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	<title>Comments on: The Sudden Change of Story on Iranian EFPs</title>
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	<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/</link>
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		<title>By: emptywheel</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/comment-page-1/#comment-41767</link>
		<dc:creator>emptywheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:50:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/#comment-41767</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I said in the last thread that I thought there were three factions in question. Those are:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Helgerson, his IG office, and those who oppose torture vigorously&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Kappes and Sulick (and potentially Kiriakou and/or Grenier), who I am guessing are in-between&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Porter Goss and his cronies–which may or may not include Crazy Pete Hoektra, who were ardently pro-torture and were closely aligned with Cheney&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I say there are three factions, because the split between the pro-torture and anti-torture crowd is very pronounced (we’ve had a lot of stories about that split), and the split between Kappes and Sulick and the Gosslings is very pronounced (we know taht Kappes was very popular before and still, so we should assume a distinct lack of continuity between Goss’ tenure, particularly as it relates to alliance with Cheney and hackery, and Kappes’ tenure.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’m not sure where Rodriguez falls, but for a lot of reasons I lump him with the Gosslings.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What’s unclear is where those two different splits come down on the two pressing issues–the torture tapes, and the NIE. Though we know that Kappes is one of the people that vetted the NIE, and he has proven his willingness to make a stand on principle before, so I’m betting he is one of the people–if not the primary person–who was ready to go public with the NIE results.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;That said, it’s unclear where the Kappes crowd is with torture. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Laura Rozen &lt;a href=&quot;http://motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2007/12/john-kiriakou.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;reported&lt;/a&gt; that John Kiriakou was the executive assistant for Robert Grenier. Now, I wouldn’t automatically assume that Grenier and Kiriakou are the same faction. You’d think a top spook would get to choose his Exec Assistant, but Grenier made some claims during the Libby trial that suggested there was some operational space between him and Kiriakou–which may or may not have been a true claim. That said, Grenier was reportedly fired because 1) he was not Goss’ man, and 2) he wasn’t tough enough (the Europeans translated that as “he didn’t like torture). Which suggests Grenier may have been fired bc he was solidly in the anti-torture crowd. Given Kiriakou’s ambivalent reports–”torture is bad but it did work,” I might put him in the Kappes crowd. That is, in a position where people for legal, moral, and efficacy reasons disavow torture, but where they also want to make sure none of the guys who did the torture are held legally liable.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So I suspect that there are two somewhat amorphous positions (between those who would leak to expose torture, adn those who want to make sure no one is held legally responsible but also want to be done with torture), as well as the distinct crowd of the Gosslings, under whose authority the tapes were destroyed. In any case, the Kappes faction appears ascendant now (though Helgerson looks like he’s heading for a win on the torture issue), and I do think they were responsible for the publication of the NIE.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I said in the last thread that I thought there were three factions in question. Those are:</p>
<p>Helgerson, his IG office, and those who oppose torture vigorously</p>
<p>Kappes and Sulick (and potentially Kiriakou and/or Grenier), who I am guessing are in-between</p>
<p>Porter Goss and his cronies–which may or may not include Crazy Pete Hoektra, who were ardently pro-torture and were closely aligned with Cheney</p>
<p>I say there are three factions, because the split between the pro-torture and anti-torture crowd is very pronounced (we’ve had a lot of stories about that split), and the split between Kappes and Sulick and the Gosslings is very pronounced (we know taht Kappes was very popular before and still, so we should assume a distinct lack of continuity between Goss’ tenure, particularly as it relates to alliance with Cheney and hackery, and Kappes’ tenure.</p>
<p>I’m not sure where Rodriguez falls, but for a lot of reasons I lump him with the Gosslings.</p>
<p>What’s unclear is where those two different splits come down on the two pressing issues–the torture tapes, and the NIE. Though we know that Kappes is one of the people that vetted the NIE, and he has proven his willingness to make a stand on principle before, so I’m betting he is one of the people–if not the primary person–who was ready to go public with the NIE results.</p>
<p>That said, it’s unclear where the Kappes crowd is with torture. </p>
<p>Laura Rozen <a href="http://motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2007/12/john-kiriakou.html" rel="nofollow">reported</a> that John Kiriakou was the executive assistant for Robert Grenier. Now, I wouldn’t automatically assume that Grenier and Kiriakou are the same faction. You’d think a top spook would get to choose his Exec Assistant, but Grenier made some claims during the Libby trial that suggested there was some operational space between him and Kiriakou–which may or may not have been a true claim. That said, Grenier was reportedly fired because 1) he was not Goss’ man, and 2) he wasn’t tough enough (the Europeans translated that as “he didn’t like torture). Which suggests Grenier may have been fired bc he was solidly in the anti-torture crowd. Given Kiriakou’s ambivalent reports–”torture is bad but it did work,” I might put him in the Kappes crowd. That is, in a position where people for legal, moral, and efficacy reasons disavow torture, but where they also want to make sure none of the guys who did the torture are held legally liable.</p>
<p>So I suspect that there are two somewhat amorphous positions (between those who would leak to expose torture, adn those who want to make sure no one is held legally responsible but also want to be done with torture), as well as the distinct crowd of the Gosslings, under whose authority the tapes were destroyed. In any case, the Kappes faction appears ascendant now (though Helgerson looks like he’s heading for a win on the torture issue), and I do think they were responsible for the publication of the NIE.</p>
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		<title>By: merkwurdiglieber</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/comment-page-1/#comment-41766</link>
		<dc:creator>merkwurdiglieber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/#comment-41766</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think you have them about right, patriots skimming for their next gig,&lt;br /&gt;
leaving the mess for the opposition to clean up as Murdoch acts as their&lt;br /&gt;
shadow cabinet… nailed.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you have them about right, patriots skimming for their next gig,<br />
leaving the mess for the opposition to clean up as Murdoch acts as their<br />
shadow cabinet… nailed.</p>
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		<title>By: DeadLast</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/comment-page-1/#comment-41761</link>
		<dc:creator>DeadLast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/#comment-41761</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;My take is the metaphorical message of the series “Left Behind.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;BushCo (i.e., Halliburton, Carlyle Group, &lt;strike&gt;Enron&lt;/strike&gt;, Blackwater, the House of Saud, etc.) are planning on “leaving the rest of us behind.”  As they move thier repective bases of operation to Dubai (for tax-free safekeeping and minimal oversight), do they care if the Saudis and Iranians work together?  They will already own the oil distribution deals from Iraq.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It is kind of like when Boeing left union-friendly Seattle for Chicago.  Who is going to complain in Chicago about outsourcing Seattle jobs?  The major difference is that Bush has burdened the US with debt used to fund his start up venture.  The dollar will be weak, and the US will become a growling toothless old dog.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But BushCo will have raw materials with a distribution deal.  He will be the wealthiest ex-Presidente ever.  And Cheney will be richer and meaner still.  The only fantasy they won’t realize is being crowned grand ayatollahs.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So why should they really care about Iran.  They are more than willing to pander to them, ultimately granting them legitimacy, as long as they are granted power and freedom to operate thier financial empire from Dubai.  After all, haven’t the republicans proven that American religous leaders can be kept in line with sex scandals?  Why won’t the same work with the mullahs?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My take is the metaphorical message of the series “Left Behind.”</p>
<p>BushCo (i.e., Halliburton, Carlyle Group, <strike>Enron</strike>, Blackwater, the House of Saud, etc.) are planning on “leaving the rest of us behind.”  As they move thier repective bases of operation to Dubai (for tax-free safekeeping and minimal oversight), do they care if the Saudis and Iranians work together?  They will already own the oil distribution deals from Iraq.  </p>
<p>It is kind of like when Boeing left union-friendly Seattle for Chicago.  Who is going to complain in Chicago about outsourcing Seattle jobs?  The major difference is that Bush has burdened the US with debt used to fund his start up venture.  The dollar will be weak, and the US will become a growling toothless old dog.  </p>
<p>But BushCo will have raw materials with a distribution deal.  He will be the wealthiest ex-Presidente ever.  And Cheney will be richer and meaner still.  The only fantasy they won’t realize is being crowned grand ayatollahs.  </p>
<p>So why should they really care about Iran.  They are more than willing to pander to them, ultimately granting them legitimacy, as long as they are granted power and freedom to operate thier financial empire from Dubai.  After all, haven’t the republicans proven that American religous leaders can be kept in line with sex scandals?  Why won’t the same work with the mullahs?</p>
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		<title>By: brendanx</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/comment-page-1/#comment-41758</link>
		<dc:creator>brendanx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/#comment-41758</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;What is shows is that they are as clued in as ever to what is expected of them from Washington.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is shows is that they are as clued in as ever to what is expected of them from Washington.</p>
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		<title>By: brendanx</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/comment-page-1/#comment-41757</link>
		<dc:creator>brendanx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/#comment-41757</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Does the addition of “Dog” now make it “dogshitstain”?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does the addition of “Dog” now make it “dogshitstain”?</p>
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		<title>By: phred</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/comment-page-1/#comment-41756</link>
		<dc:creator>phred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/#comment-41756</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I’ll be curious to see EW’s response, but I think this is all part of a larger whole.  The Intel agencies, especially CIA, were given no end of crap about their lousy intelligence that hypothetically took us into the Iraq war, when in fact it was Cheney’s trumped up intel that provided the pretext for the neocon game plan that preceded 9/11.  Meanwhile, OVP and EOP appear to have been instrumental in ginning up crappy legal cover for all manner of crimes they expected other people to carry out.  Conveniently everything has been classified up the wazoo, so any dissent has been kept out of public view.  It appears the rifts may have been deepest over at CIA (despite the better known threat of mass resignations, which did not in fact occur, at DoJ).  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;CIA lost a lot of career people under Goss and it has been reported that Hayden was having a tough time replacing people.  I think between Cheney’s continued pressure to mix it up with Iran (as if he hasn’t fucked up enough already) and a genuine desire to not go to jail because of “other people’s incompetence”, some folks at CIA are fighting back.  This will most likely effect the Cheney run enterprises such at torture, Iran, and Pakistan, as opposed to the mess over a DoJ which seemed to be more of Rove’s handiwork.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’ll be curious to see EW’s response, but I think this is all part of a larger whole.  The Intel agencies, especially CIA, were given no end of crap about their lousy intelligence that hypothetically took us into the Iraq war, when in fact it was Cheney’s trumped up intel that provided the pretext for the neocon game plan that preceded 9/11.  Meanwhile, OVP and EOP appear to have been instrumental in ginning up crappy legal cover for all manner of crimes they expected other people to carry out.  Conveniently everything has been classified up the wazoo, so any dissent has been kept out of public view.  It appears the rifts may have been deepest over at CIA (despite the better known threat of mass resignations, which did not in fact occur, at DoJ).  </p>
<p>CIA lost a lot of career people under Goss and it has been reported that Hayden was having a tough time replacing people.  I think between Cheney’s continued pressure to mix it up with Iran (as if he hasn’t fucked up enough already) and a genuine desire to not go to jail because of “other people’s incompetence”, some folks at CIA are fighting back.  This will most likely effect the Cheney run enterprises such at torture, Iran, and Pakistan, as opposed to the mess over a DoJ which seemed to be more of Rove’s handiwork.</p>
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		<title>By: merkwurdiglieber</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/comment-page-1/#comment-41755</link>
		<dc:creator>merkwurdiglieber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/#comment-41755</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;China has already been given permission to construct their own oil&lt;br /&gt;
terminal by Saudi Arabia, the only other nation with their own is the USA.&lt;br /&gt;
That and the softening of the dollar only petroleum transaction mandate by&lt;br /&gt;
Saudi indicate the “already” you note. Chinese chess is even more long&lt;br /&gt;
term than Persian.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>China has already been given permission to construct their own oil<br />
terminal by Saudi Arabia, the only other nation with their own is the USA.<br />
That and the softening of the dollar only petroleum transaction mandate by<br />
Saudi indicate the “already” you note. Chinese chess is even more long<br />
term than Persian.</p>
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		<title>By: freepatriot</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/comment-page-1/#comment-41754</link>
		<dc:creator>freepatriot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/#comment-41754</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;off topic, but …&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;come on, no thread on the caucas ???&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Josh has some of the funniest political headlines I’ve ever seen&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;the mittster figures if nobody shows up, he wins:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;If Republican turnout today is 80,000 or above, Mitt Romney’s campaign could be in trouble, according to Doug Gross, Mr. Romney’s Iowa campaign chairman.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;fredo is stamping his foot and screaming “I am too relevent”:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Is Fred Thompson really going to quit the race before New Hampshire if he posts a weak showing in Iowa, as an  anonymous adviser said this morning?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“That is absolutely made up out of whole cloth,” said the former U.S. Senator from Tennessee.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;probably find some scrapes of that cloth in fredo’s campaign headquarters, if you could find fredo’s campaign headquarters&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;and it looks like kkkarl rove’s wet dream candidate is gonna finish third&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;so much for inevitibility and shit&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;so why we bothering with this mixed message propaganda from the repuglitards ???&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;what’s next, is Boykin gonna tell us that their God is bigger than our God ???&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;these fuckers are just throwing shit against a wall to see what sticks&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;we don’t have to play that game&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;we could watch the repuglitard follies instead&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;who wants popcorn ???&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>off topic, but …</p>
<p>come on, no thread on the caucas ???</p>
<p>Josh has some of the funniest political headlines I’ve ever seen</p>
<p>the mittster figures if nobody shows up, he wins:</p>
<blockquote><p>If Republican turnout today is 80,000 or above, Mitt Romney’s campaign could be in trouble, according to Doug Gross, Mr. Romney’s Iowa campaign chairman.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>fredo is stamping his foot and screaming “I am too relevent”:</p>
<blockquote><p>Is Fred Thompson really going to quit the race before New Hampshire if he posts a weak showing in Iowa, as an  anonymous adviser said this morning?</p>
<p>“That is absolutely made up out of whole cloth,” said the former U.S. Senator from Tennessee.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>probably find some scrapes of that cloth in fredo’s campaign headquarters, if you could find fredo’s campaign headquarters</p>
<p>and it looks like kkkarl rove’s wet dream candidate is gonna finish third</p>
<p>so much for inevitibility and shit</p>
<p>so why we bothering with this mixed message propaganda from the repuglitards ???</p>
<p>what’s next, is Boykin gonna tell us that their God is bigger than our God ???</p>
<p>these fuckers are just throwing shit against a wall to see what sticks</p>
<p>we don’t have to play that game</p>
<p>we could watch the repuglitard follies instead</p>
<p>who wants popcorn ???</p>
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		<title>By: Rayne</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/comment-page-1/#comment-41753</link>
		<dc:creator>Rayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:08:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/#comment-41753</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yeah, like the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/25/international/middleeast/25bomb.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;377 tons of explosives including RDX and HMX that went missing from al QaQaa&lt;/a&gt; were never a factor in IED production.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;OT — &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.startribune.com/13006111.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;MN-USA Paulose replacement named&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;First Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Magill has been chosen to replace Rachel Paulose as U.S. attorney on an acting basis, according to a Senate staffer.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The staffer, who requested anonymity so as not to upstage the Justice Department, said Thursday that Magill is expected to take over the office in the next day or two.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, like the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/25/international/middleeast/25bomb.html" rel="nofollow">377 tons of explosives including RDX and HMX that went missing from al QaQaa</a> were never a factor in IED production.</p>
<p>OT — <a href="http://www.startribune.com/13006111.html" rel="nofollow">MN-USA Paulose replacement named</a>.</p>
<blockquote><p>First Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Magill has been chosen to replace Rachel Paulose as U.S. attorney on an acting basis, according to a Senate staffer.</p>
<p>The staffer, who requested anonymity so as not to upstage the Justice Department, said Thursday that Magill is expected to take over the office in the next day or two.</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: whitecat</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/comment-page-1/#comment-41752</link>
		<dc:creator>whitecat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/03/the-sudden-change-of-story-on-iranian-efps/#comment-41752</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;If anyone would like to really understand the neo-cons and their war-mongering tendencies then read two books (to start). They are “Conservatives Without A Conscience” by John W. Dean and “The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot” by Naomi Wolf. It is important to understand the authoritairan personality and then to understand that the U.S. is a “closing democracy” that has already started the slide toward dictatorship. I am now going to start “Broken Government” by John W. Dean to take my mind today off the Iowa Caucuses. Randi Rhodes on “Air America” has listed all three of these books as our “homework” assignments. So, get out there, by books, support authors (Like Valerie Plame Wilson and Jeremy Scahill) and arm yourself with knowledge. Its all very interesting to follow the news knowing what the Right-Wing Authoritarians and their Social Dominators have in mind for us.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If anyone would like to really understand the neo-cons and their war-mongering tendencies then read two books (to start). They are “Conservatives Without A Conscience” by John W. Dean and “The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot” by Naomi Wolf. It is important to understand the authoritairan personality and then to understand that the U.S. is a “closing democracy” that has already started the slide toward dictatorship. I am now going to start “Broken Government” by John W. Dean to take my mind today off the Iowa Caucuses. Randi Rhodes on “Air America” has listed all three of these books as our “homework” assignments. So, get out there, by books, support authors (Like Valerie Plame Wilson and Jeremy Scahill) and arm yourself with knowledge. Its all very interesting to follow the news knowing what the Right-Wing Authoritarians and their Social Dominators have in mind for us.</p>
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