Dodd up. At least some of the senators give a damn about the rule of law, but they are woefully few in number.

Hello friends of FISA.. Good to know you all are here!

Hi folks…

Here comes Dodd…

“The Rule of Law”

bottom-line…

bmaz - you rock, thank you!

feingold just finished his floor speech. dodd up now.

dodd: this is not a partisan issue. this is about the rule of law and the constitution.

Dodd talking about the actual oath of office that they take. What a novel concept.

Go Dodd.

cboldt: Thanks for your response on the other thread. I hope you are wrong but know you are right.

Thanks bmaz. When things like this pop up on RSS feeders it reminds them that we’re here.

Dodd is pointing out that immunity is being sought to protect those who authorized the program from being exposed.

Kinda an odd place for Leahy to announce his support of Dodd’s filibuster, but here you go:

Tuesday, February 12 is a critical day in our fight to stand up for American values and preserve our freedoms while protecting our national security. The Senate is voting on amendments to FISA, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the law governing the use of wiretaps and other means to conduct surveillance of foreign threats.

Unfortunately, the new FISA bill we’ll be voting on still has many problems. I will do everything in my power — including joining my colleague Chris Dodd in a filibuster against this legislation — to fix it.

Is this because Dodd’s filibuster is supposedly been shortened to a four-hour event?

dodd: equal justice is at stake

Other than voting for it or taking up some of the 4 hours of talk, it’s hard to know what this means.

How do you get cspan on the computer? It is not on the TV here.

Dodd has hs green tie on again. He did all of his big campaign stuff in that tie. Wish it would bring him more luck here.

Thanks folks great to read your insights (not able to access right now). Glad to hear about Leahy

Bmaz would take what you refer to as your “pea brain” any day. Thanks for all you do!

Feingold rocked! He kicked Kit into the can. He was as fired up as Dodd is.

i suppose it means that they are going vote against cloture on the bill (not the amendments)

Cassie,
Go here and you can stream it either on a web page or on a separate media player of your choice.

I hope this helps—–

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs.....8;Code=CS2

I’ve asked Leahy’s office to filibuster this bill if it contains retroactive immunity. He states that he’s against it, but until now, he has been unwilling to support Dodd’s filibuster. I also asked if he’s getting any feedback in support of retroactive immunity, and the answer has been no. So has something fundamentally changed here, or is this a case of bluff and bluster, but no bite?

Not sure whether it is on C-span 1,2, or 3. This computer does not have sound

Here is a link
http://www.c-span.org/watch/

Here is Glenn’s response to my glee over Leahy’s announcement of joining the filibuster:

I have some more clarity on this now. Under the UC Agreement, 60 votes will be needed to invoke cloture and 60 votes will be needed for final passage of the bill.

Thus, there won’t be a real filibuster on the floor to stop the bill (as Dodd promised to lead). Instead, when Leahy says that he’ll support Dodd’s filibuster, what he means is that he’ll vote against cloture. As Pow Wow correctly points out, to defeat the bill, it will only take a total of 41 Senators doing the same — but they’re not going to get that. My guess is they’ll get somewhere in the low 30s.

thanks y’all!

I can’t wait for the time Feingold runs for Prez. What a person of the law!

Hallefuckinglujah! Glad to hear this is so!

He is awesome! I hope you heard him before Dodd. I so want to move to Wisconsin!

Dodd quoting from “A Man for All Seasons” again. Love it.

William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned ’round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!

Do you know which Senators we need to call?

Dodd is a man for all seasons…!

Jim do you know which Senators we should call?

Gotta sign off… will be listening to this heartbreak on the teevee…

Aside from the religious aspect…

Bless you Dodd and Feingold….wish you both the best….

Victory in spite of these insurmountable odds….

Leen,

Here is pow wow’s list posted earlier today on Glenn’s site. They are the ones he viewed as most in need of convincing.

Bayh (202) 224-5623 phone, (202) 228-1377 fax

Carper (202) 224-2441 phone, (202) 228-2190 fax

Feinstein (202) 224-3841 phone, (202) 228-3954 fax

Inouye (202) 224-3934 phone, (202) 224-6747 fax

Johnson (202) 224-5842 phone, (605) 341-2207 fax

Landrieu (202)224-5824 phone, (202) 224-9735 fax

Lincoln (202) 224-4843 phone, (202) 228-1371 fax

Mikulski (202) 224-4654 phone, (202) 224-8858 fax

Nelson (FL) (202) 224-5274 phone, (202) 228-2183 fax

Nelson (NE) (202) 224-6551 phone, (202) 228-0012 fax

Pryor (202) 224-2353 phone, (202) 228-0908 fax

Rockefeller, (202) 224-6472 phone, (202) 224-7665 fax

Salazar (202) 224-5852 phone, (202) 228-5036 fax

Aloha, Cassie! How’s life as an Army Brat?

Is this because Dodd’s filibuster is supposedly been shortened to a four-hour event?

Dodd’s four hours post-cloture is a deviation from the usual post-cloture rule, which limits a single senator to a single hour of debate.

His debate just concluded was on clock time that was allocated to an amendment.

I’m sure there will be some passionate speeches on the subject, but the outcome of the vote doesn’t hang in the balance.

I do suppose some individual Senators might be persuaded to shift, but as a group, they’ll insure this passes. Their first allegiance is selfish, the second is to the Senate as a club. Whatever cash and bones they reallocate among the people is designed to get reelected.

One more thing. Here’s a little something to help keep track of the calls you make.

Dang, I could’ve used that before I hung up with Inouye’s office…

LOL!

carl levin up to speak on specter-whitehouse amendment

Senate Majority Whip is Dick Durbin. Time for some party unity.

Bob in HI

legality should be determined by a court, not some member of the executive branch. Allowing the executive branch to determine legality effectively kills the judicial branch.

Have you called Inouye, Bob? I asked him to join Akaka on the vote…

Thanks

cooperation when being paid amounts to bribery or selling of services. It’s not cooperation, it’s a contract. I want to know what amount the telecoms were paid to spy on Americans. This must be in writing.

And I used to think that Durbin was one of the good ones.

Why is Levin supporting this?

Could someone explain how there can be a filibuster if there’s a UC controlling debate? (Not sarcastic … I really don’t know.)

And I used to think that Durbin was one of the good ones.

it’s hard to be a sweet cucumber in a pickle barrel.

* source

Ain’t really a filibuster; it’s a speech.

once must first redefine the meaning of filbuster.

If it’s just a speech and is limited in time, how can it prevent this from being voted on, as scheduled, and sent to the House?

Or am I misunderstanding what Leahy is saying he will do?

I mean, is it really going to make one bit of a difference is one of the rational Democrats says he’s against this?

i guess it depend on the time allotted. 4 hours? no. 4 months? sure.

i think we’re in 4 hour territory…. but that doesn’t preclude a surprise, but i think what’s going on is that there is the pretense of a filibuster, but not the actual thing.

What doesn’t preclude a surprise? The way I understand the UC from last week, there can’t be a surprise. There will be X amount of debate before cloture. Then Dodd gets to rant to an empty room for up to 4 hours, then they vote. It goes to the House by Wed morning.

I’m not giving up on one of the amendments making majority-of-those-present (although I’d like to know that Clinton and Obama will be there), but I don’t see any way of this being done in the Senate in 48 hours, max.

Ooops. I don’t see any way of this NOT being done in 48 hours.

all the amendments, sure… but once cloture has been filed (has it been yet?), there is a two day wait, then a vote on the cloture motion then up to 30hrs of debate before voting.

so, yeah, i can see how it could be more than 48hours - but on your larger point (that the time is limited)… i agree. but unlike epu, i’m not omniscient… so there’s always the possibility i will be surprised.

I thought cloture was already filed by Reid when he announced (back on Fri) who was getting how many minutes today and tomorrow. I thoink that it all wraps up late tomorrow or Wed at the latest. That’s why I’m confused by any talk of a real filibuster.

You know, it’s a tad amusing listening to senators talk about FISC rulings and OLC opinions needing to be public when 99% of the action in the Senate is secret.

I have been going nuts trying to find some good fisa coverage. All other sites seem nomination obsessed. I am so afraid of stuff slipping through while every one is focusing on campaigns.

I will make my calls. Thanks for the posts on this. Continue.

i don’t think i’ve seen any cloture motion. did i miss it, or forget it?

…. is that funeral music playing on c-span2 now?

appropriate, isn’t it?

Yep, a funeral for our rights.

Does someone at CSPAN have a warped sense of humor?

Yes! Ha. That made me laugh too, selise. I think that’s Handel’s Sarabande.

Seriously, it is a very beautiful requiem, very heavy, very powerful … so why are they playing it for the Senate?

mcJoan has a new post on the great orange satan on FISA here.

The nub:

The procedure for tomorrow is that votes on the outstanding amendments will begin at 10:00. After these votes happen, they’ll have the cloture vote. When Leahy and Dodd say they will filibuster, it means that they will vote against the cloture vote on the bill to continue debate. If they are successful in preventing 60 votes for cloture, the debate can continue for as long as 30 hours. If they fail to prevent cloture, Dodd has four hours reserved for him and his colleagues like Leahy to convince enough fellow Dems to vote against final passage.

and now Viennese waltzes. Just to show that life goes on and is all sugar candy. Bread and circuses.

OT - great Horton piece at his Harper’s blog

http://harpers.org/archive/2008/02/hbc-90002346

Seems the Bush-Mukasey DOJ has just arrested a Democratic lawyer in Miami (who advised Al Gore in the 2000 recount) for conspiracy for giving a legal opinion that wasn’t correct.

Anyone hearing a ding ding ding?

What exactly is Kuehne’s involvement in this “conspiracy”? He was asked by another lawyer to give an opinion: did he think the retainer that was offered by a client could be accepted? He looked at the money and its provenance and gave a positive opinion
…
In sum, the prosecutors are saying that by rendering a legal opinion, Kuehne made himself into a part of a conspiracy. So whether his opinion was right or wrong, he was just another cog in a criminal enterprise. They’re arguing that he cannot claim an innocent mistake as to the law as a defense.
…
So if we apply the reasoning the Justice Department advances in the Kuehne case, Yoo and Bradbury are engaged in a criminal conspiracy to subvert the law and may be chargeable in connection with the underlying crimes. And indeed, while Michael Mukasey certainly won’t charge these cases, the Attorney General he cited to the Judiciary Committee as his personal model, Robert H. Jackson, absolutely would. In fact, we can cut from the speculative: he did. The case is called United States v. Altstoetter and the defendants in that case include two officials of the Justice Department who gave erroneous advice under international humanitarian law which led to more than a thousand persons being tortured or shot. The sentence? Ten years, less time served. And in fact the lawyers got off lightly–they were released after seven years for good behavior.

Actually a Chopin piano sonata in B flat. Heard it on the radio a couple of days ago while driving with my wife and wondered if it was an omen. Now I know the target of the omen.

Thanks, RevDeb!

but once cloture has been filed (has it been yet?), there is a two day wait, then a vote on the cloture motion then up to 30hrs of debate before voting.

Reid filed the cloture motion on Friday, a few moments after 1:00 p.m.

Under Rule XXII, the cloture vote would happen Tuesday morning, but it’s been put off to accommodate whatever time is necessary to vote on whichever amendments get roll call votes.

The old UC agreement limited the time for debate on amendments, but not on final passage. The cloture motion, if it passes will limit the time for debate on final passage. The post-cloture time for debate is, under the rules, 30 hours (extensible if 60 Senators vote to extend it); but UC can change darn near any rule.

On this bill, a UC agreement provides for under 30 hours of post-cloture debate.

- on Friday, February 8, and Monday, February 11, 2008, all remaining amendments be debated and all time used.
- on Tuesday, February 12, 2008, at a time to be determined, the Senate proceed to vote in relation to the amendments in an order specified later, with two minutes of debate prior to each vote …
- upon disposition of all amendments, the Senate vote on the motion to invoke cloture on S. 2248 [cloture motion filed Friday at 1:00 p.m.]
- if cloture is invoked on the bill [I think it will be, easily],
–the Senator from Connecticut (Mr. Dodd) be recognized to speak for up to 4 hours [this is a courtesy time extension, Rule XXII limits an individual senator to one hour of post-cloture debate]
— the Senator from Wisconsin (Mr. Feingold) for up to 15 minutes; provided further,
— recognition of the Managers [Rockefeller and Bond] for up to 10 minutes each,
— the Senator from Vermont (Mr. Leahy) and the Senator from Pennsylvania (Mr. Specter) for 20 minutes each,
— the Senate then proceed to vote on passage of the bill, as amended, if amended

The picture takes a radical change, if cloture is NOT invoked on final passage.

Cloture takes 60 AYE votes. The GOP has at least 47 (McCain out beating the bushes for votes — or resting, Specter may vote out of his normal character), so the DEMs only need to sacrifice 13 of theirs.

DEMs against SJC bill
Bayh, Carper, Inouye, Johnson, Landrieu, McCaskill, Mikulski, Nelson (NE), Nelson (FL), Pryor, Rockefeller, Salazar

DEMs in favor of limiting debate on SSCI bill (strong pro-immunity)
Landrieu, Lincoln, Nelson (NE), Pryor

At the other end, add Leahy to this list:
DEMs against proceeding to S.2248 (strong anti-immunity)
Boxer, Brown, Cantwell, Cardin, Dodd, Feingold, Harkin, Kerry, Menendez, Wyden

Not a promising list.

We may have Chopin now, but we had Handel before, Jim. Trust me.

This is bizarre…

The court has ruled that would be a violation of the fair trial rights of defendants. In Wilkes’ case, Geragos argued that the factors cited by probation officials as reason to increase the sentence were not found to be true by a jury.

For example, he said there was no jury finding that Cunningham was an elected official. While that seems an obvious fact, Geragos said that without a specific jury finding, it legally can’t be used to increase the sentence. The jury also did not explicitly find there was more then one bribe.

Other parts of the filing largely repeat Wilkes’ contention at trial, that he bribed no one and was doing nothing unusual for Washington lobbyists. In the papers, Geragos again flatly denied Wilkes bribed anyone and said that the myriad lavish meals, fancy trips and nice gifts “were typical of lobbyists treating members and not out of the norm.”

http://www.signonsandiego.com/.....ilkes.html

f they are successful in preventing 60 votes for cloture, the debate can continue for as long as 30 hours. If they fail to prevent cloture, Dodd has four hours reserved for him and his colleagues like Leahy to convince enough fellow Dems to vote against final passage.

That’s ass backwards, or at least conflates things.

If there aren’t 60 votes for cloture, debate is UNLIMITED.

If there ARE 60 votes for cloture, the rules provide for 30 hours of debate, but the senate entered a UC agreement to cut waive the 30 hours provided by rule down to about 6.

I’m just the messenger. Someone set mcJoan straight. It’s on her front page post.

I would be amazed if Bernie Sanders did not vote no on cloture.

I think he already said he was against the intel. bill.

Heh heh; I am sure the irony will be lost on Mukas Minbrain. And duplicity has never been a particular concern for them either. With the right judge though, this is gonna bite them in the butt; they may try to distinguish it, but it is close enough for rock and roll.

Sander’s staff told me (last time we all hit the phones) that he is strongly opposed to retroactive immunity.

I would be amazed if Bernie Sanders did not vote no on cloture.

Me too. I didn’t keep track during debate, of which senators came out strongly. Some, like Nelson (FL) have clearly telegraphed they will vote AYE on cloture (Ah’m against immunity, but we need a bill, even if it has immunity).

The number of Senators who have spoken up during the debate is pretty small. The same faces keep popping up and making the same arguments, over and over and over. So, for most senators, all one can do is speculate.

I’ll be surprised if Obama or Clinton votes at all.

If McCain is in the house, then the vote will be close, and he’s giving cover to some DEM.

“Have you called Inouye, Bob? I asked him to join Akaka on the vote.”

I’ve been sending him regular emails. I’ve done this because I not only want him to oppose immunity, but also basket warrants, eviscerating the FISC, etc., and I’m afraid that if I call up, the whole call will just be logged as one tick mark “against”, without any of the detail.

Bob in HI

Hey, lookee here: Blackberry (Karl is that you??) service out for all carriers throughout the entire North American region. Any bets on whether all old records from January of 2000 forward are lost in the process?

73 - here’s hoping for a bitten butt.

As to Clinton and Obama, there’s an outside chance they’ll show up. After all, the primaries tomorrow are all nearby. (Was that planned?)

Bush lies, more people die, and still we aren’t winning. From the WaPo:

President Bush famously doesn’t like long memos. So if retired Marine Gen. James L. Jones hoped to get Bush’s attention with the report he produced on Afghanistan, he was clever enough to be blunt from the start. “Make no mistake,” the report says in its first line. “NATO is not winning in Afghanistan.”

cbolt (if you’re still around) -

There was a moment today when DiFi called for the yeas and nays on her own amendment (that requires 60 votes) and no one objected, so it looked like the Chair was about to have the actual vote.

Did I misread what was happening? If I didn’t, did DiFi majorly screw up, given that the chamber was just about empty since no voting was supposed to happen today?

There was a moment today when DiFi called for the yeas and nays on her own amendment (that requires 60 votes) and no one objected, so it looked like the Chair was about to have the actual vote.

No screw-up. She was asking for a roll call vote on her amendment - AFIAK, that request hadn’t been made before. Getting the clerk to set the stage for a roll call vote is different from starting the vote.

I’m sure DiFi wasn’t intending the vote to start today, and that she’s well aware tomorrow is stacked vote day. He “asking for yeas and nays” really was routine. Should have been followed by “is there a sufficient second?” (2/5th of Senators present).

My first thought: they have an ulterior motive and are setting up a poison pill for the Democrats.

The Bush/Mukasey DoJ hope this will cause Democrats to rail against the criminalization of legal counsel and by extension protect there own YOOs and BRADBURYs.

My question, how many butt bites does it take to get to the center of the tootsie pop?

HUH?????????

Isn’t this exactly what they are doing themselves?

How do you legal types see all this ending? I just can’t believe this crew is going to do all this and then willingly ride off into the sunset next January. WHy would you go to these lengths to do all this and then turn it over to Hillary or Obama?

‘their’ own

As to Clinton and Obama, there’s an outside chance they’ll show up.

I wouldn’t expect either one to vote AYE on cloture. I just figured Hillary! at least would prefer to avoid creating a vote record in the NAY column.

If cloture is rejected tomorrow, it will be a significant (newsmaking) event.

For all you Clemens heads out there, I may have made a faulty assumption as to Hardin having a bead on Andy Petitte. First chink I have seen in Rusty’s armor to date; this would not be fatal, but very bad for Rusty. I can think of alternative reasons that Petitte may not be in the chair on Wednesday, that have a diametrically opposite implication, but if this story is correct, ole Rusty has got a problem.

With the Potomac primaries tomorrow, shouldn’t Obama and Clinton be in town for the FISA votes?

Thanks for the clarification of DiFi.

As to Clinton and Obama, I was more thinking that they might show up to vote on the amendments. I still have this little dream that, maybe, one of the majority-presents will pass. I’m kind of silly that way. But my wife thinks I’m cute.

Bmaz,
You are down one john. Shadegg is history. Congratulations.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talk.....o_reti.php

Has anyone written to CSPAN-2 to ask them to update their screen crawl to include exactly how SSCI FISA changes will immunize the current occupants in the Whitehouse?

If Dodd has to filibuster for 4+ hours in an empty Senate chamber sometime this week, are we the Public allowed to join him?

WTF just happened?

Harry just said he expects 8 votes tomorrow. They will start right away with no morning business.
He said he hopes they don’t need another extension of PAA. Interesting to me that he would even mention that.

Was it important that Reid just said that he hopes the Senate will finish quickly and that the “House will return something quickly” as well? Is he just being polite or does he really believe that the House won’t pass the Senate version?

Reid seems dead tired. Or defeated.

All 8 need a 60 vote threshold???

Did Harry say that Specter and Dodd are the only two left to speak today?

I don’t think so. He said 60 on the ones that need it. It sounded to me that the cloture vote comes after the amendments are voted on. Did you hear that?

That’s what I think I heard, but I was distracted by a feline…

He said he hopes they don’t need another extension of PAA. Interesting to me that he would even mention that.

It’s a giveaway that push come to shove, he’d vote to pass a bill the the GOP wouldn’t block, i.e., he’d vote to pass a bill with immunity.

Is he just being polite or does he really believe that the House won’t pass the Senate version?

Either he’s genuinely uncertain himself, as to how the House will handle the bill, or he’s a very good actor. Pieces are in place to have another extension.

I wonder whether Michael Bloomberg has a position on telecom immunity.

I was distracted by a feline…

Ummmm, you ARE a feline, no? =;-O

Cool! Best news I have had in a while. He was facing a very solid challenger in 2008, a well funded guy by the name of Bob Lord. Don’t know if he feared losing or if there is some darker explanation (possible, there have been rumors of something other than the recent money flap, but I have never heard of anything of any substance on him).

707! Good one!!

Hey folks. Just checking in. Nothing too exciting to tell today. But thanks to bmaz for keeping watch on the threads. Am out to dinner than will check in and load up some posts.

OT - Mukasey is being interviewed on Newshour with Jim Lehrer tonight. Its currently being aired in Atlanta.

there is a very bright shiney object

…. and i had to leave, just back now. will go through the comments to see if i missed anything that you-all think needs a youtube clip.

Specter gets me every time. He sound so damn reasonable. I keep thinking he’s coming over from the dark side. Hoping that his working relationship with Leahy will stir his conscience.

heya Bmaz - nice thread, although the news isn’t very good.

It’s February 2008. We’ve had a majority now for more than a year, and we’ve done… what? Anything? man - this stuff is depressing.

On a more positive note, last week the Surfrider Foundation and a bunch of other Environmental groups managed to convince the California Coastal Commission to reject a new toll road designed to ferry rich people reduce Orange County/San Diego County traffic by building the connector right through the middle of San Onofre Beach State Park and likely ruining a world-famous surf spot (Trestles) in the process.

They held the hearing last wednesday and 3,000 people showed up for it - 200 people in support (including 100 union workers who were paid to be there), and the rest against the Toll Road. The hearing lasted until 11pm when they held the vote, which was 8-2 against. Quite an accomplishment for something that appeared to be a done deal. Surfers led the charge!

Link here: http://www.surfrider.org/savetrestles/

We have a very vocal Surfrider org here in the Isles too…

Roughing out the clock/calendar - it’ll be tough to get 8 votes done between 10:00 and 12:30 tomorrow. It’s possible, but very tight.

The cloture vote would happen after the weekly policy luncheon recess. Say starting at 2:30 if no amendment vote is carried over, 20 minutes later for each vote carried over from the morning. Rough time for passing cloture is 3 pm. There are about 6 hours of debate after that, then a vote on final passage.

Point being that the House won’t have the bill in time to do anything with it on Tuesday, and the Senate vote on final passage may be pushed into Wednesday.

Reid’s hangdog look may be simple anticipation of being reamed for failure to get the bill to the House in time to avert another extension.