with Clinton. They will be very disappointed if the outcome of Michigan’s delegates and superdelegates does not match the energy.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In re: the politicking –</p>
<p>I attended the 4th congressional district’s convention.</p>
<p>There were 89 voters in the Uncommitted caucus, 49 in the Clinton caucus.  Not exactly a good indicator for Clinton, in a district that has trended red.  The Uncommitted caucus participants were clearly NOT CLINTON supporters, as they were very happy when both selected Uncommitted Delegates said they would support Obama should they go to Colorado.</p>
<p>The Uncommitted caucus finished earlier than the Clinton caucus, in spite of the size of the group and the number of potential delegates running for the two seats.  They had no problems whittling it down to the two folks who’d been working for the Obama campaign for as long as 14 months.</p>
<p>There was only one formal member of the Clinton campaign in attendance, and they’ve only been working for that campaign for a few months.</p>
<p>Across the entire 4th district in attendance, there were (2) people wearing Clinton buttons.  In contrast, there were (8) folks wearing Obama buttons, (2) more people wearing Obama t-shirts, and at least (3) people with Obama signs and bumper stickers.  </p>
<p>Lastly, one of the delegate candidates was a high school teacher, who in explaining why he wanted our vote, said that of his 300 students in a northern Michigan public school, that he had no problems finding kids to represent Obama’s and McCain’s campaigns in a mock election exercise, but NONE to represent Clinton.  (For this reason I am so sorry that we couldn’t elect a second male delegate; this person clearly wanted to teach his students more about democracy by example.)</p>
<p>(I have some reservations about what actually happened in the Clinton caucus, which I did not observe; there were UAW members in that caucus, while the bulk of UAW downstate were in the Obama camp.  Was there some effort to shape delegate outcome here?  Hmm.)</p>
<p>The energy in this overwhelmingly white district isn’t with Clinton. They will be very disappointed if the outcome of Michigan’s delegates and superdelegates does not match the energy.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/comment-page-1/#comment-65126</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/#comment-65126</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Based on personal experience at the paper where I worked, it began to happen in the mid-1970s. It was a major paper with a conservative, somewhat fuddy-duddyish past, and in an attempt to modernize itself and attract a younger audience, it did some very good things (build a world-class features department stocked with talented youngish writers) and then, a bit later on, other things that were really stupid (in effect, tell our readership that we were no longer going to take an authoritative stance on just about anything but rather would detect what the readers already cared about and  then feed that back to them). The latter move might sound like populism, and it might work if one were an actual political candidate. But for an organ of information, it was and is a recipe for irrelevance. Tell me what you think I already know or want to hear, and why the heck do I need you?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Based on personal experience at the paper where I worked, it began to happen in the mid-1970s. It was a major paper with a conservative, somewhat fuddy-duddyish past, and in an attempt to modernize itself and attract a younger audience, it did some very good things (build a world-class features department stocked with talented youngish writers) and then, a bit later on, other things that were really stupid (in effect, tell our readership that we were no longer going to take an authoritative stance on just about anything but rather would detect what the readers already cared about and  then feed that back to them). The latter move might sound like populism, and it might work if one were an actual political candidate. But for an organ of information, it was and is a recipe for irrelevance. Tell me what you think I already know or want to hear, and why the heck do I need you?</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/comment-page-1/#comment-65121</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/#comment-65121</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The best of the blogs, certainly including this one, may be our best hope, though not (fingers crossed) our only one. As for the MSM, I still have talented, honest, conscientous friends there, and if they were allowed to follow their own noses, the results would deservedly attract readers, or so I believe. While it’s not all it takes to make a paper a success, the likelihood that one will encounter there on a daily basis two or three or more things that are trustworthy, enlightening, perhaps entertaining or amusing, and, as they say, news to you, is the simple essential ground base. That plus the likelihood that the rest of the paper won’t lie to your face or say things that are flat-out stupid or make you crazy. Getting back to the “follow their own noses” principle, the amount and kind of fearful middle-management b.s. that good journalists increasingly have to put up with is almost beyond belief. About  that first point, though — again it’s so simple in principle though far from simple in practice: One believes that Marcy doesn’t talk unless she knows her stuff, and/or she will tell us if she’s speculating. She doesn’t say anything here, I think, that she would say differently to her best friend. That may not be everything, but without it, you’ve got nothing.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best of the blogs, certainly including this one, may be our best hope, though not (fingers crossed) our only one. As for the MSM, I still have talented, honest, conscientous friends there, and if they were allowed to follow their own noses, the results would deservedly attract readers, or so I believe. While it’s not all it takes to make a paper a success, the likelihood that one will encounter there on a daily basis two or three or more things that are trustworthy, enlightening, perhaps entertaining or amusing, and, as they say, news to you, is the simple essential ground base. That plus the likelihood that the rest of the paper won’t lie to your face or say things that are flat-out stupid or make you crazy. Getting back to the “follow their own noses” principle, the amount and kind of fearful middle-management b.s. that good journalists increasingly have to put up with is almost beyond belief. About  that first point, though — again it’s so simple in principle though far from simple in practice: One believes that Marcy doesn’t talk unless she knows her stuff, and/or she will tell us if she’s speculating. She doesn’t say anything here, I think, that she would say differently to her best friend. That may not be everything, but without it, you’ve got nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: readerOfTeaLeaves</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/comment-page-1/#comment-65117</link>
		<dc:creator>readerOfTeaLeaves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:19:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/19/the-nyt-does-penance/#comment-65117</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;… the media is &lt;em&gt;not dependent&lt;/em&gt; on government officials, or the lowest-common-denominator aspects of popular culture, or anything else like that &lt;em&gt;because it has been seduced by those forces but because the media previously had come to see itself as a failing, gutted enterprise.&lt;/em&gt; [italics rOTL&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Larry, I’d started to suspect the same thing — when did the press begin to view itself as so powerless?  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But we’re finally glimpsing the cumulative social (and personal) costs of ‘bad information’ in may areas:&lt;br /&gt;
– steroids in baseball&lt;br /&gt;
– stock analysts putting “Buy!” signals on Enron stock without understanding, or inquiring, how that company actually made money&lt;br /&gt;
– write-downs on billions of Big Shitpile mortgages; the ‘information value’ of the  mortgages is so low that  no one seems able to accurately price them&lt;br /&gt;
– dangerous products being sold&lt;br /&gt;
– media outlets accepting questionable ‘experts’ as interview subjects, including corporate-funded pseudo-scientists who shill that global warming is not attributable to oil or fuel consumption (!)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The cumulative costs are not sustainable.  Neverthless, I’d argue that  George Soros is correct in pointing out that after 1980, America became a ‘feel good society’ and wanted to be told Sweet Lies.  That’s basically a form of letting the nuts run the insane asylum, or the criminals run the prison.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;People of integrity refuse to lie — witness Al Gore and many climate scientists.&lt;br /&gt;
People with no integrity are willing to shill for just about anything.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The media was complicit in telling Sweet financial, environmental, and political Lies; whether it can survive the damage remains to be seen.  The media lost more than their virginity — they lost their fundamental purpose.  Here’s hoping they can reclaim it.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>… the media is <em>not dependent</em> on government officials, or the lowest-common-denominator aspects of popular culture, or anything else like that <em>because it has been seduced by those forces but because the media previously had come to see itself as a failing, gutted enterprise.</em> [italics rOTL</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Larry, I’d started to suspect the same thing — when did the press begin to view itself as so powerless?  </p>
<p>But we’re finally glimpsing the cumulative social (and personal) costs of ‘bad information’ in may areas:<br />
– steroids in baseball<br />
– stock analysts putting “Buy!” signals on Enron stock without understanding, or inquiring, how that company actually made money<br />
– write-downs on billions of Big Shitpile mortgages; the ‘information value’ of the  mortgages is so low that  no one seems able to accurately price them<br />
– dangerous products being sold<br />
– media outlets accepting questionable ‘experts’ as interview subjects, including corporate-funded pseudo-scientists who shill that global warming is not attributable to oil or fuel consumption (!)</p>
<p>The cumulative costs are not sustainable.  Neverthless, I’d argue that  George Soros is correct in pointing out that after 1980, America became a ‘feel good society’ and wanted to be told Sweet Lies.  That’s basically a form of letting the nuts run the insane asylum, or the criminals run the prison.  </p>
<p>People of integrity refuse to lie — witness Al Gore and many climate scientists.<br />
People with no integrity are willing to shill for just about anything.</p>
<p>The media was complicit in telling Sweet financial, environmental, and political Lies; whether it can survive the damage remains to be seen.  The media lost more than their virginity — they lost their fundamental purpose.  Here’s hoping they can reclaim it.</p>
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