Thanks to Faiz, who watches Rush, so I don't have to.
Once again, the Administration has trotted out Dick to lobby for immunity for himself telecom immunity. All the things I said last week about the inappropriateness of sending the guy who would most directly benefit from immunity out to lobby for it still hold.
So someone decided that they would get the person least willing to cooperate with Democrats, the person who single-handedly could eliminate the legal problem they allege the telecoms have, and the person who stands to benefit most from an immunity provision for telecoms, to head out to pressure Congress? And they thought this would work to persuade Democrats to put aside all the troubling legal issues to grant immunity?
But I'm interested in slight changes to Dick's spiel over the last eight days of legislative wrangling. As an aside, you'd think that some of these differences might stem from the fact that your average Heritage Foundation member has about four times the IQ of your average Rush listener, but Dick's statements to Rush are much more measured.
One thing I hadn't noticed in Dick's Heritage Foundation speech is that it already included (and was perhaps the roll-out of) the Orwellian "liability protection" in lieu of the more accurate "retroactive immunity."
Actions by Congress sometimes have unexpected consequences. But a failure to enact a permanent FISA update with liability protections would have predictable and serious consequences.
It must have polled well, because Dick is developing into an elaborate metaphor including a dig at trial lawyers.
One of the main things we need in there, for example, is retroactive liability protection for the companies that have worked with us and helped us prevent further attacks against the United States —
[snip]
RUSH: The opposition in the Senate is primarily from Democrats, correct?
CHENEY: Correct. People who don’t want to — I guess want to leave open the possibility that the trial lawyers can go after a big company that may have helped. [my emphasis]
I wonder how the ACLU and EFF feel about being labeled trial lawyers?
Now perhaps it's because Rush asked the question--whether the opposition was "primarily from Democrats"--but Dick's pitch this time around has none of the appeal to bipartisanship that his Heritage Foundation speech did.
This cause is bigger than the quarrels of party and the agendas of politicians. And if we in Washington, all of us, can only see our way clear to work together, then the outcome should not be in doubt.
That kind of makes me happy--because it suggests that BushCo recognizes that they're going to have to do more than rely on Jello Jay to roll over for them to get immunity passed.
As Faiz notes, Dick even offers a ridiculous claim that no one's civil liberties were violated.
We haven’t violated anybody’s civil liberties.
As with Dick's adoption of a much more partisan stance, I'm pretty happy to see Dick explicitly denying that they violated civil liberties. That suggests BushCo believes that some of Rush's listeners do believe this is about civil liberties. One of the things Russ Feingold noted the other day is that even his more conservative Wisconsin constituents see this clear as a matter of civil liberties (which was the point of Feingold's comments on the YouTube clip). It seems that the appeal to civil liberties is beginning to make some progress.
I also find it instructive that in the Heritage Foundation speech, Dick described precisely how the telecoms assisted the government.
Because they are believed to have aided the U.S. government in the effort to intercept international communications of al Qaeda-related individuals.
With Rush, Dick for the most part avoids mentioning what the telecoms did, instead simply saying they "helped."
... the companies that have worked with us and helped us prevent further attacks against the United States —
[snip]
a big company that may have helped. Those companies helped specifically at our request, and they’ve done yeoman duty for the country, [my emphasis]
Aren't those big telecoms such nice little helpers?!?!?! (Insert remark about hillbilly heroin here.)
In short, Dick seems to have replaced the fear-mongering he did at the Heritage Foundation for a partisan appeal. And he has very very carefully tried to hide anything that might scare a civil libertarian.
All the more reason we ought to be hammering a civil libertarian line for the next two weeks.
One more thing. I don't know if this is a slip or not, but look at the way Dick describes the program to Rush (and this is as detailed as he gets):
It’s just absolutely essential to know who in the United States is talking to Al-Qaeda.
Of course, that's not what the Administration has claimed the program is for--identifying those in the US who might talk to Al Qaeda. Remember, it's supposed to be for figuring out what terrorists say among themselves. Dick's description of the purpose of the program seems to violate the standards for minimization that require non-relevant conversations with US persons to be ignored and destroyed. But since we know they're wiretapping Pulitzer Prize winning journalists (in addition to Lawrence Wright, Christiane Amanpour has reportedly been tapped), and allegedly tapping lawyers representing Gitmo detainees, I guess this shouldn't surprise us.
As I said, Dick seems to be trying hard not to scare the civil libertarians. All the more reason to point out that Dick has admitted that BushCo has forgone traditional standards of minimization and simply helped themselves to the conversations of anyone they think is talking to Al Qaeda.
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Like OJ Simpson, he wants to and will brag about what he has gotten away
with, he has worked to this end his entire political career and he is
damn proud of it… get him in his cups and he’ll show you the torture
tapes as a bonus.
Coming from Dick I would take that as a threat.
The only reason he would bother to go out and lobby this is because he is worried that the country will one day discover to what extent he personally obtained information by spying that he used for things like outing Plame or something like that.
Froomkin today has some on Cheney and Rushboo
“It’s just absolutely essential to know who in the United States is talking to Al-Qaeda.”
OK. But it is equally important to know who our elected officials make deals with and consort with. In other words, Dick, I would like to know what you do to justify the paycheck we, the voters, give you. You want that kind of openness? I want a quid pro quo…
Well, I think it is pretty clear that if we don’t do exactly what Dick says, the terrorists are going to win and we are all going to die.
You know you could make fun of this in so many different ways. We didn’t do it, i.e. our minions did. It wasn’t so much violating as crushing. You can’t violate what you don’t have. Etc. But the really scary part is that in Cheney world he may actually believe this.
Deliberate Misspelling coming:
EW, you have surpassed yourself. This is a really, really great lesson on framing. You caught Darth shifting frames in midstream, right out in the open.
“helped”
“helped voluntarily”
“patriotic duty to help”
“they won’t help if they have to follow the statute”
Alright already. Just put the amendment to a vote.
The term “liability protection” appears in the January 17 Congressional Record, at Page H341
That’s Dodd, last week. But notice the term reaching back to September. I’ll look at the April demand from DOJ. I won’t be surprised to see it there too.
Any Senator - Democrat or Republican - who thinks that the Administration is dealing in good faith on anything related to civil liberties or the Constitutional separation of powers - has their blinders on.
At some point, Democrats and Republicans in the House and Senate will have to realize that the Administration does not believe that their institutions have any power to legislate, conduct oversight, etc. and that they are in the middle of a Constitutional crisis of their own making.
They need to realize that they have to come together - Democrats and Republicans alike - to reassert their Constitutional role or they will become as irrevelant as the Administration thinks they are.
I think Schumer, Feinstein and even Specter are now beginning to realize that it was a mistake to assume any kind of “good faith” existed in the nomination of Michael Mukasey. Their own good faith was taken advantage of and they were played for chumps.
Hopefully, the rest of the Democratic Senate and their Republican counterparts will also realize that there is no such thing as good faith when dealing with this administration and that they will use that knowledge appropriately when deciding what to do about telecom immunity.
I’m hoping that my own Senator McCaskill is now outraged enough after the president issued a signing statement nullifying her attempt to establish a commission to investigate waste, fraud and abuse in the War on Iraq. Outraged enough to come out with a clear “NO!” on telecom immunity and basket warrants and anything else this Administration wants.
How many millions in bribes to elected officials, and hundreds of other cogs will be affected if they can’t get immunity? How will these politicians explain to their campaign contributors that they couldn’t wipe out the influence of the senators still willing to maintain the provisions of the constitution and not violate their oath of office? How will they find enough lawyers to defend themselves against the mythical charges from everyone in America that is going to sue them? I know I have emailed outside the US. I guess I have been tapped? Has it affected me and am I going to sue? I don’t think so.
But I would take issue with their breaking the law and giving that data to people that are using it for purposes not specified. So let’s all laugh at Arlen’s ridiculous notion to place the blame with “gubment, by substitution” (prostitution has a much better reputation) There is no more chance of Arlen’s sincerity than dick.
why can’t we get religion involved so it is a three ring circus?
Daniel Schorr comments on NPR (Neocon Public Radio) that Bush will give Telcos a presidential pardon if the Democrats succeed in thwarting immunity (h/t ThinkProgress).
Highly irregular, but apparently constitutional. The good news, if it comes to that, is that a pardon insulates a wrongdoer only from criminal liability. The beneficiary remains liable at civil law - eg breach of contract or statutory duty - which would not shut down the private suits.
If those suits survive into the next administration, their continued viability would rest, among other things, on the next president not asserting state secrets, etc., to preclude essential evidence. Inevitably, any judgments against the Telcos would probably end up before the Supreme Court. Disappointingly for the rule of law, I wouldn’t trust the majority on this Court to find any neocon conduct wrongful.
Source: http://www.fas.org/irp/news/20.....oposal.pdf
That dates to mid-April 2007. Earliest reference I found to the specific source is April 11. The DOJ Press release is April 13.
Seems to me that if the telecoms need “liability protection,” they should hire lawyers to look out for liability ahead of time.
No professionals I know of have “retroactive liability.” There is no such thing as any malpractice insurer who gives coverage once you’ve already done something to get you in a jam.
Why is the govt planning to provide malpractice coverage for corporations? Why after the fact?
Call it “malpractice” - which is what it is! They malpracticed and harmed the public. Now they want the public to pay so they get off scott free!
It also makes it much easier to avoid prosecution if you can listen in on the prosecution / investigators. Deadeye Dick and Rove are not nearly as smart as commonly thought. They just have intelligence access to both sides of everything.
Edited for clarity. Schumer, Feinstein, and Specter have cast so many bad votes. The idea that they learn from their mistakes is belied by experience –and their voting records.
Daniel Schorr comments on NPR (Neocon Public Radio) that Bush will give Telcos a presidential pardon if the Democrats succeed in thwarting immunity (h/t ThinkProgress).
A much better solution. He put them in the spot, let him take the heat for getting them out.
The “pardon” is at best indirect, however, because he can’t “pardon away” a civil remedy that exists in statute. The indirect route (and I think it fails) is to pardon the criminal offense that is a predicate requirement for obtaining the civil remedy.
OT… for comic relief?
Manny heads West…
Ensures a V for the Pats?
http://www.boston.com/sports/b.....super.html
It is also important to remember that a pardon is not an exoneration. It is an admission of guilt by the party that accepts it. A pardon removes punishment, not guilt.
At the same time, if Bush is saying he can and will fix it himself, it completely removes the urgency for obtaining a legislated solution.
This is a powerful argument to the Congress. It protects their “Rule of Law,” they don’t have to reverse themselves, they don’t have to co-opt the role of the judiciary, etc. And it also “takes care” of the telecoms. It puts the onus and spotlight on the executive.
However a pardon is worthless if Bush gives it to hide his own part in a criminal activity.
Hey now! I’ve about had it with all you guys bashing us nice cuddly trial lawyers! For all the bad rap, we are one of the few remaining firewalls between the Cheney like authoritarian governmental and big business foxes and the collective henhouses. So knock it off! Tee Hee, Heh heh. Okay, seriously now, couple of thoughts:
Well, no shit; the consequences were both predicable and serious. The legal departments for the telcos have been dealing with wiretapping and surveillance issues, both for law enforcement and the intelligence community since the advent of the freaking telephone. They are very good and very experienced. This I personally guarantee you from experience. They covered themselves and have indemnification/subrogation agreements with the government for any liability they may ultimately incur; and anybody who doesn’t believe this simply doesn’t know how they operate. In the first place as LHP and I have both explained several different times, between the FISA language and the standard statutory wiretapping/surveillance provisions, they already have far more protection and insulation that is being let on. But, on top of that, there is absolutely no chance they don’t have some form of the additional agreements I have described. They shut the freaking taps off if Dick doesn’t pay his bill; you think they just patriotically blundered into an arrangement that could incur billions in liabilities? Don’t be silly; this was “predictable and serious” and they acted accordingly.
And, as EW picked up, “may have helped” and “believed to have aided”? WTF? We are supposed to whitewash all this and you can’t even say for sure they did anything at all, much less anything of value? This is patently and ridiculously absurd. By the way Dickhead Cheney, if you are so concerned about saving lives, why have you wasted so many in Iraq?? Refusing to let California clean up it’s air will kill more Americans than the terrists will. Screw Cheney, and the ignorant Chimp he rode in on.
…Daniel Schorr comments on NPR (Neocon Panic Radio) that Bush…
There. Fixed it.
Hey randiego! Quit shipping your seven year flood rainstorms over here will you? My roof has sprung a leak and I can’t take any more.
I am off in a few minutes to serve as the intrepid EW reporter on the ground at ESPN media row in Scottsdale. Your very own EW Senior SuperBowl Trash Talk Analyst! I will be reporting live and inebriated later tonight…..
However a pardon is worthless if Bush gives it to hide his own part in a criminal activity.
Yeah. I was thinking more in institutional terms. President Bush is trying to get Congress to absorb the political heat that results from forgiving past law breaking. Congress should protect ITS institutional values, and the Rule of Law, by leaving the power to provide discretionary forgiveness where the Constitution put it, with the president.
“Malpractice” is doing poorly something one holds oneself out as routinely performing to a high standard. It’s negligence: I had a duty to perform to standard “A”, and barely gave you an ungentlemanly “C-”. Somebody relied on me and was hurt when I screwed up. Shit happens. Insurers underwrite its consequences for a fee so that the loss doesn’t fall on the innocent victim. Even the cost for the errant professional is predictable and spread out via the routine expense of paying an insurance premium.
Several of these Telcos intentionally broke the law and are still doing it. That’s a big step up the chain of wrongdoing, from, “Honey, sorry I didn’t pay the bills on time and ruined our credit,” to running her over in the car for the life insurance.
The Telcos did it for mixed reasons. For some, it was winning big time government contracts. For several, it was quick and easy approval for mega-mergers that generated billions in revenue and hundreds of millions in fees and bonuses. For others, it was to avoid political prosecutions by Cheney’s DOJ.
That’s a classic Faustian bargain. They knowingly harmed society in general, and their customers and others in particular. For private gain. The suspicion of that merits thorough investigation; if proven, it merits lengthy criminal punishment. But Cheney’s mantra is he takes care of his own. See, Libby, Louis Irving and Wolfowitz, Paul. So his job is to make sure the Shrubster coughs up immunity. Governing in the public interest? Never heard of it. Neither, apparently, has this Senate.
I don’t know about you folks, but the last couple of days’ silence on FISA in the Senate is giving me a sinking feeling. Silence equals secrecy and every time our Democratic leaders start negotiating behind closed doors, they end up giving away the farm…
In #29, it should have been “Irving Lewis” Libby. I hate diminutives like Scooter, they make the perp seem cute and not responsible. But I admit I can’t stop doing it with the Shrubster. It’s just too painful otherwise.
The Telcos did it for mixed reasons.
Not that I’d necessarily call it “patriotic cooperation” if it happens in secret for 5 years running, but they’re also operating under orders that are classified, signed by the president and AG, etc. This isn’t saying “no” to the local FBI field office.
Something that hasn’t much come out, but probably should, is that the telcoms have also demonstrated that they aren’t trustworthy when it comes to protecting privacy, in general and for the long term. They’d break the law for any president.
Hah, Can’t wait Bmaz! I’ll make it a point to be around then!
I don’t know about you folks, but the last couple of days’ silence on FISA in the Senate is giving me a sinking feeling.
There are precious few clues. The best clues are Reid’s “votes on Monday and Tuesday,” with both FISA and economic stimulus being on the table. Other than that, and whatever leaked to TPM, I’ve seen nothing.
I think we need to spell it out.
This provision will provide unlimited immunity for telecoms who cooperated with the government in spying on US citizens on US soil without a warrant.
Here’s what I think they need to do to call Cheney’s bluster into bluff. Propose and amendment that would provide immunity to teleocms for any liability related to calls placed by or received by al-Qaeda terrorists and a list of those specific al-Qaeda targets can be provided to the FISA court, sworn under oath, and the FISA court can conduct a review to determine whether there is reason to strike any names from that list as not being legitimate al-Qaeda terrorists, then the telecoms can have immunity from and against claims for liability by any of the remaining al-Qaeda terrorists on the list.
See Dick - we can take care of your concern.
EW - I heard that Cheney interview on Rush and Cheney had the weirdest cough — like his lungs were filled with fluid or something. It’s like Cheney adopted the Vader breathing to match the Vader dark side.
Dick’s demands for immunity don’t evolve. They are there because intelligent design made it so.
I dunno. Whoever designed these asswipes ain’t that intelligent….
Are saying you think there is flaw in the system? *g*
As if Cheney didn’t already treat us like DFH’s, instead of getting a copy of the president’s (the People’s?) budget online for free, it’ll now cost you two hundred smackeroonies.
No point in making it easier for Americans to see how Bush still spends our tax dollars as if they were more gifts from dad’s friends, to bail him out of one more bankruptcy.
(h/t ThinkProgress)
god, I never thought of it this way. Shrub is literally passing the buck to Congress, so he doesn’t face the embarrassment of giving the telcos amnesty.
This is SUCH an elegant solution Shrub has had no problem before doing as he pleased (as recently as a couple of days ago with his “signing statement”). Let HIM decide…
I didn’t hear the audio, so I don’t want to get too far ahead on this, but the sound you describe is eerily similar to symptoms of congestive heart failure (CHF). We knew Darth’s heart was ‘effed up, but isn’t CHF a killer? If not acutely, then chronically? Is there a nurse in the house? Doctor?
Actually malpractice, at least for us psychologists, could indeed involve doing something much worse than C level work. If a therapist has sex with a patient that is deliberate. And unethical. And in some states illegal. But definitely outside the bounds altogether. Fraudulent billing. Same thing. Or violation of confidentiality. Any number of other egregious acts. Some of which might be illegal.
I was mainly trying to find another frame, to give voters a sense of what is being done wrong.
If they want to use “liability,” then I would turn it around as “malpractice’ or something like that.
Fractal - I’m not wishing bad things on Cheney (other than say, prosecution) but it was a weird cough. Fourthbranch was just making a very odd interrupting sound on an intermittent basis — not hacking or anything — more like a wet swallowing, like Homer Simpson choking down some drool after going ‘Mmmm…donuts!’.
Maybe he caught that ass-kicking San Diego flu? I know — from sitting next to Nancy Pelosi, who brought it back with her to the SOTU!
And I was being pedantic while also trying to point out the flaws in Cheney’s propaganda.
“Malpractice” is usually not living up to the “standards of one’s profession”: misdiagnosing the cause of symptoms or pleading guilty because you missed the illegal search and wrongful interrogation. Even when objectively drawn, that leaves lots of room. But not, as you say, for illegal activity such as purposefully administering incorrect drugs or actively helping a client commit a felony that endangers lives and property. That has nothing to do with one’s profession; it’s just criminal behavior.
I think we agree that Cheney’s game is altogether in the latter category. His mistakes are not reasonable or in many cases mistakes. He is intentionally usurping the king’s authority, sacking the treasury, and putting plague rats in the city’s wells to inflame the citizens of Guilder and distract them from his crimes. He needs to be called out, but the mice of the Senate refuse to confront the cat, and its GOP members continue to put party above country. We need a few good terriers, and in the case of Cheney, a hungry mongoose.
An item the MSM misses entirely is that the partisan behavior is so one-sided. Glenn Greenwald commented on that this week. There’s no FISA amendment because the GOP blocked it. There’s no budget because the GOP refused to compromise. There’s no adequate SCHIP funding because a GOP president vetoed it. Ad nauseum. It has no vocabulary to deal with this, so it shoehorns its descriptions into yesterday’s dialogue.
The silence is uncomfortable, I agree. I would not be surprised to learn an alternate amendment is being drafted. And if it doesn’t come out right enough to pass, maybe more than one.
Dick has no shame, conscience or soul for that matter. He sure is trying hard to save his own hide.
There was one Pullitzer Prize winning journalist that do wish they had been wiretapping Judy Miller. (millions of lives would have been saved) Oh I forgot that would mean they would have been wiretapping themselves talking to Judy.
When will they call them out and follow through? How many crimes does this administration have to commit?
How about “enhanced” immunity
Lets see
First: Total Information Awareness via Telecomm, congress doesn’t like it, fuck em. Check.
Second: Find out everything you can about your enemy ( Congress ( Rs and Ds, Judges, and News Media ) Blackmail everybody and show ruthless efficiancy in destroying opposition.
Third: National Security Letters via 9-11 and Anthrax cool way to fill in the blanks in First.
Fourth: Repeat Second with more info.
Tada: Recipe for becoming a king is complete except for one minor flaw 2 term limit.
Fifth: Become McCains Veep, steal election and do it all over again.
“He’s been dying of the same heart attack for twenty years.”
There are more options than just that. Darth could Veep for either JMcC or Mittsy. Or “the convention” could “draft” him as Prez directly. (Remember how he became the Veep candidate in the first place?)
That makes sense. The telecoms would not leave their collective asses bare. The more I hear trial lawyers trash talk the more respect I have for them
ok, I totally agree that they are criminals. no question at all about that, in both our views.
I won’t belabor the point. And darn…. I wish we could haul these guys into jail and leave them there for life!
Thanks for taking time to enlighten me… very kind of you.
Durbin is going to hold up the DAG confirmation vote for Filip until Mukasey becomes a better pen pal - maybe.
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/005184.php
Apparently Mukasey’s rendition of Sister Golden Hair was off key.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rQ3ax8NWNGA
I’ve been one poor correspondent, and I’ve been too too hard to find, but it doesn’t mean, you ain’t been on my mind
I still think calling Bush’s bluff by granting immunity for exactly what he and Cheney have admitted is the program - only snooping on calls that involve al-Qaeda - is a great way to go.
Dems - sure, we’ll be happy to grant immunity for telecom assistance in surveilling any call that had al-Qaeda at one end of the call, even without a warrant.
Retroactive immunity, liability…malpractice how ever you want to spin these serious illegal activities these suckers are criminals! What’s it going to take for congress to make a stand?
Monica where are you?
“Actions by Congress sometimes have unexpected consequences. But a failure to enact a permanent FISA update with liability protections would have predictable and serious consequences.”
consequences
http://politicalhumor.about.co.....erfudd.htm
http://politicalhumor.about.co.....yknife.htm
Cheney thinking about consequences
http://politicalhumor.about.co.....drevil.htm
I’ve been wondering about this, too. Nothing from ACLU, PFAW or the other watchdogs, either. I’m gonna watch the Friday news dump.
Bob in HI
“He’s been dying of the same heart attack for twenty years.”
Any chance our VP is a zombie? Might explain a few things.
Bob in HI
Speaking of Orwellian, I keep seeing this phrase “alleged to have assisted the gov’t” in regard to the telecoms. I think that’s an established fact… the “problem” is the allegation that they broke the law in doing so. It seems to me that the “alleged to have assisted” gambit gives the game away on square one. All that’s left to decide is if Bushco gets another pass on attempting to change the rules in the middle of the game.
“Dems - sure, we’ll be happy to grant immunity for telecom assistance in surveilling any call that had al-Qaeda at one end of the call, even without a warrant.”
But the problem as I see it is “who is Al Qaeda”? I hear Joe McCarthy’s bones rattling, and out of his long-dead mouth come phrases like “Al Qaeda sympathizer” and “suspected member of Al Qaeda”, or “possible member of Al Qaeda”. You do remember how the word “sympathizer” got stretched, don’t you?
So, is anyone who donates to a Muslim charity an “Al Qaeda sympathizer”? Is anyone who contacts Al Jazeera an Al Qaeda sympathizer?
One Joe McCarthy in my life is enough.
Bob in HI
Thanks for that patriotic America song; now its bouncing around my head where my brain ought to be. Oh well, needed something to take up that unused space. Mary, I love your restricted immunity thought; problem is, they already have that immunity under FISA and the standard wiretapping statutes.
Speaking of Orwellian, I keep seeing this phrase “alleged to have assisted the gov’t”
That can be construed more than one way. I think it’s more the shell game than outright denial. “There’s a pea under one or more of these pods, but we can’t/won’t tell you which pod(s) contains the pea.” As opposed to “We can’t/won’t tell you if there is a pea at all, even though we once said there was.”
No, the pea must remain like Schroedinger’s cat; always present, never observed. Once the pea is identified under any one shell, that fixes the coordinates and they are screwed; because they are all improper/illegal to some extent and, if by some chance that one shell is not, that narrows the potentials for the remaining shells, which are.
http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp01292008.html
A Sibel Edmonds Timeline
“We Can’t Afford to Let Them Spill the Beans”
By GARY LEUPP
No, the pea must remain like Schroedinger’s cat; always present, never observed.
Quantum politics.
For anyone hanging around who wonders what the heck Schroedinger’s cat has to do with anything, it certainly appears as a potentially deadly metaphor for many of the discussions we’ve been having.
Um, can those CIA tapes both exist and not exist at the same time?
Bob in HI
Okay. Tinfoil hat time. Am I the only person who wonders if there is a connection between the internet cable “interruption” affecting the Middle East today and the potential expiration of PAA in 16 days? It’s been going on all day and there still is no official explanation.
Quantum Cheney
I want Obama or Hillary to say something about these hearings and about Mukasey’s behavior on the stand. I will vote for the one who is willing to take a risk to save our constitution. How do we get them to “lead” on this issue.
64 - that’s not the problem, that’s the fun of it. Of course they do - so the Dems aren’t giving anything (unless there is somehow something to this “US switch” issue they have mentioned). And the Dems are not very effectively saying that this is already covered, so this says it for them - here is an amendment that clearly give immunity for helping with the “Al-Qaeda Calling” program.
This makes the Republicans, though, have to say why they want immuninity for the NOT al-Qaeda calling program that doesn’t exist.
Do you have a link?
Is this the same one affecting India? Is it electric infrastructre related, or straight tubes?
70 - I don’t know enough about it to have tinfoil or not. As it gets explained in a dumbed down fashion for someone like me, I may go buy a roll.
63 - oh yeah, that is a problem. The only way I can see around it is to say their Al-Qaeda list goes to the FISA court to be reviewed and pared down. The immunity would be for the Al-Qaeda calls, though, not for “material support” instances. It would have to be fleshed to be offerec, but I think it is the framing of an amendment that shifts the conversation from “protect the people who helped save us from terrorists” to, “but not lawbreakers who engaged in any massive spying of US citizens on US soil without al-Qaeda being on the phone.”
It’s not an amendment that would pass - not with these Republicans, but it sure shifts the rhetoric.
Same one. Theory is a boat-anchor-caused cable break somewhere in the mediterranean, presumably of a fibre optic hard line.
Surprisingly, CNN has a good article.
It appears that two undersea cables have problems.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/.....index.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....jI8e.s0NUE
Twas reported as a “cable cut”. Maybe yes, maybe no. Here’s a story link.
Al Gore’s latest book, Assualt on Reason, in chapter #5 The Assualt on the Individual describes very clearly what we are not dealing with. Without penalty compliance is unlikely. Even with present penalties compiance may be unlikely under the executive priveledge of the new bi king and his mad uncle prick.
Handing immunity over to those compicit in law breaking renders the law moot. The assualt on individual privacy in the name of national security is now the norm. Mr, Bush has removed a signifigant oportion of our individual freedom using his AG Mukassey and predacessors.
Al Gore served 2 terms in each house and 2 terms in the White House 24 years of the highest elected offices. Nancy Peliosi, Harry Reid and Steny Hoyer are not in the same cerbral league. It is time for the Dem leadership past and president including Carter to create a leadership conference and get impeachment investigations going. Grenwald and other progressives could get behind this. We have to take some of the powers away and put a bridle on the damage that is still running at a gallop.
Amen, brother
76 -
and Iran? Any mention?
No, no mention of iran I could find in a quick Google News search, other than:
Sorry, forgot to cite: That was from The Lede.
OK, this is interesting:
So the entire Internet traffic of at least “Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Bahrain Pakistan and India” is now running through the US.
Hmmm.
On top of that, most stories are saying that much of the backup capacity goes through satellites. That’s back to old FISA technology, as I understand.
What about Palestine?
From an ABC News post this morning, Reid seems to have a fairly specific FISA plan in mind and is working around Super Tuesday:
Haven’t seen any mention of whether Palestine is affected, and a quick Google News search turns up nada. So unknown.
“What about Palestine?”
Runners and smoke signals?
Bob in HI
Did anyone get a chance to see the TPM article “Conyers to Mukasey: Why Ban Muckraker”? It’s down now…
Bmaz;
The National Lawyers Guild at their Washingtom convention end of 2007 made a resolution to impeach Cheney and Bush. Have you read that. Another lawyers convention followed in New York with diefferent but similar statements. Have yoy read them all?
Lawyers are the people who do the heavy lifting you shouls all be on this point. People on the Addington/Yoo side of the bench operate in a different lawology sort of a theocratic federalist righteousness. I think those concept were squarely addressed in the Constitutional conventions leading up to the Declaration of Indepence when what we would be as a nation were hammered out. The neocans have reverted back and are resurecting long ago nixed ideology. Jefferson, Linclon and his like would be rolling over in their graves if they could hear this treason.
Yes lawyer can be horrid some of the time but it is time they all came together for our Republic and the representitivr democracies that is being trashed ny Bush/Cheneu and company.
Yes. Recommended this over a month ago on the Lake and added it to the building of the Presidential Platform for Dems as well. To use it also as a leadership development platform for basic policy strategy such as energy, health care…in addition to leadership change and actions to uphold the balance of powers…