Just about everyone is talking about ABC's confirmation of what we already knew: the torture was approved--in excruciating detail--by the most senior members of the Bush Administration.
In dozens of top-secret talks and meetings in the White House, the most senior Bush administration officials discussed and approved specific details of how high-value al Qaeda suspects would be interrogated by the Central Intelligence Agency, sources tell ABC News.
The so-called Principals who participated in the meetings also approved the use of "combined" interrogation techniques -- using different techniques during interrogations, instead of using one method at a time -- on terrorist suspects who proved difficult to break, sources said.
Highly placed sources said a handful of top advisers signed off on how the CIA would interrogate top al Qaeda suspects -- whether they would be slapped, pushed, deprived of sleep or subjected to simulated drowning, called waterboarding.
The high-level discussions about these "enhanced interrogation techniques" were so detailed, these sources said, some of the interrogation sessions were almost choreographed -- down to the number of times CIA agents could use a specific tactic.
The advisers were members of the National Security Council's Principals Committee, a select group of senior officials who met frequently to advise President Bush on issues of national security policy.
At the time, the Principals Committee included Vice President Cheney, former National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Colin Powell, as well as CIA Director George Tenet and Attorney General John Ashcroft.
Now, the article is actually incredibly vague about which of the high-value detainees the Principals discussed interrogating. For example, it suggests that Abu Zubaydah's torture was planned by the Principals. But then--where elsewhere it asserts that all of the Principals approved the torture--it backs off that claim specifically with regards to Zubaydah.
But after Zubaydah recovered from his wounds at a secret CIA prison in Thailand, he was uncooperative.
[snip]
The CIA wanted to use more aggressive -- and physical -- methods to get information.
The agency briefed high-level officials in the National Security Council's Principals Committee, led by then-National Security Advisor Rice and including then-Attorney General Ashcroft, which then signed off on the plan, sources said. It is unclear whether anyone on the committee objected to the CIA's plans for Zubaydah.
"The agency" briefed the Principals Committee (note the briefers remain unnamed), which, as a group signed off on the plan. But rather than asserting (as the article does elsewhere) that "sources said that at each discussion, all the Principals present approved," the specific discussion of Zubaydah notes that, "it is unclear whether anyone on the committee objected to the CIA's plans for Zubaydah."
Immediately after the discussion of Zubaydah, the article goes on to discuss Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's waterboarding without stating one way or another whether the Principals approved the details of his torture, either.
Now I don't mean to suggest that the Principals did not approve the water-boarding of Zubaydah and KSM--or of any other torture subject. I'm perfectly willing to believe that all of the Principals approved such things, even Powell.
I'm raising the alternating specificity and vagueness of this story to suggest certain things about its probable purpose. Ask yourself, where did this story come from? Who are the "highly-placed sources" behind this story?
Those who actually received the briefings would be limited to the Principals--who would have no incentive to admit they approved of torture--and their deputies (so, Libby, Stephen Hadley, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Armitage, John McLaughlin, and Larry Thompson, then Comey--though given the Administration's habit of excluding Thompson from sensitive details, I wouldn't assume that he was included). I could see Armitage revealing embarrassing details about Cheney, but not ones that implicated Powell; and McLaughlin I'll put aside for the moment. As for the others, at least one of them has been willing to get convicted of a felony rather than rat on his boss, so I doubt they're sources for this story.
Then there are the people who did the briefing: "CIA directors Tenet and later Porter Goss along with agency lawyers." Now we're getting someplace.
Porter Goss, though he hasn't AFAIK gone on the record once during the discussions of the torture tapes, has been feeding regular leaks to the press throughout. And Scott Muller--General Counsel of the CIA until 2004--has told journalists working on the torture tape story that he opposed the destruction of the tapes. John Rizzo--acting General Counsel after Muller left--has been less adept at working the press than Goss and Muller, though he has made it clear that junior lawyers at the CIA, not him, gave Jose Rodriguez the green light to destroy the torture tapes. All three men would be closely questioned in the DOJ investigation of the destruction of the torture tapes.
Add in the fact that the single named source in this story is John Kiriakou--the same guy who appeared on ABC to admit that the CIA had water-boarded just as the whole torture tape story was breaking (Kiriakou also worked for Robert Grenier in 2003, though I don't know if he was still working for him when Grenier was reportedly fired for opposing enhanced torture).
In other words, the most likely people behind this story are the same people who were working diligently, in December and January, to make sure the CIA alone did not pay for the destruction of the torture tapes.
This story does not--as earlier stories have--list the lawyers at the White House who were briefed on the torture tapes: Condi's NSA lawyer John Bellinger, Cheney's lawyer Addington, and Bush's lawyer Alberto Gonzales.
Rather, it strongly suggests (without, finally, asserting it directly) that the President's top aides--the Principals those three lawyers were expected to protect--approved every method used with Abu Zubaydah. That is, the President's top aides approved of everything that would have been revealed on the torture tapes, had they not been destroyed. Additionally--with the placement of John Ashcroft in the meetings--it puts DOJ at the center of discussions approving all the methods used (though of course Alberto Gonzales, and not Ashcroft, was in charge of DOJ during the destruction of the tapes).
What this article does--aside from tell us what we already knew--is explain why the top lawyers in the Administration would have a motive to approve of the destruction of the torture tapes. And heck, while we're at it, it pressures those same top lawyers to try to stop the inquiry, to prevent any more damning details (Bush's participation?) get leaked to ABC.
You don't suppose John Durham's investigation is honing in on the CIA, do you?
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Can’t start the day without a new emptywheel post!
amen
The CIA is determined not to hang alone.
emptywheel:
I think you said something about things snowballing.
Criminals all. The list keeps getting longer. Will our Government have the guts to pursue the criminals or wil it be up to international/European courts?
You know, the more I think about it, this is an implicit threat to confirm Bush’s attendance in these sessions (and as the sadistic creep he is, how could he not). The President attends the Principals meetings–that’s their purpose, a discussion with the President.
Ergo: implied threat. You get Durham to back off, or the President gets outed as the guy who approved the torture.
My understanding of the expected defense of the destruction of the tapes goes as this: “since we were told (and believed) that the interrogations were legal, it wasn’t obstruction when we wiped the tapes.”
The main problem with this defense is that there was some court order already in effect to protect all information relevant to possible torture.
I’m not sure about the reply to the latter issue, but could someone tell me if I have it straight so far? TIA
And there goes the very last shred of dignity that Colin Powell ever had.
Exactly. “If we’re going down, you’re coming right along with us…”
See, I think there IS no defense, and that’s why we’re seeing this come out.
The biggest question is, did the CIA adequately shield people like Rizzo–who had to have known about the ongoing requests for information–from the two lawyers who, in principle but not in fact, approved the destruction? I doubt it.
And have Durham’s investigators found the Negroponte letter telling Goss not to destroy the tapes, and have they proven that Goss could have–but didn’t–stop the destruction.
Once you have that, you have criminal liability from someone, probably both Rizzo and Goss.
So the idea with this leak is to 1) try to convince the WH to shut down the investigation, and 2) to signal that they will go after DOJ’s complicity in the torture if it comes to a trial.
This also gives more emphasis on the most recent interview that Powell gave where he heaps praise on all three candidates. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket if you may find someone sitting on you. On this issue, Powell and McCain appear to speak on both sides of the issue.
And, obviously the CIA’s lawyers didn’t believe Yoo et al.’s selective lawyering but couldn’t out-maneuver them. So they had to find a way to protect themselves for what they were being ordered to do. I have no illusions about the CIA and what they do, but good grief.
Also, this is such classic corporate warfare. Been there, witnessed that. Never underestimate the strategic abilities of upper middle management. They’re smarter and they’ll find a way to rip the veil that shields their masters. It may take longer than anyone wishes, but it happens.
I agree a threat, but not about the President’s presence at these meetings.
It is a startlingly unanswered question, but an obvious one.
How could a reporter not ask and answer in print the question of whether the president .
And since, as you note, “Just about everyone is talking about ABC’s confirmation of what we already knew”, the President might be asked directly at today’s 1030 presser.
Someone is going to ask. There are just too many people who know the answer to this question to be a primary threat about whether Bush was there are not.
The real threat is regarding WHAT ELSE the CI leaker knows about presidential complicity in badness…..
The article is coy, as threats can be.
I’ve been trying to remember who the deputies were; thanks for that list.
My thought about the source was different, based on this passage:
Then-Attorney General Ashcroft was troubled by the discussions. He agreed with the general policy decision to allow aggressive tactics and had repeatedly advised that they were legal. But he argued that senior White House advisers should not be involved in the grim details of interrogations, sources said.
According to a top official, Ashcroft asked aloud after one meeting: “Why are we talking about this in the White House? History will not judge this kindly.”
That is, Ashcroft himself. But your agency theory holds more water.
in educating myself about prosecutor Durham i found this illuminating:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Durham
“Durham revealed secret FBI documents” were the words that struck me.
so.
i suppose
“You don’t suppose John Durham’s investigation is focusing exclusively on the CIA, do you?”
is like snark at the expense of the Times reporters?
oh, yes, i see now:
BeCause, jim, EW has just illuminated the cheneyBu$h co. snakes-in-the-grass at work: blaming the CIA and feeding these abc reporters.
also, from March 28:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03.....ref=slogin
my bold
have i missed these house intel committee hearings yet?
Maybe authorial laziness, but their wording is the same as Ashcroft’s:
“Sources said the extraordinary involvement of the senior advisers in the grim details of exactly how individual interrogations would be conducted showed how seriously officials took the al Qaeda threat.”
There goes W’s plausible deniability. Remember his television appearance after the Abu Ghraib photos were released assuring the Arab world that the court martials would reveal that the actions depicted were those of “a few bad apples”.
I am sure most of you remember but it needs to be stated. Has he been exposed in a more blatant act of dishonesty. Now there can be no doubt that he is complicit. Or should we accept that because we were at “war” the American public should have assumed he was lying?
That was almost my first thought when I began to hear the story; this is the man who laughed about the execution of Carla Faye in TX. Isn’t his history kiling animals? Yes, sadistic, and one can envision him laughing and getting off on the torture images. Thanks for your commentary.
I think, by Ashcroft, the President is outed:
“Why are we talking about this in the White House?”
Cheney has an office at the White House, but would Ashcroft really be surprised to be talking about torture in Cheney’s office?
Is it of any significance that he is the only one who could not be reached for comment?
That “History” quote, a gratuitous injection of “conscience” into the story, flatters him.
OT - NO COMMENT
I guess when he says No Comment, he means no comment.
The timing on this is rather fascinating. As I note, they lack details for the briefings pertaining to Zubaydah, which would have happened in 2002. But they have a great deal of specificity for a 2003 briefing and a 2004 briefing.
Muller would presumably have been at those briefings. Don’t know about Rizzo, though.
But also note, Bellinger, Gonzales, and Addington got a briefing on the torture tapes in early May 2004 (not summer, but close). Goldsmith left in July 2004 (announced his resignation in June 2004). And Tenet and McLaughlin (and, I think, Muller) left in the same June-July timeframe.
OT
Take care of yourself.
The House has interviewed Rodriguez and, I think, Rizzo–did it some time ago. But the lapse may be intended for the Durham investigation to first interview these witnesses, before the House gets involved. In any case, the House inquiry will not be public. And Hoekstra is sure to protect Goss, to the extent he can.
This is a major bummer….
Probably not. Since he’s no longer in govt, it’s a matter of reaching his private spokesperson (as with Powell). In spite of this Administration’s arrogance wrt the press, an Admin spokesperson is going to be obliged to at least no comment in timely fashion. Ashcroft’s spokesperson has no such obligation, even if he is getting millions in handouts from DOJ.
Could the tapes have contained chimpy’s laugh over the intercom while the victim was screaming? Or maybe the cheering of the whole group? Is that why they needed to be distroyed in spite of the admission of what was done?
I’d like to claim that was snark, but now?
This seems suspicious to me:
“A year later, amidst the outcry over unrelated abuses of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib…”
Why slip in the word unrelated? It’s related through Rumsfeld, the President, all sorts of ways. Even in an article going after this Administration, the Press can’t help protecting them, in all sorts of little ways.
One distinct possibility (which I like because it supports my theory, so I’m biased) is that it pinpoints the timing to May 2004, when we know the Administration was also in talks about the torture tapes.
Agree that GWBush’s, as well as Dick Cheney’s, ‘plausible deniability’ claims are almost in complete shreds at this point — at least, among the million plus of us who pay attention.
One thing particularly worries me: two-way, interactive media were available in 2003, 2004, 2004… Technically, it was possible for Bush or Cheney to have viewed torture sessions. I’m not saying this occurred; I’m simply pointing out that the process of examining the scope of possible activities needs to include the possibility that individuals within the WH viewed (or, God forbid, interacted with) torture sessions.
I hope that my suspicions are ill-founded and without merit. Nevertheless, the extreme measures taken by Bu$hCheney to ensure destruction of evidence tells any thinking person that whatever was on those tapes was utterly damning. Would those videotapes have revealed WH officials observed, commented on, or in any way interacted with those who carried out torture sessions?
Again, I hope that my anxieties and suspicions are groundless. But beginning last fall when this first started to surface and heat up, GWBush began to look like a quivering puddle of nerves, which seems like a red flag.
So question for Pelosi: if clear evidence of War Crimes by Bush and Cheney is produced, THEN would impeachment be ‘back on the table’?
————–
OT, but Sad news over at Harpers.org/NoComment; Scott Horton, evidently exhausted by the demands of his workload + blogload, is packing it in with respect to the daily NoComment posts. Blogging (and being online so frequently) can be a health risk — everyone get a walk in today!
You were more succinct than I.
That’s also my worry.
Why else try to ensure the absolute destruction of those tapes?
It’s too bizarre. Particularly given what anyone who pays attention knows about GWBush’s history.
Since we pretty much know the techniques they used, they didn’t destroy the tapes to cover what they did, that leaves other stuff that is being covered up.
interrogator: “..yes Mr. President, he knows that last one was from you…”
The firewall is already in place with legislation granting retroactive immunity for war crimes if I am not mistaken. It becomes clear then why the obstruction of justice angle EW suggests is the lynchpin.
I couldn’t agree more — but I am thinking more one than two. I hope two is correct. I would love for them to find Gonzo’s fingerprints all over the destruction of the tapes, just as they are all over the destruction of the DOJ.
Durham is not so independent from DOJ as Fitz was, so it may be a very weak investigation/case with him. I don’t trust anything with the DOJ anymore.
Speaking of the destruction of justice, is anyone following the Mississippi Supreme Court Justice Oliver Diaz Jr. story. Another Siegleman case. It’s very interesting.
I think the non-independence of Durham is precisely the issue.
BushCo DOES have the power to squelch the investigation. As we’ve seen repeatedly, Cheney has sent his own personal lawyer to do just that, on occasion.
Great!!
So basically somebody has already put the rabbit in the pot (Condi) as a threat?
Hmm.
You and I are thinking in parallel.
JThomason @35, a number of their firewalls are already swiss-cheesy, and here’s hoping the lynchpin is soon demolished. Corruption this deep is simply not sufficient to sustain itself over any period of time; and we’ve already seen plenty of rats leave on the earlier lifeboats.
The rabbit is Bush and he remains out of the pot for now. Condi AND Cheney are simply the onions and carrots to add flavor to the pot.
Really the metaphor was intended to imply that if Congress can grasp the “lynchpin” of obstructin then the entire machinery of corruption is undone.
Yup. Just goes to show that no one gets out of this administration with clean hands. It’s almost like a criminal organization where they make sure that everyone is incriminated so that no one can rat the others out.
“obstruction” even
No, there is no defense. There never was. All the parsing and tripe over court orders here and there is, and always has been superfluous icing on the destruction of evidence/obstruction of justice cake. The simple fact of the matter is that the tapes were material evidence as to the “cases” of the subjects of the taped torture/interrogations themselves. There is no argument around this, and thus no defense.
As to the thought by those above (29, 33 and 34) um, no, I don’t think it credible to think there is a laugh track or other evidence on the tapes from chimps or principles. Among other reasons, or at least possible reasons, my guess is that the tapes would not only have graphically demonstrated what occurred (remember everyone knew about abu-Gharaib, but the pictures cast the die), but more importantly, I think they would have demonstrated conclusively the worthlessness of the information received from the torture. That would be the death stroke for the torture-meisters.
Really then, it is only a matter of time. It could take ten years (I doubt it) but over time the truth will come out. One day, when I do not know, we will be referring to this administration as war criminals. Who knows how big this is or how many it will touch in the end, but the truth is coming as it always does eventually. I am impatient, and wish we would have a collective awareness, restore our reputation and prosecute these crimes. They may never be prosecuted, but I do believe that history will tell the truth on this one.
TPM has a piece on DiFi trying to pin down Mukasey on the 4th this morning: whether all those memos saying it doesn’t apply in ‘domestic military operations’ have been withdrawn. He was trying to duck-dodge-bob-weave out of it and she actually kept pushing.
I’m not sure it WILL come out. THe folks at CIA who briefed these guys would not, normally, have an incentive to expose the fact that they were involved in torture. It’s only the fact that they’re at risk of prosecution–even while Cheney et al are protecting themselves–that leads them to expose the details of these briefings, I suspect.
Thus, if the threat of prosecution were to disappear tomorrow, I suspect it would be rather difficult to force these people to come clean.
thanks for your previous reply, ew.
abc
… snip …
my bolds
Can’t Phillipe Sands’ friends convict Condi of war crimes with this evidence?
ah, condi for starters.
I’m not surprised by any of the Principals. After all Colin Powell covered up My Lai and I’ve never heard one expression of regret from him. During his tenure in Vietnam, while American troops didn’t openly practice torture, they did turn over women North Vietnamese nurses to the South Korean troops for interrogation, which meant hideous torture. None that I know of survived.
They all need to be held accountable along with John Yoo.
ISTM that a lot of the info could only have come from CIA sources, and it does have the same ring of “We’re not going down alone” that we’ve seen from other leaks.
But — a couple of quotes sound precisely like Addington at his no-filter/?Asbergers? worst. The two that really jumped out at me:
“It kept coming up. CIA wanted us to sign off on each one every time,” said one high-ranking official who asked not to be identified. “They’d say, ‘We’ve got so and so. This is the plan.’”
and
“These discussions weren’t adding value,” a source said. “Once you make a policy decision to go beyond what you used to do and conclude it’s legal, (you should) just tell them to implement it.”
The article doesn’t connect these two quotes, but they hang together as a narrative from a single source, whose (sole) focus was “Hey, we told ‘em to go ahead, and they kept wasting our time with the same old same old”. This has to be a non-CIA source — talking about “us” and “them” — and complaining that they “weren’t adding value” is classic Addington. He’s peeved about the lack of efficiency in implementing the decisions, but no concern for the illegality or immorality of the decisions.
Mutual assured destruction.
No one fires a shot, they just let eat other know what ammo they’re prepared to use.
I see Bush as the wayward spouse who’s strayed, the unknown entity (Cheney?) as the wild-eyed crazy Glenn Close fling, and Condi as the pet bunny in the pot.
I just don’t see Tenet, Goss, etc. being motivated enough to through Dubya’s little girlfriend in boiling water like that. That seems like a pretty big move for these two craven doormats.
Maybe we’re not thinking of the same movie.
Condi just announced she will not run for veep but is returning to Stanford. Does this mean the Hoover Institute? She should be exposed like Yoo for her part in torture. Pressure is coming down on the Boalt School regarding Yoo. The same should apply to Rice at Stanford. May she not be welcomed there.
That is as fine a piece of deduction as I have ever seen you make!
GREAT!!
Shrub was actually telling the truth. He just doesn’t mention that the “few bad apples” were all part of the white House.
You know, I agree completely that this has to be a non-CIA source.
Though given the other comments–particularly Ashcroft’s “history will just us” one, don’t you think it likely that it’s Ashcroft of someone tied to him?
It’s not, verbally, Addington’s Aspergers. It has none of the conjunctive, run-on sentences. Too focused to be him.
Maybe I am wrong here, but it seems like there are enough puzzle peices at this point to have a pretty exciting expose the likes of “Who Really Killed JFK”, given what we know NOW. (as a result of the prosecution) It might not happen in this protective climate, but even the mob has it’s story tellers, eventually. I thank god that we know what we do. I hope we learn more. But…there is enough here to make any american queasy, if it were put together and presented in a skillful way. (as you do)
The point is not throwing Condi herself in the pot (though Tenet clearly has reasons he would enjoy that). It’s threatening Bush and, secondarily, those he loves best.
I just don’t see Condi as the exclusive focus here that you do–particularly not with Cheney named at the meeting where they approved combined methods.
If this is what he truly meant he never would have nominated Condi for SOS.
No one–not even Bush the elder–has fallen on his or her sword for Bush the Younger, and no one ever will, not even Condoleeza Rice (because she, like everyone else, knows that he’d never fall on his sword for her). Cheney, of course, will stonewall–he was put on the earth to do this–and will never find himself having to deny, let alone to admit, that 43 was in that room, watching those tapes and getting high on the spectacle of torture (because he’s a voyeur as well as a sadist).
But as for everyone else? At some point, for whatever reason, some of these folks will testify to the goings-on. Convincingly. Bush won’t be standing trial when this happens–our justice system will protect him from that–but he’ll be alive when the story is told. And how will he react? Pretty much as he did when that reporter once asked him if he could recall having made a mistake–i.e. with a mute shrug of the shoulders. He did nothing wrong, he was doing his job, he had a country to protect, he does the work of the Lord.
And so the testimony of the witnesses will fall flat, as it always does where the wrong-doings of this man are concerned. I also think it will stay “flat”–that no one will really feel the outrage that they know they ought to feel–before another fifty or sixty years have gone by (during the latter years of grandchildren, let’s say). At which point, maybe, this story, relegated so long to the closet as a skeleton, will be brought out and dusted off to the astonishment of all and sundry. And what will they make of it all? Might a Jeremiah be moved by an ongoing scandal of the day to denounce the whole, long-gone affair in furious, prophetic prose? If so, it might make for an interesting moment, but won’t change the pattern at play.
If we get a prosecution, I agree. If we don’t, then who knows if these sources will go silent or not.
Another tidbit for the puzzle . . .
Over at Legalities, Jan Crawford Greenburg says this is a story “that I’ve spent the last five months reporting.” I can’t tell if she means the general story of who approved what or more specifically “someone came to me with info five months ago, and we’ve spent the time since nailing down other pieces.”
Either way, five months ago puts us in mid-November. Time to go check that timeline . . .
Torture tapes were revealed in early December. The other missing tapes in the Moussaoui prosecution were earlier.
And from EW’s helpful Torture Tapes Timeline (T cubed?), we note this:
Interesting . . .
The thing is, the quotes put the CIA in a better light, as they’re seen as persistently having reservations and seeking legal cover.
But Cheney could give a rat’s ass about being disclosed as one of the principals. “So?” would be his response to any question of his attendance at high-level principals’ meetings. And while his fingerprints were all over the Plame outing, he generally had the same sentiment about the outing itself. “So?” As principal, he’s entitled to deliberate about anything necessary to save the country for his corporate peeps.
Ashcroft has been getting dogged here recently about his rather nice gig, too, which also sets the mind to running as to whether the hush money simply wasn’t enough and he’s having second thoughts.
I guess I’d think less about Condi if it weren’t for the fact she’s been relatively untarnished enough by all the evil of this administration, to the point where somebody actually ran up a Veep balloon for her. Nice little bunny, everybody wants the bunny, forgetting the little bunny has fangs and bites…and then sploosh, somebody boils the bunny and changes the subject.
Maybe the challenge is multiple sources. I think one of them cooked the bunny; you think that at least one of the sources could give a hoot about the bunny and is focused on Bush. One of these sources knows exactly what Ashcroft said, not unlike that day in the hospital.
Saturn is retrograde and retracing the Virgo station it held when Abu Gonzo resigned late last Summer. Could the J. Dean strategy of working up the ladder be yet unfolding? Will Condi be the next to fall?
Nobody ran up a Veep flag for her. Until we have reason to believe differently (including some indication that every Republican out there knows that Republicans will not name a black probably gay woman to be their Veep), we ought to assume that she ran the Veep flag up herself, as she has before.
I hope to god the current buzz about Condoleezza Rice being a potential VP candidate for McBush actually comes to pass. I would love to see her chickens come home to roost with regard to this atrocity and have it played out in the MSM, but I’m realistic enough to recognize that the chances of the MSM behaving as anything other than lapdogs is nil. Still, I long to see these monsters held accountable in some venue, somewhere. If only there were a Court of FDL!
Well, given what the article says, if his investigation isn’t honing in on Ashcroft, he has no honing mechanism.
Apparently Ashcroft’s position was, *approve depravity in the hypothetical, but golly, I’m not sure I really want to know who is having what depraved things done to them based on my OK* From the article:
Why, indeed, are “we talking about this?”
Think about all the cases being brought, so many courts, so many proceedings, all raising torture and torture authorizations, and yet never even ONE preservation notice going out? Gosh, looks like the answer to that one is in the bag, doesn’t it? The Attorney General of the United States didn’t want a record kept of what torture he authorized. He didn’t even want to talk out loud about it - just ok the abstract and go.
I actually think Larry Thompson was better clued in than you might think. He was clued in enough to refuse to sign the FISC applications because he had enough info to know that he was violating the FISC firewall orders when he did, and he was clued in enough to be a direct sign off participant in disappearing Maher Arar to Syrian torture, via Jordan (Jordan being apparently a hot spot destination for others DOJ was approving for long distance torture - - - which may explain a bit more about the suicide bombing in Jordan that so surprised everyone who didn’t know Jordan was torturing “suspects” for the US).
In any event, Ashcroft knowing about torture, especially Z’s torture, especially with it raised directly in Padilla’s case from the get go, and no on preserving evidence - including the evidence relating to those conferences - if Durham doesn’t have Ashcroft lined up, then the joke is already over.
this part is incorrect from everything I have read, they were getting the most information before they were “ordered” to torture by cheney and they didn’t want to use those techniques
There’s also a logical connection between these two consecutive sentences:
Ashcroft’s reservations about “grim details” are of a pair with the first source’s reservations. I assume “source” is not the same as Ashcroft, but the outlook is the same, fear of getting caught and exasperation over being asked to leave a trail.
The path out of Wonderland just got harder to find. Scott Horton announced that today will his last daily blog at Harper’s No Comment. He’s devoting himself to longer pieces.
Like going cold turkey off good Berkeley coffee, I think we’ll all miss the daily infusion of his legal, literary and multi-national-lingual insights and his restrained passion for civil liberties. Rare perspectives (in print, at least) among top-flight New York corporate lawyers.
Can’t wait to see what longer articles and books he comes up with to expose this lawless regime and to help light the path ahead.
I’m a little surprised that the “principals without principles” didn’t catch on to what the CIA was doing. That whole business about getting them to sign off on each poke, prod, and splash was done for exactly one reason. Somebody in the CIA was holding on to every one of those memos. We need to find that person and charge them with war crimes. Then, that person deals on a lesser charge in return for the smoking gun implicating the higher-ups. I’m actually shocked that Cheney didn’t see that coming.
I wondered where we will find his work, still at Harper’s or in many different publications?
Losing Scott Horton as a daily read is another blow like losing Billmon
some time back. I hope to see some longer work to compensate… back at
the lake the daily grind continues, much to our relief here.
Some of the signs I’ve put up against torture:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot.....llery.html
Have a nice Uday!
I wouldn’t mind if he showed up at Vanity Fair so they could kick Hitchens to the curb. Good Lord! According to the Churchillian maxim, I’m supposed to become more conservative with age, but I’ve gotten to the point where I literally scream at any publication carrying Hitchen’s work. It’s starting to scare the children. Mr. Horton would be a great help!
excellent analysis EW. what do you make of ABC’s role?
cheney is a moron who acts like he has brains
Mary @71 and brendanx @73 make good points for Ashcroft or somebody in Ashcroft’s corner as the source of those quotes, but they still strike me as a peevish whine about time-wasting inefficiency rather than concern about substance or about being forced to repeatedly hear about/respond to all those nasty details.
I would love to Condi as the VP candidate. Just think of the 30 sec spots of her “no could have anticipated(insert event here) statements.
Agree. Something that bothers me about the ABC piece is the way that several times they work in statements to make it seem like it was worth it. Much like Kiriakou when he made the rounds, the message is “we were just doing it to protect you” and “we got information that stopped more attacks” and “we got them to spill”.
All designed to muddy the waters and get the public to think that maybe it was o.k.
I heard that the first episode of “24″ this season will feature Jack Bauer testifying in congress, want to guess what his character will say?
This is intolerable!
I guess our national policy comes down to “the dog ate our detainees” and we still haven’t convicted any of these bastards.
Why, oh why did Pelosi take “take impeachment off the table”? There will never be any accountability for any of this.
EW,
When’s your NEXT TRIP? Just wondering what is to HIT the fan next and when?
BTW, great deductive thinking. When I heard the report on ABC last night, my first statement was, “EW is going ask the question, ‘Who sourced this?’” And Charlie’s (forgive me, Charles) Gibson’s follow-up statements and questions were incredibly “staged”. I felt like the “source” wrote them…
I wrote this a few times last week, here I go again. We need something solid on Cheney ASAP…
brendanx
Nicely stated.
Mary,
Great lens on this.
EOH:
I miss PEET’S!!!
“I don’t recall”?
But the three statements progressively reveal the really worry: bureacratic inefficiency (i.e., paper trail), “grim details”, judgment, i.e., prosecution.
Why would someone be merely “peevish” to a reporter, and not self-interested, unless it’s Addington, with his ingenuous candor — but emptywheel has said that’s unlikely @57.
See also @17 for author’s echoes of Ashcroft’s concerns: “grim details”.
And on the fwiw front, I’m going to go back to the things Coleman and Suskind and others have mentioned about Z’s torture. It didn’t start because of a ticking time bomb.
NSA and intel thought Z was very operationally important in Al-Qaeda bc his name kept coming up in intercepts. So, as soon as he was captured, instead of staying quiet about the capture while intel went through his laptops and other info taken with him, and instead of waiting to see if he recovered from his injuries enough to be coherent, Bush went out and made speeches about how we had captured the “number 3″ guy in al-Qaeda. Having the disaster of 9/11 as his personal responsiblity, but seeing that somehow people were willing to overlook it and support him anyway, he wanted to make sure they kept seeing him as now being something other than a failure, so he made sure he “bragged on himself” to look good.
Then the bad news. First he discovers that Z’s questioning might be on hold a bit bc his pain medications make it difficult to get coherent info (Bush’s response was to growl over who authorized pain meds) Then the very immediate word that Z isn’t actually the number 3 guy, isn’t operationally significant, is more in the nature of “Joe, the Greeter” and is also completely and certifiably nuts (agents are reviewing his documents which include a journal obsessing over bizarre minutaie and written in three personas).
So Bush is being given the reasons to not expect much more from the questioning than the info that was taken in the laptops, but his response to Tenet is an order for Tenet to make sure they don’t let Bush look bad - he said we had the number 3 guy, so Tenet damn well better get something out of him.
The ticking time bomb? Bush’s temper, ignited by his vanity, fueled by his resounding failures and need to still feel worthy and important and loved and respected as “right” and “strong” and “good.”
The biggest problem with the linked story is when they refer to, “amidst the outcry over unrelated abuses of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib”
There was noting unrelated about it. Memos were all over the place by then, saying that it was ok to torture and assualt and abuse and humiliate; Ashcroft - per the story itself - was repeatedly giving the certification of legality to abuse of detainees; Gonzales had urged Bush originally to adopt the “unlawful enemy combatant” rationale because they could claim that, under the War Crimes Act, war crimes would magically become non-crimes if the victims were “unlawful;” just as the US public, the military was being told and was telling its soldiers that Iraq was tied to 9/11 and while there may have been pieces of paper making distinctions about al-Qaeda and Iraq’s regular army, in general the rules continued (until Goldsmith - devil here’s your due) to be iterated and reiterated that the Geneva Conventions just didn’t apply (and even Goldsmith has his name on a bizarre draft memo allowing violations of the Geneva Conventions against people clearly covered by those GCs, as long as the violations aren’t permanent); Taguba’s reports and interviews and the memos going to Haynes and a slew of other things all make it clear that Military Intelligence (MI) was getting the same word as the CIA - let loose your inner demons on whoever you have chained up and just don’t worry too much about whether they are really al-Qaeda or not, make them talk or make them feel they will have to become an informer for us.
Powell and his State Dept GC at the time (pre-Bellinger) said it in the memos to Bush - - the military, if removed from the restrictions of its training and the GCs, if 18 yos are turned loose being told there are no rules, no limits on what they can do, and “these” are “the people” who caused 9/11 - - the military would implode with abuses. They put it in the memo, it’s not “unrelated” at all. In order to have a paper trail to allow Bush and his “Principals” more cover against War Crimes charges, they were willing to do that to the miliary in general; and in order to assuage Bush’s vanity and cover for their own incompetence, Haynes and the “Principals” were ready to send MI places where every single JAG said they shouldn’t go.
It’s not unrelated - it’s what happens when you become a state sponsor of torture on whim.
In response to WilliamOckham @ 75
cheney:
shoots friend in face, but doesn’t follow to hospital to check on him;
married and (don’t even think about!) you-know-whats Lynne Cheney:
so maybe a little torture might not seem like such a big deal?
or
maybe it is a REAL big deal.