Via Marty Lederman, John Yoo's Dean, Chris Edley, writes a provocative (though unsurprising) letter regarding John Yoo and academic freedom (h/t scribe). I've interspersed some comments and questions between the excerpts below.
Professor Yoo began teaching at Berkeley Law in 1993, received tenure in 1999, and then took a leave of absence to work in the Bush Administration. He returned in 2004, and remains a very successful teacher and prolific (though often controversial) scholar. Because this is a public university, he enjoys not only security of employment and academic freedom, but also First Amendment and Due Process rights.
As I've shared with a number of people in comments before, I had a conversation with the Provost of a prestigious private university recently; we spoke about his efforts to ensure the law faculty included good, but conservative, thinkers. I raised Yoo and it was clear that Yoo has become every Dean's worst hiring nightmare--the young, controversial, but apparently brilliant academic who goes on to do horrible things in government after he has gotten tenure. This whole question would be different, after all, had Yoo not had tenure before he had written these memos.
That said, I'm disappointed that Edley didn't say more about my biggest worry: Yoo's teaching. It's one thing to keep a controversial scholar on faculty because of academic freedom. It's one thing for that scholar to (as Edley describes elsewhere in his memo) air unpopular views. It's another thing to have someone who--more than anyone save David Addington on Bush's legal staff--assaulted the Constitution, doing real damage in the short and potentially long term.
It's one thing to guard Yoo's right to write controversial academic articles. It's yet another to have him teach future lawyers Constitutional Law.
So I'm curious how Edley measures Yoo's teaching when he compliments it here? Is Yoo well-liked by students? Challenging? Rigorous? But just as importantly, is he teaching future lawyers to do as he has done, deliver the goods for the client even if doing so fundamentally conflicts with the Constitution? Is Yoo training the next generation of lawyers who will approach the law and the Constitution itself with a utilitarian attitude? Do students like Yoo because he teaches them to be the best sophists they can be? I don't know the answer, but I'd sure like to.
Does what Professor Yoo wrote while not at the University somehow place him beyond the pale of academic freedom today? Had this been merely some professor vigorously expounding controversial and even extreme views, we would be in a familiar drama with the usual stakes. Had that professor been on leave marching with Nazis in Skokie or advising communists during the McCarthy era, reasonable people would probably find that an easier case still. Here, additional things are obviously in play. Gravely so.
My sense is that the vast majority of legal academics with a view of the matter disagree with substantial portions of Professor Yoo’s analyses, including a great many of his colleagues at Berkeley. If, however, this strong consensus were enough to fire or sanction someone, then academic freedom would be meaningless.
There are important questions about the content of the Yoo memoranda, about tortured definitions of "torture," about how he and his colleagues conceived their role as lawyers, and about whether and when the Commander in Chief is subject to domestic statutes and international law. We press our students to grapple with these matters, and in the legal literature Professor Yoo and his critics do battle. One can oppose and even condemn an idea, but I do not believe that in a university we can fearfully refuse to look at it. That would not be the best way to educate, nor a promising way to seek deeper understanding in a world of continual, strange revolutions.
There is more, however. Having worked in the White House under two presidents, I am exceptionally sensitive to the complex, ineffable boundary between policymaking and law-declaring. I know that Professor Yoo continues to believe his legal reasoning was sound, but I do not know whether he believes that the Department of Defense and CIA made political or moral mistakes in the way they exercised the discretion his memoranda purported to find available to them within the law. As critical as I am of his analyses, no argument about what he did or didn't facilitate, or about his special obligations as an attorney, makes his conduct morally equivalent to that of his nominal clients, Secretary Rumsfeld, et al., or comparable to the conduct of interrogators distant in time, rank and place. Yes, it does matter that Yoo was an adviser, but President Bush and his national security appointees were the deciders. [my emphasis]
This last bit--which I disagree with--strikes me as the reverse Nuremberg defense. In the same way those who facilitated torture still cling to the inadequate claim that they were just following bad orders, Edley here gives Yoo the excuse that he was just providing advice, that his advice is distanced from the outcome of that advice because someone else ultimately exercises the key moral decision. Furthermore, I think this argument allows Edley to ignore what appears to have gone on here--Yoo appears not to have conducted real analysis, but rather he appears to have delivered shoddy opinions that gave Bush and Rummy and Tenet and Cheney the green light to do what they had decided to do before they sought his advice. Yoo, in a sense, willingly took on the role of decider here, because by providing such utilitarian opinions, he freed Bush and Rummy and Tenet and Cheney of the requirement that they risk their own moral authority to implement plans they claim were correct. Yoo leant them his own moral authority, and in doing so allowed them to escape the moral and legal consequences of their own decisions.
So, yeah, Bush and Rummy and Tenet and Cheney are in the wrong here. But so is Yoo, because he has tried and has thus far succeeded in placing them in a position where all of them can commit moral wrongs without owning those actions.
Ultimately, I think Edley makes the wrong comparison with Yoo's actions. It's not a question of whether Yoo's opinions are worse than a historian denying the holocaust or a professor who, in his own time, marches with Nazis. Rather, the correct comparison seems to be with a doctor--who happens to teach at a university--willfully hurting his patients. Or an engineer--who happens to teach at a university--who willfully builds bridges he knows will collapse.
That comparison may not--probably does not--change the high standards for academic freedom. I tend to believe that before Berkeley could attempt to fire Yoo, he would have to be disbarred, OPR would have had to find he acted improperly when he wrote his opinions on torture and warrantless wiretapping (and, unfortunately, that's unlikley to happen). But that doesn't prevent Berkeley from seriously considering whether it is wise to have a man who has violated the ethics of his craft--indeed, challenged the Constitution on which that craft rests--teaching his methods to students who will one day be expected to fulfill the ethics that Yoo has so badly failed to fulfill.
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I had the great privilege to have Archibald Cox as a professor in law school. We took him to lunch one time and he told us proud stories of his time as Watergate Prosecutor bringing Nixon to justice.
I wonder how lunch is with Prof. Yoo.
Three Peas in a Pod:
Yoo’s got Tenure for Life, to protect him from his Depraved Indifference to Human Life.
Bybee’s got a Judgeship for Life, to protect him from his Depraved Indifference to Human Life.
I’ll bet they feel smugly comfortable and untouchable, too…
Kind of like Bush feeling smugly protected by his Inherent Powers as the UE - that Yoo and Bybee gave him - from his Depraved Indifference to Human Life.
Article II Inherent Powers, Tenure, Judgeships - Who Needs Morality?
I was hoping you’d take this up. I’m disappointed but not surprised by Edley’s conclusions, but I had to grin at his snarkilicious tone ;>
This graf:
immediately followed by this: “Assuming one believes as I do that Professor Yoo offered bad ideas and even worse advice during his government service” gave me some hope, but I actually think Edley’s right in deciding that — based on what we know right now — Yoo’s tenure is safe. ISTM that disbarment should be a first step.
There is a great difference between someone being asked, “Is it legal, can you look into it?” or “I want to do something that is illegal, find a way around it so that I can get away with it.”
Btw, did you see this post riffing on your comment from yesterday?
Bybee could be impeached.
There is a process, too, by which lifetime tenure can be revoked, but we’re nowhere near there yet, in terms of process.
Wesley Snipes took bad tax advice and claimed he believed it to be legal and sound. A court of law found him not guilty of tax evasion.
Numerous heads of corporations received signed letters from prestigious law firms stating that tax shelters designed by prestigious accounting firms were more than likely to be found by the IRS as acceptable.
These kinds of things are established and accepted in this country.
Why should the presidents advisors not be given the same benefit.
If you can find someone with a professional license and they tell you it’s ok. All you have to do is sound sincere when you claim you believed they were giving you an honest professional opinion.
As egregious as the Yoo memos are I’m just saying this kind of attitude has been in place for a long time.
The problem with your comparison to a doctor would be that the college kids nowdays are following the money. They’re going to want what Yoo is teaching rather than Dr. Albert Schweitzer.
Edley ought to be taken to the freaking woodshed for using the word “decider”. I can respect the protection of academic freedom, First Amendment protection and professorial tenure from him. He should have stopped there, the rest is a bunch of pure rationalistic horseshit. Fuck Yoo, and Edley too.
Not very shocking. Self-serving justification for a bad hiring decision. And Bmaz, that ‘decider’ reference - wtf? Some sort of smoke signal?
An icing of poo on top of a sh*t pie.
And what is the “law-declaring” of “…the ineffable boundary between policymaking and law-declaring…”?
Yes, and I think that that is where Edley is being at least disingenuous.
For me, the bottom line is international law, much of the best of which was written by Americans. Yoo has trivialized and ridiculed some of that law. Should he still be teaching? I think that that is more than a fair question, and Dean Edley himself is trivializing to compare it with defences of fringe neo-Nazi marches. There isn’t a logical parallel. Repulsive is one thing, but destroying the law itself is quite another.
Of course I saw it! Seeing my username in an emptywheel post is like getting a 4 from Meteor Blades ;>
Edley needs to elaborate on this:
How does he know that? The pleading tone in Yoo’s voice? It seems that’s what’s not known. Plenty of evidence (ommission of most relevant Supreme Court case) indicates bad faith, but he’s unwilling to entertain this possibility. No one anywhere seems willing to entertain the possibility of bad faith or ill motive.
I think your analogy of a physician doing bad medicine is appropriate.
A couple of years back, a Neurosurgery Resident at University of California, San Francisco, was accused of using a temporary anesthetic to commit rape of hospitalized patients.
His department stood behind him, insisting he was of high moral standing.
As the prosecution was prepared, he suicided, but never lost the public support of his department chairman.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/.....C6L2P1.DTL
Then of course you have the tenured engineering professor at Northwestern, Arthur Butz, who writes holocaust denial books.
http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/butz.asp
His tenure is safe, although he does not teach his theories in his engineering classes.
Academic Bonds and particularly Tenure are tough to break.
At Northwestern, every time there is a new Butz book or paper that calls attention to his wacko theories, the faculty publish a widely-signed letter noting disagreement.
Maybe it is time for Boalt Professors to write a letter announcing they do not support torture, or bending the limits of legal craft to write policies allowing torture.
30 years ago there would be some pressure from undergrads to consider the immorality. Ironic that Berkeley will be a nice sanctuary for a war criminal.
One can reasonably assume the Dean has had a chat or two about this matter with the Professor. One can reasonably assume that the Professor has a psychological need to continue to believe that he has been right all along, or failing that, numerous practical needs to continue to say that he continues to beleve that he has been right all along.
Belief — and first-person statements about it — can get pretty damn peculiar.
EW wrote:
I believe this aspect (see above) is an accurate assessment. I think it may be more possible to put pressure on the CA and PA Bar Associations than some are willing to credit. I know of one instance where an individual has petitioned the PA Bar to investigate. The process for appealing to the CA Bar appears to be more onerous, and would likely be undertaken by attorneys in CA. Of course, this assumes that Yoo is licensed in both of those states. I know there’s been some uncertainty as to whether and where Yoo is licensed to practice.
I found this comment from a thread of Brad DeLong’s interesting. So at least one CA law firm has looked at it. And, the National Lawyers Guild has called for Yoo to be disbarred.
Edley’s letter is precisely what I would expect from a university. However, if Yoo could be disbarred, I expect UC would be in a position to rescind Yoo’s tenure without going anywhere near the free speech issues that would send the faculties of the entire system into hysterics.
“decider” was one of the parts I read as snark. I used to read transcripts/watch hearings of the USCCR whenever possible, just to listen to Mary Frances Berry and Chris Edley.
Besides, if I mentally substitute a progressive with tenure at, say, Regent U (imagination straining mightily), I think Edley’s right, so far. His closing sentence:
That standard has not been met.
has an invisible “yet” at the end, I think.
I read the whole statement as “I, Chris Edley, think Yoo’s fullashit, but the Dean of UC-Berkeley School of Law will defend his right to be fullashit until — “Commission of a criminal act which has led to conviction in a court of law and which clearly demonstrates unfitness to continue as a member of the faculty” — I have just cause to throw his ass out.
Based on the graph you quoted he could face lossof tenure for abject imcompetence.
To paraphrase: “tenure is not a suicide pact”
The Dean is largely right. This is, in part, why the other day in the comments I urged people to wait when going about going after Yoo - he is not yet ripe fruit. He’ll get there, because the snowball is rolling downhill. But, anyone going after him or anyone else needs to remember that it needs to be done with respect for, and adherence to, the Rule of Law and all the institutions he, Addington, the Basement Torture Cabal, and the Queen Bee at the center of all this - Bushie - set out to destroy. Because, if anyone tries to rectify the damage they caused by using the same moral, ethical and legal shortcuts Yoo and his fellow gangsters did, they not only descend to the level of the manure pile they have turned the Oval Office into, but they also ratify the success of the institution-destroying Yoo and they set out to perform.
And, no, I don’t necessarily think writing a craptastic memo authorizing torture is necessarily, per se, unethical. The Rules of Ethics are not that defintive, in the bright-line sense. Remember, I’ve talked time and again about “Objective” misconduct and “subjective” misconduct. “Objective” misconduct comes up in the context of actual criminal convictions, repeated judgments of liability for malpractice, stealing money from clients (the account books will show the theft), lying under oath, falsifying court records, and so on. “Subjective” misconduct is the more subtle - bad judgments or decisions, wrongheadedness, conflicted representations.
Thus far, Yoo’s misconduct, while it was egregious malpractice, remains “subjective” - he performed bad, grievously defective legal analysis. That his analysis was leavened by his obvious toadying to the Administration (spelt “Addington”) and its desire for a free playing field so it could torture like a bored 11 year-old going after a frog exacerbates the errors, but it does not convert his misconduct from “subjective” to “objective”.
I can understand how a young, so-far-successful lawyer and law professor, his self-appraisal jazzed by the status he’d achieved thus far, could go down the road Yoo did. He saw his prior boss, Jay Bybee, sign the first memo(s) Yoo had written for him, the ones which were a mere dip of the toe into the cesspit of torture. And, in short order, he saw Bybee appointed to the Ninth Circuit. That sort of correlation was sure to get the message across to Yoo: give Administration what it wants, get appointed to judicial seat at a very, very young age and maybe, just maybe, get appointed to the Supreme Court one day. Unfortunately for not only himself, but also the country and all those who’d fall into the clutches of its government, for all his education Yoo had never developed any mature, detatched discernment. Had he developed it, he might have been able to recognize he was being played, with his eager, willing acquiescence and cooperation, into giving Addington and Cheney the dictatorship they wanted. They worked him no differently than one works a trainee hunting dog - into a frenzy of excitement for the quarry, with the promise of reward at the end. And the dog will do all sorts of crazy things for that reward.
I understand it. That does not mean I condone it in the least.
But, I would suggest we look back to the play/movie “A Man For All Seasons”:
So, let’s all remember to not destroy all the laws and institutions, in order to “get” Yoo, or any of the other members of the Bush Crime Family. They can be “gotten” without completing their work of destruction for them.
It’s not just disingenuous, it’s manipulative in the usual way. Part of his argument is seems that, well, none of this is as bad as the Nazis; it’s all more “ineffable”.
And here is the really dishonest statement:
It might not be a question merely of the content of the opinions, but the intent of writing them. The opinions themselves might not merely be “controversial”, or even shoddy to the point of malpractice (this wasn’t malpractice — it was what the client ordered), but wilfully dishonest. Edley’s argument is polyannish bullshit.
Speaking of Nazis, Dr. Wilhelm Stuckart, an architect of the Nuremberg Laws and convicted war criminal, is dramatized nicely by Colin Firth in “Conspiracy“, a dramatization of the Wansee Conference.
Why did Edley, as Dean of Boalt Hall, “speaking only for myself” use the schools web page for an editorial, instead of stating His or University policy as Dean?
Also EW how can Yoo be disbarred when he doesn’t practice law, he teaches law. He isn’t licensed by any Bar Association I could find, although he has standing in the 9th circuit.
I still doubt they could rescind the tenure. You don’t have to be a member of the bar to teach law (you do to write OLC opinions, though).
Though of course the likelihood of a progressive getting a job–much less tenure–at Regent are approximately nill.
I and many of my friends have seen the requirements for “statements of faith” at such schools. I’m quite certain that, back in my own academic days, I would not have been hireable at a conservative Catholic University, in spite of what (on paper) look like pretty good Catholic ties.
So the Regents don’t have the same kind of problem, really. Heck, I suspect they’re not all that bummed that one of their former students basically admitted to breaking the law in the name of party loyalty and heterosexuality checks.
I certainly hope the Lawyers, and the Judges, and the Professors get Very Vocal about:
What does their Lifetime security from Critics mean to US?
So far, we’re left to guess - by Yoo’s and Bybee’s actions - that Tenure and Lifetime Judgeships are meant to be ‘rewards of safety enclaves’ for Megalomaniacal Sociopaths who successfully do the blindly loyal, unquestioned, bidding of the Powerfully Depraved, whom they seek to please by Offering Up the Legal Cover for Cruel and Inhumane Treatment.
If the Professors and Judges don’t claim the High Ground - presumably Tenure and a Lifetime Appointment have some benefit to US - then Yoo and Bybee will set the Bar of Professional Honor - really fucking low - for all of them.
Before you know it, Torture-enabling, ex-Administration Members will be getting no-bid contracts worth millions…
The problem with these examples:
is that they are subjective and, really, not actionable. Remember, the same ACLU that is working day and night to get the torture papers out of the government and into the open, also defended the American Nazi Party when they wanted to march/demonstrate in Skokie, Illinois. Not because they liked Nazis, but because the ACLU, rightly, viewed the First Amendment as a neutral principle which had to be defended for all, regardless of the content of their speech.
Look at it from another perspective - if a blacklisted-by-McCarthy professor (of law, perhaps) was having his tenure attacked because he had stood up in the face of a cascade of anti-communist laws to defend someone, would you go along with the crowd, or recognize his right to speak for and defend the client of his choice?
On the other hand, the Dean has it right when he says:
These are both examples of objective misconduct.
“So, let’s all remember to not destroy all the laws and institutions, in order to “get” Yoo, or any of the other”
Yup.
Perchance this is why Mukasey is unwiling to relase the unclassified , yet unpublic memo that Yoo referred to in the MArch 2003 memeo? We haven’t seen it yet, but from the way he describes it, he opined that the 4th ammendment doesn’t apply in wartime (contrary to tons of caselaw)
My thought EW is UC does not want the lead in this business with Yoo. You are correct, he does not need to be a member of the Bar to teach. But, in many of these professional positions, it’s implicit that he is eligible for membership, even if he doesn’t currently have it. Were Yoo disbarred it lowers the threshold UC would have to meet to review Yoo’s tenure.
scribe, the Dean didn’t write that. EW did.
Going back to what you highlighted, EW:
Edley is flat wrong for several reasons.
First, you can not hire him to teach as a professor of law and then say you don’t care about how he lived up to his “special obligations as an attorney.” If they want to hire him to teach “a non JD credit course, it’s a bit different, but he’s being hired to make and shape lawyers - people who will by definition be required to live up to special obligations as attorneys.
Second, he’s wrong about his distinction in Yoo’s role and that of the others. The reality is that Bush, Cheney et al were not the deciders for this. The reality is that when Bush, Cheney et al made the edict “go ye forth and torture” their decision meant nothing. Rather, the torturers waited for a more ultimate decision. They waited for the DOJ to tell them that what they were going to do was legal.
Do I think Bush bears responsiblity - the buck should stop with him? Sure. But the reality is that the decision on whether or not the torture would take place did not rest with him. Bush’s torturers waited for the LAWYERS to decide that they could torture.
As the story is coming out, I think on the CIA torture front (if not perhaps as much on the military torture front) what we do have is a situation where despite efforts to hang Yoo out as a run amok OLC secret operative, a clearer picture of Ashcroft’s and Thompson’s (and later AGs and DAGs) knowledge of, and participation in approval of, torture and rendition is emerging.
Still, the Deciders on torture were not the politicians, they were the lawyers. And obviously, the ultimate deciders on something like that are always the people who decide to participate in depraved acts. But their decision did not rest on a Presidential order or directive. Those were not “good enough” for them. They wanted the Dept f/k/a Justice and specifically the lawyers in the Dept to decide if the conduct should occur. And the lawyers made that decision. They own it.
Could be, esp. since (IIRC) his response to Congressional demands for it yesterday was that it was covered by attorney-client privilege.
Yes, the Nazi example really jumped out at me as inapt, tone-deaf. As Dean at Boalt, of all places, he should have had some sensitivity to what a cliche First Amendment example that is. Come to think of it, it weakens the sincerity of his First Amendment argument for retaining Yoo.
Wait, that’s not the Dean, that’s me. While I hear you that we have not proven that Yoo has committed the same kind of objective misconduct, those are at least the terms that we ought to discuss this, IMO.
The Dean wrote:
EW’s paragraph, which you correctly note I quoted above, does a very nice job of summarizing the Dean’s prolixity.
Prosecute Yoo for war crimes. He can enjoy his tenure in jail.
He was a bit sketchy abotu that. He talked about the interests of other agencies (which in this context would be DOD), and he talked about the importance of the deliberative process.
Which is a different claim to privilege than attorney client, isn’t it?
Also, he did agree that Congress had some claim to this document.
On the other side of the coin - a few years back at the University of Colorado, Professor Ward Churchill not only lost his tenure but was fired because his views differed than the Bush administration on 9/11.
In many states a disbarred lawer cannot teach law to law students or CLE.
I don’t know about Cal.
see mine at 34.
You are quite correct in noting the objective violations of Rules of Ethics are the ones we should be concerned with. There are two kinds of attorney-ethics rules:
(1) the rules which begin “thou shalt not”, and
(2) the rules which begin “thou should not”.
There’s a world of difference in that one word.
And, remember, the Ethics Police who administer the Ethics Rules, are really only interested in chasing down objective violations. They’re almost uniformly bright, good lawyers, but it’s really hard to make a disbarment case against a lawyer when all you’re alleging is a “subjective” violation. Plus, it takes a lot more time and effort than does a case where the violation is “objective”.
Yoo doesn’t seem to be a member of the CA Bar Association - they have a nice search engine on their site, listing members as active or inactive.
Yes. Deliberative-process privilege is quite different from attorney-client.
The problem is, remember, the Republicans made bad (for themselves, now) precedent on the attorney-client privilege issue when they got all full of bile and went after Clinton. Remember? How the government attorney advising a government official does not result in a clear attorney-client privilege, unlike in the private context?
Yeah. That.
The deliberative-process privilege is a relatively new confection, and is not well-developed. Not nearly as well as attorney-client. So, if it can be kept out of the courts (deliberative process would surely land there), that would be a good idea. Otherwise, it just gets kicked down the road.
Yup. And the Dean would of course be very cooperative with investigators wrt access to Yoo’s office, computers, ……. (does the UC system have the typical rights-waiving employment policies about computer use, etc?)
WHich is horseshit. These things used the be PUBLISHED.
I have seen you argue this for a while now. First off, I am not convinced that the subjective-objective line is as bright as you make it out to be. Ethics complaints take a good long while to work their way through if they are substantive enough to pass the prima facie test. Drafted appropriately, with specific reference to Pa. canons, a sufficient complaint could be filed. Also, multiple complaints can be consolidated. I am not going to do it, but I believe you are giving short shrift to say it can’t be done.
Edley does a good job of distinguishing between the various objections that people have no doubt raised with him about Yoo. I do think he missed a couple things, though.
Yoo may not be as culpable as Bush and Rumsfeld, but surely he bears *some* responsibility for the advice he provided to them. This is what conspiracy law is all about, right? “No, I didn’t rob the bank — I just gave the guys who did some guns, told them to be careful where they point them, and drove them to the corner on which the bank sits.”
Academic freedom, as Edley says, must be maintained. On the other hand, so must academic quality and rigor. At some point, Edley as Dean must answer the question: “Is Yoo’s understanding of the Constitution, the separation of powers, and the role of the judiciary so far outside the mainstream that it places the education of our students at risk?” Is a criminal conviction the only way in which Edley could answer “Yes” to that question?
Of the two questions Edley asks at the end, the first is the one that caught my eye. In looseheadprop’s series of posts at FDL dissecting elements of Yoo’s memo, she’s raised questions of academic misconduct. Yoo claims that his citations say one thing while in actuality they say/mean the opposite, and he fails to grapple with one of the most fundamental war powers cases anywhere in the memo (Youngstown). The latter is an error so basic that one questions either his grasp of the subject (not likely, given his course reading lists) or his motives as a lawyer (whether he consciously twisted the law to please his clients).
Both of these are academic misconduct issues — not policy issues — and neither is defensible under the rubric of “academic freedom.” About the only thing worse, from an academic point of view, would be outright plagarism. Absent a criminal conviction, this is where Yoo is most vulnerable.
Keep after him, LHP!
I agree with characterizing Edley’s comment as a “reverse Nuremburg defense”. I had a similar thought when reading that passage and I think this phrase expresses it really well. I also think this line of thought explains why Yoo should be included among the defendants when the ICC brings charges. Of course, conviction at the ICC should be sufficient grounds for UC to finally fire Yoo.
However, I recall an instance from about 30 years ago where a tenured professor at a prestigious private university was fired for violation of a “moral turpitude” aspect of the employment contract. Does anyone know if Boalt Hall uses employment contracts and if the standard form includes a “moral turpitude” clause? It would seem to me that intentionally crafting a legal opinion that is intended to enable crimes against humanity would fit the definition of moral turpitude:
You’re right, EW. The cherubic, interviewer-friendly John Yoo is a law school dean’s worst nightmare. Dean Edley is damned if he defends the principles under which Mr. Yoo should retain his job (without remarking about those that argue the other way, as Yoo forgot about Youngstown and Altstoetter). He’s damned if he tries to fire him, setting a precedent that could be abused by others, and taking on the trustees by threatening the university’s capital campaigns. “Y’all were telling us all about that supercolliderthingumbit YOO wanted us to fund, pardner?”
Thing is, that’s the identical quandary Yoo faced. I envision it something like this. A figuratively too close for comfort David Addington whispers into Yoo’s ear: “You’re a brilliant, arrogant, ambitious, non-white, young immigrant. You have a choice, John, Sign here and you’re a made man. Don’t sign here, drag your tail back to Berkeley with the first nasty performance appraisal you’ve ever had and the lasting enmity of Dick Cheney. Your call. What’s it gonna be, John?”
What’s it gonna be, Dean Edley? I think the writing’s on the wall in one of the straw men he poses as metaphors for his decision making:
Those are ironic and inaccurate analogies, drawn from recent cases in which it was held that the First Amendment protected controversial speech, in part, because that speech did not advocate the doing of imminent bodily harm. It’s ironic because Yoo’s troubles stem from his willingness to discard related Constitutional guarantees because a self-declared warrior president claimed they fettered his right to protect Americans in any way he saw fit, in his sole discrettion. Doubly ironic because one wonders whether Mr. Yoo would have upheld those rights to free speech when working for a president addicted to “Free Speech” zones.
Better analogies Dean Edley could have chosen would include Mr. Yoo taking leave from Berkeley to become legal adviser for a repressive Latin American dictator. Or to help draft the modern equivalents of the Nacht und Nebel laws for Mr. Putin - or Mr. Bush and his Italian renditions. It is that positive behavior, not Mr. Yoo’s expression of controversial political views, that call into question his right to remain a tenured professor of law and member of the bar.
In addition to executive priveledge there are other concepts of privledge including “deliberative Porcess”
It protects “drafts” and internal memos that an agency circulates before coming to a fianl decision. These non final internalt discussion memos are xcempt from FOIA under the concept of deliberative process, Only the agenicy’s fianl decision woul d have to be released.
Kinda like the draft memos the SCOTUS floats around trying to reach a cdecisiosn. These competing ememos are not made public and have no force–it is only the final decisions that count.
NONE OF WHCHI would exchempt the 2001 Yoo memo from being released. It was a final decision at the time and its not even classified.
27 -
In the exchange between Mukasey and Feinstein up at TPM, Mukasey seems to be indicated that a) the “opinion” as a whole has not been withdrawn; b) the rationale of the Fourth not being in effect domestically with respect to the military is wrong; but c) that rationale was only an alternative to ANOTHER rationale to support the searches “at issue” in the memo.
emph added
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpoi.....t_appl.php
PS - I don’t know so you crim guys tell me - how “commonplace” is it for the USA’s office to have FBI agents call up jurors after a trial? Also from TPM. I’ve known of lawyers to do that for various reasons and depending on the state, but I have to say even as a lawyer I’d be taken aback after trial to get an FBI agent calling me to have a little talk with me about why I voted the way I did.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpoi.....ht_jur.php
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Back to Yoo - I do think it is true that no one has “all the goods” yet to go after Yoo (in line with much of what scribe has said - there’s a lot more to be done first), but I still think Edley’s wrong in what he laid out on a failure to meet professional ethical standards for “special obligations” should have no input and that the lawyers were not the “deciders.”
The problem is that a great deal of what is known now was known or suspected when they made their decision. The bigger failing is what they did then as opposed to now. For now, having made the ineffably bad decision years back to put a torture supporter - kind of the ultimate in hate speech - on staff, they now need a lot to get him off.
While it’s not a popular view, I don’t think that what Yoo did was terribly different than what Goldsmith and Comey and others did and failed to do. Certainly - he never signed off directly on the paperwork to send a specific person to Syria for the ultimate outcome, like Larry Thompson did for Maher Arar.
As we speak, I feel quite confident there is someone who has collected every article Yoo has ever written and is combing through them for anything that could be be made to look like plagiarism. Even so little as a missed footnote somewhere would make Boalt’s life much easier.
So, are suggesting that his “cut and pste” of “boilerplate” is an admission against interest that he committed plagerism? *g*
Well, he ain’t real good on cites you know….
Heck, we know he didn’t cite his use of “zenith” even in the Torture Memo.
But I don’t think that gets us to a perjury charge, huh?
36/48 - I only saw some written excerpts and didn’t watch Mukasey’s whole hearing, but my understanding is that they were arguing not so much atty-client or deliberative (umm, the memo from OLC should be a statement of law, not a policy deliberation and if it is just a deliberative document with no firm legal conclusions no one could rely upon it) privilege - - my take was that he was saying the opinion was subject to another agency’s claim that parts of it involved “classified” information.
Which, again, is pretty much bull imo but it takes it down a different lane.
“having made the ineffably bad decision years back to put a torture supporter - kind of the ultimate in hate speech - on staff”
Yoo received tenure in 1999, before he took a leave to work for the Bush DfkaJ. AFAIK, he didn’t write any opinions justifying torture pre-1999. (Edley could paraphrase Condi — “No-one could have anticipated…” ;>)
I am not saying “it can’t be done”.
Rather, I am saying: “we should take our time on this and get it right.”
I say that for at least four good reasons:
1. It’s a general rule that, unless some really over-arching new facts come out, if an ethics complaint is filed against an attorney about event or transaction “X” and that complaint is docketed by the appropriate ethics authority, investigated by them and dismissed, it’s over. Forever. It’s kind of a “double jeopardy” rule. As of now, there are not enough facts out there to support an ethics case, and any case brought would likely fail, putting the kibosh on going after him later when more facts come out.
2. The “subjective”/”objective” misconduct distinction is quite important to the Ethics Police. They have limited time, manpower and budgets. The local ethics boards (where the case would start) are usually all-volunteer. Usually no one - not even the prosecuting attorneys - gets any money for their time. The Ethics authorities’ duty is not only to prep the cases for prosecution, but also to audit attorneys’ accounts, check their record-keeping, and so on. They will pursue cases regardless, but they prefer “objective” cases. Remember - Scooter’s disbarment took about 10 pages on the web. That, because he was being disbarred over a criminal conviction.
3. You can be sure Yoo will have the best defense wingnut welfare and their moneybags funders can buy. Why go with an inadequate case, now?
4. Generally, there are no statutes of limitation on attorney ethics violations.
His having “misread” what comprises the zenith of presidential power may lead to the nadir of Mr. Yoo’s career. But Mr. Yoo, however much he wanted to it, did not have flag rank and was not on the “general staff”. He deserves the criticism, but he’s a placeholder for his superiors, including Ashcroft, Gonzales and Addington.
55 - so he took leave to go work for the admin and then just returned? Then they did not have nearly the same bad judgment (although his Clinton era articles are “something” they are just political, not criminal) but the have the same problem with getting rid of him if they even want to get rid of him - - - they need a lot more that is truly evidentiary and not anonymous sourcing.
I do think they should subject some of his work that has been declassified to peer review, though.
What, why, and how did they choose Yoo to write the opinions? Based on what?
He had written law review articles on the supremacy of the unitary executive prior to 1999, and the reasoning in those was not too dissimilar from the torture memos. The torture memos were just a condensation of the ideas from the cloud castles of his law review articles onto the factual predicate of a President who wanted to torture brown people, to provide the intellectual(ly dishonest) rationale for doing what the President wanted.
Fuck Yoo, he shouted “drown them in a crowded detention cell.”
His words are not protected since he incited a “clear and present danger”
and brought about evil (torture)…
There sure was a fucking clamor to debar Bill Clinton. I know I don’t know nuthin, but I think Yoo’s conduct is, um, worse. And before anybody whips out perjury or material misrepresentations, give me a break. He didn’t do squat under oath except for take mental and legal advantage of some piss poor depo examiners that apparently couldn’t find a followup question if their pitiful lives depended on it.
59 - the needed them to come from OLC, he was Bybee’s top assistant, available while Bybee was out campaigning to be judge, and he was putty for the right people.
OT - black holes in cyberspace.
I can think of one time when FBI agents NOT working on a case got involved wiht the jurors. The legendary (and much worshipped by me) Walter Mack was trying a mafia case in SDNY. At the same time EDNY found out the mob had bribed a juror on the case. They went ahaead making their case against the juror and the mobsters, all w/o telling Walter who went through the rest of the trial not knowing he was screwed no matter how well he did.
LS - If it was anything like Bradbury, Yoo was put in a room with pen and paper and told by Addington to give answers to ‘hypothetical situations.’
Since Yoo, like Bradbury after him, got the job, we can almost assume he showed just the right amounts of Moral Blindness, Professional Slickness and Lapdog Enthusiam to be fed the really good stuff that Bush wanted Green-lighted.
jm2c
Berkeley Law School now has a new and special meaning for it’s alumni. The University of California has had a devastating legacy with Reagan and Wilson terms in office, now Arnold, son of a nazi. Guess you can make only so many compromises before you become irrelevant.
Good description of Bell Canada.
I must concur, but I hope Prf Foland is correct and that the hard work digging into his craptastic citation/lack thereof is already in the works.
Never heard of it before.
I just finished a civil jury trial. After entry of the judgment the judge allowed us to speak to the jurors, but only if they wanted to speak to us and only in the deliberation room.
A worthwile experience, BTW. Got a lot of valuable feedback.
I expect you’re right. And, we can be sure that the administration is spending a not insignificant amount of time speculating on what, how, and when they will be called to respond further. Their HR dept is in overdrive, and the EEOC folks are ginned up and ready. UC simply hopes (fervently prays?) the Yoo storm converges outside their purview. They will respond, but they do not want to initiate. Second position is much safer for UC.
Side note: FWIW, Scott Horton was under the impression that Yoo was a member of the CA and PA Bar.
62 - I agree Yoo is worse (and that Clinton had a technical depo point - and also that Starr was just a maniac - I’m still pissed about ignoring state law on taping conversations and that woman who was threatened having her adoption undone).
But I agree based in part on things that aren’t in evidence or part of an under oath proceeding. Basically, I’m just saying the foundation needs work - not that the house shouldn’t be built here.
If he’s teaching con law, then are some poor kids stuck with him on a non-elective basis? I think they should petition for him to have a babysitter in his classes and for grading, lest he forget to teach them about cases like Youngstown, Milligan, Alstoetter and to make sure someone in class at least knows that the Fourth Amendment is in effect even today.
Edley (Dean in 2003) didn’t hire him.
Yoo kept his tenure while on leave to commit crimes.
Edley was Dean when Yoo bounced back; If Yoo is convicted or disbarred, I’d guess they would fire him or relieve him of teaching duties at a minimum.
Which raises the issue, if the Majority of the faculty and dean think he is fullashit, why not relieve him of teaching duties or teach Law for PE Majors….
If Yoo had cited “zenith” the Youngstown, uh, lacuna would have leapt right off the page. The word “zenith” strikes me as the smoking gun, Yoo-accountability-wise.
Yesterday I told you all that, indeed, he is an active member of the Pa. bar.
I agree with TPM, it is the LAWYERS who speak to the jurors and only with the juror’s consent.
The ONLY reason I can think of for FBI unrelated to the case to be asking to talk to them, is if there is some reaosn to suspect jury tampering. You wuld conduc tthat as a seperate investigation, better stil with a “chinese wall” seperating from the case in chief
OT - House Repugs now going to shift focus from NEW FISA and immunizing telcos to making Bushco’s 2001 tax cuts permanent.
Kinda reminds me of Jerry Falwell going after the purple TeleTubby for being gay, right when it became clear the Clinton impeachment would fail.
72
LOL not a bad thought. The human pyramids will be clothed, but he can get used to that.
Rincewind (btw, I’m a big Pratchett fan) got the first shot at setting me straight. I can picture a torture solicitor cum Law for PE Majors prof in a Pratchett book, though.
Heh heh. If you haven’t done it before, or haven’t done it much, chat them up if they are willing. DO NOT alter anything you do as a result though. After a few times, it just drives you bonkers talking to them unless there is a specific point you need.
Frankly, I think it was the US Attorney tampering with the jurors - past and future. As TPM noted, any potential juror on the retrial being aware that the FBI came out to the other jurors when they failed to convict, might be inclined to convict just to avoid an FBI visit.
I had the FBI visit a former office of mine a couple times - nothing we had done - and it’s distinctly uncomfortable.
Of course, it’s nothing like getting the FBI guy to go to the wiseass-character who works the front desk in the building’s atrium, flashing his badge under desk guy’s nose and saying “Hey, [insert first name]! Long time, no see! You staying out of trouble?”
JBalkin has a thoughtful thread at Yale entitled something like, ‘War Crimes Prosecution?–Dream On.’ Downthread there, writer MField describes more of a map like the one Conyers’ invite might initialize, a careful expository of the compartments that incubated Yoo in the Bush administration. One of the longtime workers in the DTA+MCA processes provides a link to correspondence sent to the National Lawyers Guild in the Yoo scandal, addressing the responsibilities professional associations bear for cleaning house; most of that missive is excerpting Edley, but the author CGittings adds some lawCites and one paragraph of personal opinion at the end of the document. JBalkin is parallelPosting at ConvictionsBlog atSlate, where also declaratively MLederman has joined the argumentation against various academics on Yoo’s topical work.
I tend to agree with JBalkin’s article’s title’s prognostication, but believe his reasoning more laborious. In an ancient writing, a cryptic early thinker propounded a more visceral reasoning in the Poet