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	<title>Comments on: Haynes, Armed Services, Perjury?</title>
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		<title>By: radiofreewill</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/07/haynes-armed-services-perjury/#comment-62974</link>
		<dc:creator>radiofreewill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 05:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;26, 28 - How about a hypothetical?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;- 911 or shortly after, Bush ‘militarizes’ Our response to 911&lt;br /&gt;
- Bush secretly declares himself UE&lt;br /&gt;
- Bush secretly makes ‘Suspicion’ the domestic surveillance standard for Citizens, replacing Probable Cause&lt;br /&gt;
- Bush creates ‘The Program’ to surveil citizens domestically&lt;br /&gt;
- Domestic DB TIA moved to Pentagon&lt;br /&gt;
- Telecoms told to ‘give it up’ for National Security&lt;br /&gt;
- Quantico Circuit(s) installed&lt;br /&gt;
- NSA ‘hooked-up’ to TIA for Foreign input&lt;br /&gt;
- FBI ‘hooked-up’ to TIA for Domestic ‘fetches’ using NSLs&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So, for instance, a ’suspect’ phone call originating in ME lands on an American citizen’s cellphone in Hoboken. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;- NSA intercepts the incoming call, feeds TIA (the Database of The Program)&lt;br /&gt;
- DoD scans the social network of the receiver (to three degrees?) and makes a threat determination&lt;br /&gt;
- For any identified ‘targets’ deemed ‘of interest,’ out go the NSLs through the FBI&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;That seems to me just like what Bush would do. Declare himself King, Above the Law, and Immediately start ‘Over-watching’ the Citizenry for any ‘dissent.’&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So, if the NSLs were being used to launder ‘domestic leads’ generated by The Program at DoD - on the basis of suspicion, which has all kinds of wrongness about it - then is it possible that these DoD NSLs were what Gonzo was cryptically referring to as ‘other intelligence activities’ in his SJC testimony?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Are you saying that it could be the Hospital Visit was about ‘bringing The Program into compliance with the Law’ over the DoD use of NSLs? &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Maybe that’s why Bush and Cheney were so cocky about invading Iraq? Could they have been ‘over-watching’ All of US - looking for ‘unpatriotic dissent’ - as they Drove US with Lies to an Aggressive War of Choice, against a Nation that had nothing to do with 911?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>26, 28 &#8211; How about a hypothetical?</p>
<p>- 911 or shortly after, Bush ‘militarizes’ Our response to 911<br />
- Bush secretly declares himself UE<br />
- Bush secretly makes ‘Suspicion’ the domestic surveillance standard for Citizens, replacing Probable Cause<br />
- Bush creates ‘The Program’ to surveil citizens domestically<br />
- Domestic DB TIA moved to Pentagon<br />
- Telecoms told to ‘give it up’ for National Security<br />
- Quantico Circuit(s) installed<br />
- NSA ‘hooked-up’ to TIA for Foreign input<br />
- FBI ‘hooked-up’ to TIA for Domestic ‘fetches’ using NSLs</p>
<p>So, for instance, a ’suspect’ phone call originating in ME lands on an American citizen’s cellphone in Hoboken. </p>
<p>- NSA intercepts the incoming call, feeds TIA (the Database of The Program)<br />
- DoD scans the social network of the receiver (to three degrees?) and makes a threat determination<br />
- For any identified ‘targets’ deemed ‘of interest,’ out go the NSLs through the FBI</p>
<p>That seems to me just like what Bush would do. Declare himself King, Above the Law, and Immediately start ‘Over-watching’ the Citizenry for any ‘dissent.’</p>
<p>So, if the NSLs were being used to launder ‘domestic leads’ generated by The Program at DoD &#8211; on the basis of suspicion, which has all kinds of wrongness about it &#8211; then is it possible that these DoD NSLs were what Gonzo was cryptically referring to as ‘other intelligence activities’ in his SJC testimony?</p>
<p>Are you saying that it could be the Hospital Visit was about ‘bringing The Program into compliance with the Law’ over the DoD use of NSLs? </p>
<p>Maybe that’s why Bush and Cheney were so cocky about invading Iraq? Could they have been ‘over-watching’ All of US &#8211; looking for ‘unpatriotic dissent’ &#8211; as they Drove US with Lies to an Aggressive War of Choice, against a Nation that had nothing to do with 911?</p>
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		<title>By: sailmaker</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/07/haynes-armed-services-perjury/#comment-62798</link>
		<dc:creator>sailmaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:59:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.salon.com/news/primary_sources/2007/05/15/comey_testimony/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Here is Comey’s May 15, 2007 testimony.&lt;/a&gt; Comey testified that  Mueller was one of the people who was going to resign if ‘the program’ was not put on a legal basis for the mandatory 45 day legal certification. Ashroft was another person who it is said was going to resign, but David Ayres (Ashcroft’s chief of staff) asked that they wait until the following Monday to resign so that Ashcroft would be in better health. This took place on May 10th, the night before the necessary recert,  which was also the night before the Madrid bombings.  Comey (at least in my reading) seems to say that everything was legalized and that, therefore, no mass resignations were necessary on the following Monday. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; Aside: we didn’t know which program or which parts of the program were causing the legal problems.  EW (I think) figured out that at some point there was a limited hang out of ‘the program’ which did not expose the whole thing, and from then on references to ‘the program’ were fuzzy.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.salon.com/news/primary_sources/2007/05/15/comey_testimony/" rel="nofollow"> Here is Comey’s May 15, 2007 testimony.</a> Comey testified that  Mueller was one of the people who was going to resign if ‘the program’ was not put on a legal basis for the mandatory 45 day legal certification. Ashroft was another person who it is said was going to resign, but David Ayres (Ashcroft’s chief of staff) asked that they wait until the following Monday to resign so that Ashcroft would be in better health. This took place on May 10th, the night before the necessary recert,  which was also the night before the Madrid bombings.  Comey (at least in my reading) seems to say that everything was legalized and that, therefore, no mass resignations were necessary on the following Monday. </p>
<p> Aside: we didn’t know which program or which parts of the program were causing the legal problems.  EW (I think) figured out that at some point there was a limited hang out of ‘the program’ which did not expose the whole thing, and from then on references to ‘the program’ were fuzzy.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/07/haynes-armed-services-perjury/#comment-62789</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:26:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;29 - I think Mueller called bc his backside was going to be on the line right there along with Ashcroft’s in the FISC blow up that was going on concurrently.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>29 &#8211; I think Mueller called bc his backside was going to be on the line right there along with Ashcroft’s in the FISC blow up that was going on concurrently.</p>
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		<title>By: sailmaker</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/07/haynes-armed-services-perjury/#comment-62786</link>
		<dc:creator>sailmaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;I should add: by protecting Haynes, Cheney and Addington are really protecting Rumsfeld.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should add: by protecting Haynes, Cheney and Addington are really protecting Rumsfeld.</p>
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		<title>By: sailmaker</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/07/haynes-armed-services-perjury/#comment-62782</link>
		<dc:creator>sailmaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Someone is going to go down (in history at least) for the torture, the extreme renditions, the deaths, the holding of innocents, the war crimes.  Somebody has to go down, or none of the administration can travel outside the country. The logical focal spot should be Cheney, except that as Mary excellently pointed out yesterday, he is the warm-bucket-of-spit-Iago who has the moral responsibility, but none of the legal authority for war crimes. Why did anyone follow his instructions? My guess is that Cheney and Addington using their patented pounding-on-their-high-chair school of management said that the President wanted x,y, or z and anyone who got in their way was impinging upon the President’s power to do whatever he wanted in a time of war.  To a certain degree it was implied that Cheney would be the driver of, or the grownup in foreign policy in the Bush administration.  Cheney got more authority, more power going into the administration than most VPs have coming out. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Back to Haynes. The structure of the MCAs was to give only convictions (kangaroo court by any other name):  defendants could not see the charges, ‘evidence’ collected by torture and hearsay was permitted, the defense lawyers could have little or no contact with the defendants, and on and on.  Colonel Davis said that Haynes said that ‘but we can’t have acquittals, we can only have convictions’.  Goldsmith in his ‘The Terror Presidency’ p. 121 speaks to the difficulty of establishing the procedures for the military commissions, and that the Defense Department  threw up roadblock after roadblock to the development of the military commissions which they believed were fundamentally unfair. Goldsmith p. 122 (typos mine)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt; My time in the Pentagon led me to doubt whether the Defense Department could, without the legitimizing impact of congressional ratification, craft long-term legal policies for incapacitating terrorists.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Haynes was at the DoD while all the rationals for war crimes were being developed. Goldsmith went from Dod to DoJ then quit government.  Note that the DoD not the DoJ declassified Yoo’s memo.  I believe we have a severe case of what I call Thumbelina going on here - not me - he did it (waves thumb at next guy) - not me- he did it (waves thumb at next guy),  with war crimes instead of broken cookie jars. Cross departmental warfare at its worst. The 4th branch - Cheney and Addington, with the lend/lease of their lawyer seem to be trying to prevent ‘fall guy’ from being written into Haynes’ resume.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone is going to go down (in history at least) for the torture, the extreme renditions, the deaths, the holding of innocents, the war crimes.  Somebody has to go down, or none of the administration can travel outside the country. The logical focal spot should be Cheney, except that as Mary excellently pointed out yesterday, he is the warm-bucket-of-spit-Iago who has the moral responsibility, but none of the legal authority for war crimes. Why did anyone follow his instructions? My guess is that Cheney and Addington using their patented pounding-on-their-high-chair school of management said that the President wanted x,y, or z and anyone who got in their way was impinging upon the President’s power to do whatever he wanted in a time of war.  To a certain degree it was implied that Cheney would be the driver of, or the grownup in foreign policy in the Bush administration.  Cheney got more authority, more power going into the administration than most VPs have coming out. </p>
<p>Back to Haynes. The structure of the MCAs was to give only convictions (kangaroo court by any other name):  defendants could not see the charges, ‘evidence’ collected by torture and hearsay was permitted, the defense lawyers could have little or no contact with the defendants, and on and on.  Colonel Davis said that Haynes said that ‘but we can’t have acquittals, we can only have convictions’.  Goldsmith in his ‘The Terror Presidency’ p. 121 speaks to the difficulty of establishing the procedures for the military commissions, and that the Defense Department  threw up roadblock after roadblock to the development of the military commissions which they believed were fundamentally unfair. Goldsmith p. 122 (typos mine)</p>
<blockquote><p> My time in the Pentagon led me to doubt whether the Defense Department could, without the legitimizing impact of congressional ratification, craft long-term legal policies for incapacitating terrorists.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Haynes was at the DoD while all the rationals for war crimes were being developed. Goldsmith went from Dod to DoJ then quit government.  Note that the DoD not the DoJ declassified Yoo’s memo.  I believe we have a severe case of what I call Thumbelina going on here &#8211; not me &#8211; he did it (waves thumb at next guy) &#8211; not me- he did it (waves thumb at next guy),  with war crimes instead of broken cookie jars. Cross departmental warfare at its worst. The 4th branch &#8211; Cheney and Addington, with the lend/lease of their lawyer seem to be trying to prevent ‘fall guy’ from being written into Haynes’ resume.</p>
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		<title>By: maryo2</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/07/haynes-armed-services-perjury/#comment-62770</link>
		<dc:creator>maryo2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:00:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;There has been some question about why Mueller called on the night of the hospital showdown.  Was the Yoo memo applied to FBI NSLs??&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - The Ashcroft Hospital showdown&lt;br /&gt;
“I was headed home. My security detail was driving me.” Comey got a call from Ashcroft’s chief of staff, who said that although Mrs. Ashcroft had “banned all visitors” from her husband’s room in the ICU, where he was in his sixth day, a call had just come to his hospital room indicating that Gonzales, then White House counsel, and Andy Card, then Bush’s chief of staff, were on their way. (Comey seemed to recall that the call to Ashcroft came from the president; he says it certainly came from the White House.) &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Comey made frantic calls to his own chief of staff &lt;b&gt; and to Robert Mueller, then FBI director &lt;/b&gt;, while he raced to the hospital, sirens blasting.”&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There has been some question about why Mueller called on the night of the hospital showdown.  Was the Yoo memo applied to FBI NSLs??</p>
<p>Wednesday, March 10, 2004 &#8211; The Ashcroft Hospital showdown<br />
“I was headed home. My security detail was driving me.” Comey got a call from Ashcroft’s chief of staff, who said that although Mrs. Ashcroft had “banned all visitors” from her husband’s room in the ICU, where he was in his sixth day, a call had just come to his hospital room indicating that Gonzales, then White House counsel, and Andy Card, then Bush’s chief of staff, were on their way. (Comey seemed to recall that the call to Ashcroft came from the president; he says it certainly came from the White House.) </p>
<p>Comey made frantic calls to his own chief of staff <b> and to Robert Mueller, then FBI director </b>, while he raced to the hospital, sirens blasting.”</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/07/haynes-armed-services-perjury/#comment-62769</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 17:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;26 - and whether that was all just a mistake, or whether that Yoo memo was relied on more than has been acknowledged?  maybe too?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>26 &#8211; and whether that was all just a mistake, or whether that Yoo memo was relied on more than has been acknowledged?  maybe too?</p>
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		<title>By: sailmaker</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/07/haynes-armed-services-perjury/#comment-62766</link>
		<dc:creator>sailmaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 17:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;I do not believe that Yoo currently is a member of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://members.calbar.ca.gov/search/member_search.aspx?ms=yoo&amp;s=&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; California bar. &lt;/a&gt; He may be a member of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://legalethicsforum.typepad.com/blog/2008/01/david-lubans-th.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Pennsylvania bar&lt;/a&gt;.  His number is 69500 if one believes what one reads on the intertubes.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not believe that Yoo currently is a member of the <a href="http://members.calbar.ca.gov/search/member_search.aspx?ms=yoo&amp;s=" rel="nofollow"> California bar. </a> He may be a member of the <a href="http://legalethicsforum.typepad.com/blog/2008/01/david-lubans-th.html" rel="nofollow"> Pennsylvania bar</a>.  His number is 69500 if one believes what one reads on the intertubes.</p>
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		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/07/haynes-armed-services-perjury/#comment-62754</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 16:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Speaking of which, the ACLU’s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/34816prs20080408.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;calling on Glenn Fine&lt;/a&gt; to do an investigation of DOD’s use of NSLs.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of which, the ACLU’s <a href="http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/34816prs20080408.html" rel="nofollow">calling on Glenn Fine</a> to do an investigation of DOD’s use of NSLs.</p>
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		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/07/haynes-armed-services-perjury/#comment-62751</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:48:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Great link, Mary&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And of course we’ve recently seen that DOD was improperly partnering with FBI to use NSLs on its own people.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great link, Mary</p>
<p>And of course we’ve recently seen that DOD was improperly partnering with FBI to use NSLs on its own people.</p>
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