It appears the fluid and constantly evolving rationalization of the Bush Administration for their destruction of the torture tapes may be starting to congeal in an operative theory relying, at least in significant part, on a provision of the Federal Records Act allowing destruction of certain records located outside of the United States during wartime. As EW pointed out in the last post, this defense was revealed in Isikoff's December 21, 2007 Newsweek article:
But agency officials could be relying on another provision of the records law that permits an agency, during wartime, to destroy records outside the continental United States that are judged to be "prejudicial to the interests of the United States." The CIA has argued that one reason for destroying the tapes was that agency officials feared that if the videotapes were leaked they might compromise the identity of the CIA interrogators.
It is certainly a relief that we don't have some sort of rogue Administration running around destroying evidence material to a whole plethora of cases and forums, and that their decision was fully in compliance with United States law. That law would be the Federal Records Act, and the pertinent provision, as codified in 36 CFR Part 1228, reads:
a) Destruction of records outside the territorial limits of the continental United States is authorized whenever, during a state of war between the United States and any other nation or when hostile action by a foreign power appears imminent, the head of the agency that has custody of the records determines that their retention would be prejudicial to the interest of the United States, or that they occupy space urgently needed for military purposes and are without sufficient administrative, legal, research, or other value to warrant their continued preservation (44 U.S.C. 3311).
(b) Within 6 months after the destruction of any records under this authorization, a written statement describing the character of the records and showing when and where the disposal was accomplished shall be submitted to NARA (NWML) by the agency official who directed the disposal. (ed. note: see also 44 U.S.C. 3311).
Well, hold on a minute here. Is that their final answer? Of course it's not their final answer; there is never a final answer, on anything, with the Bush Administration; just a continuing series of intentionally disingenuous obfuscations. It takes no more than a cursory inspection of the foreign war records exception to expect that the Administration will very soon be on the move again, morphing away from this version of their rationalization to the next cock and bull story.
Initially, the provision applies "during a state of war between the United States and any other nation or when hostile action by a foreign power appears imminent". To the best I can discern, there has not been a formal declaration of war against another nation by the United States Congress, the branch with the sole power of doing so under Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution. The AUMF will be trotted out, along with the ubiquitous Article II Commander in Chief tripe, but the simple fact is the AUMF is not a formal declaration of war and Bush's Article II powers do not allow him to magically transform the AUMF into a formal declaration of war. It is also hard to fathom any basis for the Administration to claim "action by a foreign power appears imminent" at the time the tapes were destroyed.
Secondly, the only person with the statutory authority to exercise the power to order emergency destruction of foreign locus records during a state of war is "the head of the agency that has custody of the records". In this instance, there are only two people that could plausibly be considered to fall into this definition, Porter Goss, the head of the CIA at the time, and John Negroponte, the Director of National Intelligence (DNI) at the time and who is theoretically over all the intelligence agencies, including the CIA. Negroponte not only firmly advised against destruction or the torture tapes, he felt so strongly about it that he memorialized it in writing to insure there was a record. Multiple reports indicate that Porter Goss also advised against the destruction of the torture tapes and that he is dismayed and angry they were destroyed.
Next, assuming there was a proper state of war (there was not) and the right authority ordered the destruction of the evidence tapes (they did not), were the right circumstances present permitting destruction under the provision? It is hard to imagine how a few videotapes could credibly be considered to "occupy space urgently needed for military purposes", nor can it, even remotely, be said that the tapes "are without sufficient administrative, legal, research, or other value to warrant their continued preservation". The only authorized situation remaining is where the records are "prejudicial to the interest of the United States". I will grant the contents of the torture tapes are prejudicial to the interests of the United States; but, personally, I am not very plussed with conflation of concealment of blatant and intentional commission of national and international war crimes by elected politicians, and the general interest of the country. Furthermore, these provisions are designed to apply only to emergency situations. What emergency was there necessitating the destruction of evidence that no one knew about, kept in a safe in a third party country no one is aware of, that is under no known threat or attack by anything, some four years after the tapes were made? The only threat was that the tapes would be discovered and the heinous war crimes of this Administration become exposed and proved beyond any reasonable doubt. Not particularly compelling.
You can almost detect a pattern here eh? The next consideration is, if all the requisite elements permitting the emergency destruction of the torture tapes were met (they were not), were the proper protocols and procedures followed in effecting the destruction? That would require that:
Within 6 months after the destruction of any records under this authorization, a written statement describing the character of the records and showing when and where the disposal was accomplished shall be submitted to NARA (NWML) by the agency official who directed the disposal.
Perhaps there is such documentation and it simply has not been disclosed yet. You would think that this document, at least in a minimally redacted form, would have been trotted out to exhibit the propriety of conduct by the Administration; but we have not seen that. Time will tell, but it is a safe bet that if there was such a legitimate and fully compliant certification made to the NARA within six months of the destruction of the torture tapes, we would have heard about it.
It is almost impossible to know where the convoluted, disingenuous dog and pony show being run by the Bush Administration on the destruction of the torture tapes will end up, but if the line of argument discussed herein is what they are standing on, they are going to need railroad cars of pixie dust to coat the pill for anyone of common sense to swallow.
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bmaz,
I didn’t have time to digest all the above, but briefly,
I would think that all the US has to do is to store the tapes and/or do the deed in any foreign embassy in Washington, DC or on any foreign embassy property.
Then the laws don’t apply.
Usually a good idea to read before you speak.
bmaz
Very nice post–thanks for doing this. I can’t wait to see just how bad their rationalizaiton is.
No congressional declaration of war. But don’t forget that bush “self-declared” himself “war president” in January of ‘04 in a tv interview. (He said: “I’m a war president. I have war on my mind.”) It seemed pretty juvenile and narcissistic at the time. And I thought it had to do with the coming election, but given all the extraordinary powers he’s claimed, maybe it was more calculated than it seemed at that point.
This dog just ain’t gonna hunt. Where do you suppose the scripted translations are that were in the hands of the analysts? And were the results of the interrogations all analyzed overseas? Bush a war president my foot.
When all is said and done by Mukasey’s tame munchkins, and by the now emasculated CIA Inspector General, should any suggestion or doubt still be raised by Court or Congress, Deadeye will dutifully instruct Junya that in the name of National Security, Junya must unfortunately declare all under the all-encompassing
safetyumbrella of State Security.Shorter Administration: “Hiding stuff, the only thing we’re good at.”
Imminent, as in the face of defeat and takeover by the enemy? If so, would that cover the shredding of the records at the Iran embassy (to no avail, alas, they put them back together again)? We were not in a state of war, but there was a siege going on. Would the same not be true of the embassy in Vietnam, when (correct me if I am wrong), we were also not at war?
On the one hand, if I am following you, that would establish a precedent for destruction when war was not declared. On the other, it would be hard to invoke that precedent without making the case that is “prejudicial to the interest of the US,” in short that we were comparably getting out of Dodge in a hurry when they were destroyed.
But then consistency is not a concern of these hobgoblin minds, unlike that of certain trolls. BTW, trolls were extended warm greetings by many and sundry last night on, I believe, Egregious’s watch.
They are good at burnings as well.
Bmaz, your description of how the various administration dodges amount to tainted meat to throw off the dogs, is nicely fleshed out.
Is it time as well to analyse the evidence vacumn relating to specific 9/11 convictions. To revisit aspects of the 9/11 official account that depend on the supposedly destroyed evidence?
Can it be determined that the supposedly destroyed evidence can really ever be said to have risen to the level of actual usable evidence? Can it be proved that it ever was evidence and that it proved anything at all?
Junya can handle spilling the flammable liquid, but then lighting matches is beyond his ken. Deadeye, however, can flic a bic with the best.
The EU has reopened the rendition panel investigation after a Ukraine building US built was shown on Russian television with documentation of “~1,000″ ‘civil’ aircraft flights known to be spycharters 2001ff. I wonder when that facility was built, and if part of the reluctance to discuss the reason for the putative shredding of acetate records now has bearing on the delicate politics of that country during the orange revolution, or even providing leverage in diplomacy now by Putin, given the media likely are government sponsored, though I would wonder how involved in foreign policy Goss would have had to have been when serving his 20 months at The Co.
OT bmaz, you and EW really ought to consider a weekly Impeachment Trash Talk Thread now that virtually any piece of evidence could float in from anywhere - 10 million e-mails, a Torture Tape, an Abramoff Picture, a Whistleblower, etc - and take BuchCo Down.
It seems pretty clear to me that Bush and Cheney won’t be in Office - either by Resignation or Impeachment - by the end of the Summer ahead. They aren’t Running the Clock Out, they’re running into a Box Canyon.
The real test of prognostication, imho, would be to pick the month of Impeachment and the Crime that takes them Down - And there are So Many Crimes to Choose from!
So, for instance, I’m an Optimist - I’d say March and Torture!
Maybe we could call it Pin the Crime on His Ass?
It is standard operating procedure for this Administration to trot out stories util one gains a little traction and then to stick to it relentlessly. Remember the firings of the US attorneys and the story they used there? Clinton did it and what Bush did was no different, yadda, yadda, yadda. I could see this going the same way. “It could have been handled better but the law says we could do it and we did it.” So if this is the story they settle on, expect a few Senator Foghorns in the coming days to be enlisted to remind us that if we investigate this the terrorists win and that the destruction of the tapes was nothing big and that it is being used by Democrats for “political” purposes.
Yes, we know.
If they use my tax dollars to do it, they’re subject to US law.
great idea. I vote yes for Impeachment Trash Talk Thread
First off, BMAZ, awesome post!
TheraP, Bush wants so badly to be seen as the decisive war president. Maybe it is part of the neocon thinking that they need a war to provide the backdrop required for legitimacy, but time and again I have been struck about how much Bush wants a war to show that he has cojones or something. Trouble is, he has fallen flat on his face every time he has opened his mouth…
Finally, Radiofreewill, I love your prediction that these idiots will no longer be around by the end of summer, and that would be an awesome Christmas present! “Judge not lest ye be judged” — but I so hope to see these idiots frog-marched out. I hate what they have done to our country!
The EuroParliament webpage seems a little dated mostly 2006, as was the AP article I cited from November 2007, but there is mention of a delegation meeting with SHorton, PGoss, many US persons; PG at page 4 of 9 in that document. But this is somewhat likely offTopic. Usually the instruction /make a paperTrail/ is fairly concurrent once there is chalk on the cleats, if there are zebras watching; with or without an instaReplay rule
Bush, in his recklessness, has done nothing less than to Make the Proposition: The American *Brand* - which, for 230 years now, has been “Freedom of Choice” - is now Synonymous with Torture, Corruption and Ideology.
If We don’t do anything to throw-off the Tyranny Bush ‘put’ on US, then We’ll deserve Our Fall From Grace in the Eyes of the Rest of the World.
Bush can’t Take Our Integrity Away - Only We can Give it Away.
So, what’s it gonna be?
Are We gonna let Bush steal America and put his *Brand* on US?
Or, are We going to Exercise Our Freedom of Choice by Defending the Constitution, Honoring Our Treaties and Standing-Up for Basic Human Dignity?
How many times has BushCo said: The United States Does Not Torture!
Unless We mean it when We say it, we’re no different than BushCo.
We have to Impeach, or We are Bush.
Actually, Hugh, I think the SOP will follow a different direction, and it may already be in play. They put somebody at the front to feign false indignation, demand thorough investigation, who gets carried away with offerings of immunity and contaminates and tanks the real investigative effort. They’ll poison
Bet EW will agree that Rep. Crazy Pete Hoekstra is a likely candidate for this position.
Oops, forgot to add that the unusual replacement of national archivist John Carlin in April of 2004 with Allen Weinstein was iffy. But at the time it looked more like a move by the administration to do one or all of three things: keep a firm hand on management of Poppy’s records as they were released, ensure the 9/11 commission only got what the administration wanted them to have, and/or keep prying eyes out of DeadEye’s Fourth Branch records on the Energy Task Force.
But perhaps there’s a chance that the “tapes” were also a factor in the shuffling at NARA…would they have concerns in April 2004 about the
destructionmanagement of this documentation?This is the guy - the Decider - who Vetoed Children’s Healthcare - and who Ordered Torture, in Secret.
Our President.
Now, to steer my soapbox derby car back to the thread at hand - The Barbarity of Humans Waterboarding other Humans, caught on Tape, can’t be papered over with Legal Quibblings like these Records Act interpretations.
Destroying Evidence of Torture doesn’t Erase the Torture, just like Disposing of the Body doesn’t Erase the Murder.
And, it’s not like the Tapes are the Only evidence of Systematic Torture - there are the Detainees themselves, with their stories, Kirakou, and all of the reporting done on the Black Sites, Renditions and assorted Court Cases.
Allthough the Tapes are, supposedly, destroyed, thanks to them we are no longer doubting that Waterboarding was done. Until Kirakou, Zubaydah and the Tapes, we weren’t really sure about the Waterboarding, but now we are - and Waterboarding is certainly Torture, if not also a War Crime.
All Ordered in Our Name, but Secretly, by Bush the War President.
Yup. All Ordered in Our Name, but Secretly, by Bush the War President.
Sure looks like it when one considers:
– the careful use of the phrase “first recollection” by Bush
– four attorneys within the White House were involved in the assessment of the destruction of tapes
– persons of senior rank like Negroponte and Goss are on record as saying they didn’t support the destruction of tapes
– deafening silence from DeadEye’s sector, including Addington
– no rush for the microphone by others who might have been able to clarify this and put to rest any doubts about the handling process (hello Rummy? AbuG? anybody?)
There is a nebulous outline here, drawn in by the pieces provided and further clarified by the pieces pointedly not furnished.
Crazy Pete starts acting out while Dick shows the kids the direct approach, there has to be a security camera recording of that EOB emergency as well.
In any foreign embassy, they are on foreign soil, just as if they were overseas. That is all I am saying.
Yes, but it is a bit of an inane discussion point when the specific wording of the law states that it is applicable only “outside the territorial limits of the continental United States” don’t you think? Unless you are operating within some type of spatio-temporal rift (admittedly a possibility), “foreign embassies in Washington DC” are not going to be located “outside the territorial limits of the continental United States”. Thats all I am saying…..
Gee! Why not just have secret record facilities in Hawaii or Alaska!
Glad to see that Al Qaida is considered a “nation”? And precisely when was this “Declaration of War” issued? Was that the one against Saddam? Seems that it was very unlikely that a brigade of Saddam’s Presidential Gaurd was going to overrun the CIA HQ in the US Embassy in Bangkok!
The “Head of the Agency” would, in this case, be…uhhmmmm!…Porter Goss? Not Jose “Jack” Rodriguez? But Porter denies that he authorized it.
And the lawyers all say that THEY never authorized it. But maybe we haven’t heard from the “right” lawyers.
And I’m sure that they must have really needed all that space occupied by the videotapes in Thailand to make more for the war on terror!
I notice that it’s interesting that the head of agency is not required to consult further when he makes the determination that the records are without sufficient administrative, legal, research, or other value . Of course, when you have a Federal Judge suggesting that evidence related to terrorism trials still being conducted may be found on tapes of those individual while they were interrogated or detained…that makes arguing that they had no “legal” grounding a tough row to hoe. And certainly, without actually SEEING THEM it would be unreasonable to argue whether they might have sufficient administrative, legal, research, or other value.
But perhaps Goss did view them? Where? How?
If they really want to argue this legalizes the destruction then they have to explain many of the false statements they have already made to Congress and the Public.
you also lack the intelectual ability to digest what is posted in this thread, shit stain
you’re just like joke line (you remember him, shit stain)
a stupid mutherfucker who starts a conversation, tries to act like he knows something, then admits that he lacks the intelectual ability to understand the data that he started the conversation to discuss in the first place
let me save you a lot of time shit stain
everybody here already knows that you lack the intellectual curiosity and ability to understand this stuff. And we understand that you have limited time on your hands, so you can’t waste a lot of time on this stuff
what we wonder about is this:
if you lack the time to study the data, and you lack the intellectual ability to understand the data, why do you waste your time posting here telling us how little you understand and how little time you have to study
instead of posting that you don’t understand the data (which is obvious just from reading your posts), why not save the time you waste advertising your IGNORANCE and use that time to CURE YOUR IGNORANCE ???
does logic totally fucking elude you ???
never had the intellectual curiosity to figure that much out shit stain ???
instead of informing the world that you ain’t got a fucking clue, why not try to get a fucking clue instead ???
here’s a great example of repuglitard logic in action
the shit stain wants george to ask a foreign government to destroy george’s torture tapes so george can avoid destroying evidence himself
so basically, the shit stain is proposing that the presnit should hand over to a foreign government, classified data with a high potential to be used for black mail, and trusting a foreign government to destroy that data
so where we now have george bush claiming that the data was destroyed to prevent the data from falling into the hands of a foreign government, the shit stain wants to turn that data over to a foreign government in the first fucking place
fucking brilliant
I’m sure that the shit stain’s Medal of Freedom is in the mail
that lack of intellectual curiosity is starting to show, shit stain
guess you didn’t have a lot of time to figure that one out either, huh ???
back to the drawing board …
I find your over-the-top ad hominems far more offensive than JodiDog’s mere incomprehension. Even a true concern troll doesn’t merit what you’re dishing out.
Oh, and bmaz, thanks so much for this post; a real eye-opener.
Waxman may have Fitz’ non-GJ documentation, presumably including Bush and Cheney’s interviews regarding the Insta-declassification of the ’something’ that was leaked to Judy Miller…
Even money says Bush Compartmentalized Rodriguez from the Rest of CIA and Ordered him to Destroy the Tapes - but, there’s at least one copy of the Torture Tapes ‘out there’…and Bush knows it.
The USAs were put on The List for reasons of Political and Criminal Expediency.
Court Orders were Willfully Non-Complied-with in Kennedy’s and Brinkema’s Courts…
Seems pretty clear that Canary called Rove and Got Bush to ‘fix’ the Siegelman Case through PIN…
It’s likely that Bush Pioneer Jack Abramoff knew Bush much more familiarly than Bush let on…
Bush left for Crawford today and…
…he might not come back.
We may see Cornyn and Kyl, the Pardoners, take over for the last 12 months…
Bush will Run Away before he’s held Accountable.
Thanks for saying that. The problem is that when discussion anywhere devolves to berating others, then you scare people away from commenting, who may fear being berated, and additionally you turn off people from reading.
Civil discussion. I find Jodi’s comments civil. But something was surely eating at “freepatriot” and I say: “cool it. think before you speak… and treat Jodi and everyone with respect.” (that includes this comment, should you happen by)
… according to an “anonymous source”.
This attributed advice seems very out of character to me… Negroponte’s activities have been 100% negligent of any legal (not to mention moral) proprieties in virtually every policy endeavor he’s puppet-mastered.
Personally, I’d have to see proof to believe his opposition as stated, and would bet good $$ his intent/actions were the opposite. Everything I’ve seen all these years says Negroponte is as vile a character as any of W’s war criminals.
Where do you suppose the one copy of the CIA tapes is being held? By whom?
and, what is this: Seems pretty clear that Canary called Rove and Got Bush to ‘fix’ the Siegelman Case through PIN… PIN?
Thanks.
Negroponte has a long track record extending back to the LBJ years,
key player in many rough areas, most notoriously the death squads activity
in El Salvador and the Iran-Contra operations. Always came out “clean”,
in a technical sense, just the type to protect himself with documented
opposition to “tape destruction”… if a stray copy were to surface it
could be to protect someone “opposed” to the fix or the policy after the
fact, hard to narrow it much more than that without additional facts.
TheraP and ralphbon,
Please go over to ew’s old digs at tnh and read the history of the relationship between ew, Jodi, freepatriot, and other long-time commenters in ew’s community. You can’t understand the current interactions without that background. My best advice is to ignore Jodi and freepatriot’s responses to her.
Although I once entertained the notion of writing a software agent to mimic Jodi’s commenting style (which I find simultaneously incomprehensible and predictable), I now find her schtick more and more tiresome (probably because the identity system here defeats the impersonators who infused her persona with a certain amount of variation at tnh).
jdmckay - I understand Negroponte’s long record. However, he is, unlike many in the Bush historical story, a competent and bright actor, irrespective of what you may think of his actions. It is just my gut, but I tend to think that Negroponte is what he appears to be in this story. Could easily be wrong, but that is my considered opinion so far….
Ralphbon and TheraP - I don’t quite know how to explain the Freepatriot/Jodi dynamic. It kind of just is what it is; but they both co-exist within in it, and I have actually seen them show glimpses of care for the other on occasion. But just as we have a house troll, Jodi, we have a house troll minder, Freepatriot. This I will say, I don’t believe I have ever seen freepatriot attack anybody that was not a troll and that did not need attacking (if so it is so rare i cannot think of it); you are not in danger of being so accosted. There is not as much evidence since the move to the new digs here of the basis of the “troll dynamic” that resulted in this unusual setup that exists, but if you had been around longer term, you would know there is a legitimate basis for the nickname that is, at this point, strangely almost affectionately applied to Jodi. If you are going to have a troll, you can do far worse than Jodi; and Freepatriot is the consummate troll minder. I say all this not to agree or disagree with your comments, simply to lend what I have observed in my time around these parts.
PIN is the Public Integrity Section at the Department of Justice.
Curious - PIN stands for Public INtegrity section, and it’s an organization within DoJ - at the time of the Siegelman Case, headed by a guy named Noel Hillman, who just got subpoenaed - that has the Power to assign Prosecutorial and Judicial Resources to certain Cases.
In the Siegelman Case, it appears an Alabama Political Boss, named Canary, used his Political connection to Karl Rove to have Bush ‘get involved’ through PIN in the assignment of the Prosecutors and the Judge (who appears to have had a $100 Million conflict of interest) - to Railroad former Governor Siegelman into Prison on trumped-up Charges.
If you have the time, this series in Salon is world-class writing from Scott Horton:
http://www.harpers.org/subject...../BlogEntry
On the Tapes, I’m of the same opinion that others have expressed here - there was electronic transmission - so intercepted and decrypted copies could be all over the Global Intelligence Community. Personally, I think Putin has a copy - and he backed Bush off of Iran with it, but that’s jmho.
If any foreign Country is determined to have hosted the Torture or held the Tapes or Secretly made their own Tapes of the Torture, then we have to remove Bush and Cheney from office, for no other reason than to protect the Country from Blackmail - and then let the Law deal with them.
In addition, if Abu Ghraib is any indication, BushCo was very Cavalier in their Depravity, and did very little at the time it was happening to stop Trophy Collecting of Torture Porn - there could be ‘highlight reels’ of those Tapes floating around out there, for all we know.
I find the use of the “ss” words highly offensive. This is not an effective way to deal with a troll as it fouls the general nest. Could you try another formulation freepatriot?
Thanks WO, I will do as you recommend. Obviously that fits with my own “bent” and I will learn a lot I’m sure. Your perspective is much appreciated.
I agree with all the legal analysis, but where I have to sigh is when we meet the issue of implementation of the legal analysis. Who is going to implement? The same people who are destroying records.
If anyone cared about the Presidential Records Act, Fitzgerald would have generated or participated in some kind of reaction to all the missing emails his investigation began to turn up, or someone would have done something in all the investigations since. If the law still meant anything, Cheney’s butt would be in a sling. Instead, you have Addington sending emails, striking through the job title of the man who raised the illegality of Cheney’s actions. http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004979.php (”Anyplace you saw the words, “the director of ISOO” or “ISOO” it was struck.”)
You also have blatant, outright, repeatedly acknowledged violations by the President of the National Security Act, from planting domestic propaganda via Judy Miller to the refusal to brief the gang of 8 and making up out of whole cloth some “gang of 4″ briefings that clearly violate the statute and being incomplete even with those briefings.
Before you even get to the destruction of tapes, you have the failure to turn them over (an obstruction that isn’t getting attention). Still, there is a bit of a difference for Rodriguez. Over and over, the meme is that the President can do whatever he wants, without regard to statute, and order others to do whatever he wants, without regard to statute and with “authorized” depravity, but if Rodriguez really did act without Presidential authorization, he’s taking it all to the next step - actually, a step many at DOJ already took when they excused each other from culpability for things that were perhaps “less than” authorized in a written trail. Rodriguez is saying the Executive Branch as a whole doesn’t really have to follow the law if they can get a departmental lawyer to paper up an out for them, just like OLC papered up outs for kidnapping and abusing children and torturing innocent protected persons and sinking into the filth of sexually and physically humiliating a person as they systematically broke their mind and made them bark like dogs, urinate and defecate on themselves while naked and chained in stress positions and made them lose their minds in unrelenting isolation.
Even without a presidential order (which he may have had - who knows?) Rodriguez is really putting the “an OLC opinion is a get out of hell free card” argument to the sword by saying - then my departmental lawyer ok is too. Bc the arguments are in kind.
We already know that this DOJ, with the last two Congresses - Republican and Dem led, have restructured law to not include the President even when he kidnapps children and leaves tortured men stripped and chained to freeze to death. Whether he is illegally engaging in domestic propaganda for a war that will create the greatest refugee crisis in the world, or allowing Rove to ditch emails, the DOJ is there to make sure that the laws can be fully broken at whim and courts and the public lied to until the lies are revealed, then made to understand that lies and the truth are all the same when it comes to accountability.
Oh sure, the law may be “found” again in the future, under a rock somewhere, waiting for a different President. But it won’t matter. They’ve shown that anytime a cabal of loyal Bushies chooses, they can use “the law” as nothing more than a poltical tool for torture and war. Once it’s been shown to be nothing more than fools gold, it won’t ever have real value again. That’s so unforgiveable that I have a hard time not beating the dead horse in frustration, but I know I have to give it up bc it doesn’t really accomplish anything.
I wonder if CPowell knew anything about this, or if Rice kept the tapes’ existence a secret from him. Further I would expect Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld to have fretted a lot about the tapes’ existence especially if reviewed now a posteriori in the perspective of definite concerns by the likes of Sarkozy and Merkel, the current ‘Old Europe’ leaders, that publication of UStortchaVideo would reinforce their respective opposition parties, given the sorry tales of Berlusconi and Aznar’s political demise following the numerous US belligerency related scandals which rooted foremost in the tabloid quality of the AbuGhraibImages’ publication.
On a different note, the Boston Globe has run a story on what seems to me to be another very basic question that is going unasked. Why weren’t ALL interrogations of ALL detainees recorded? I spec’d before that if what you wanted and needed was “ticking time bomb” or other intelligence, you’d record every word. The only reasons you wouldn’t would be to be able to manufacture intelligence for Cheney and Bush’s personal appetites. While they don’t go to the “why wouln’t you” point, the interrogation experts in the Globe piece do go into the “why you should record” aspects and lament the loss of so much intelligence record.
http://www.boston.com/news/nat.....ional+news
It tangentially makes me think, too, of the USA who caught so much flack supposedly because of his push to have FBI interrogations recorded.
M’ry, SAckerman has a nice Year in Review two paragraph article today about Addington’s efforts to abolish ISOO once the archivist ordered AGAG to issue an opinion on whether FourthBranch had an EO exempting VP from complying with archiving regs that keep the presidency within the rule of law for document preservation.
Mary,
I think you’ve hit on something important about the videotaping of interrogations. It’s very clear that many within the domestic law enforcement community view videotaping as losing proposition (as in losing control of the narrative). For the torture of supposed terrorists, I’m amazed they even allowed it any case.
Mary, you are doing a tremendous service here! Don’t give up on your righteous anger over this. I have become your loyal reader. And I totally agree with you that all interrogations should be recorded. It’s the only way to place a check on the power of anyone who is questioning an incarcerated person. It may have to done for loans and other things soon as well!
So thank you for all your informative comments. It may not be making a difference yet. But hopefully eventually.
I think the issue of torture is so upsetting that many people literally do not pursue it. So keep on this. I think in term so of my own work, that people who have been tortured as children, and I’m talking in the US, most therapists can only handle a few of these people. It’s hard stuff to stomach. And leads to so much emotional overflow into the therapeutic relationship.
So, again, thanks. Every time you post… I look for them!
Thanks very much. I’m reading the Harpers article.
That was Charlton. I actually have a bit o experience on interrogatio/ confession law with a distinct emphasis on coerced confessions. Tortured confessions are a part of that whole. There are a number of true experts out there, each with their own views, but certain basics are universally agreed to for the most part. Taping of critical interrogations/confessions is one of them. The unreliability and uselessness of tortured/coerced confessions is another. If you are interested, my favorite two that I have worked with are Gisli Gudjonsson and Richard Ofshe.
It’s a different topic, but same issue. For children who have been abused, it’s important to tape the testimony and to be sure that the questioner is not “leading” the child. It protects the child - sometimes from having to testify in court - and it protects the accused. And of course the questioner.
It should be the same in any criminal proceeding, it seems to me. There should be a record. And three parties are protected by that recording. The person being questioned, the interrogator/questioner, and the state or other aggrieved party.
Seems only logical to me. but then bushco has altered even logic…
And this goes to TheraP’s comment @50 as well. You are right about the hesitancy of domestic law enforcement and it is because they do not truly want a record of the tactics they use; even though most of them are, sometimes regrettably, at least minimally legal. Thing is, if you are truly interested in obtaining the most benefit from a critical interrogation, the ability to review a videotape of it is invaluable for allowing considered long term analysis and careful evaluation for physical cues from the subject. Problem is, the tactics that most use are not very attractive to the average citizen and, almost invariably, while the basic tactics interrogators utilize are legal, they impermissibly exceed the parameters thereof habitually and don’t want a record of that. Doing it the right way, getting the best evidentiary record thereof and obtaining convictions properly and legally never really seems to enter the equation with law enforcement. Go figure…..
So they tape to solidify the prosecution fact set by whatever technique,
and to map defense discovery points, then, destroy record to prevent any
discovery. Slam Dunk. My hope is for an EX PFC Wintergreen character in
the bowels of communication having an unauthorised copy just for the randy
hell of it… not as likely as some legal type looking to flip.
So I say let’s turn the “intelligence” question on its head. Stop surveilling the populace. And start surveilling the interrogators - and while we’re at it the loan purveyors.
Agreed completely.
Do they talk themselves into being stupid? I’m trying to grasp the mindset. To torture in the first place and to tape it in the second — what have they been talked into?
TheraP and WO (Mary too) - For an idea of how these concepts fit into the domestic, non-torture, framework this recent court decision in the case of Martin Tankleff, in an almost two decade old case, gives a good look into the general area.
From the EU Parliamentary site:
“Legal advice should be sought on those actions considered a violation inter alia of
Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union, Articles 2, 3, 5 and 6 of the European
Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, the
Charter of Fundamental Rights, the UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel,
Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, the EU-US agreements on
extradition and on mutual legal assistance and other international treaties and
agreements concluded by the European Union/Community and its Member States,
including the North Atlantic Treaty and its related agreements on the status of forces
(in particular, the agreements concerning the use of American bases in the territory of
EU Member States and acceding countries) and the Convention on International Civil
Aviation.”
I wonder how many breaches of treaty one can find…
Is it important to make a potential distinction between those who are killed by accident through the use of torture and those killed purposely through the use of torture. I suspect this may become an issue.
should we do the same for child abuse… those killed by accident and those on purpose????
sorry… I’m not following you.
I fail to see any distinction of merit there. Torture is illegal, immoral, unreliable and ineffective for the purpose intended, i.e. useable information and evidence. Torturing someone is an intentional criminal act, whether the torturer intended the death is somewhat immaterial. Think of it in terms of the felony murder rule.
I wonder, bmaz, does Rod perhaps mean not that the penalties or legal analysis should be different, but rather that “extended interrogation techniques” may have in some cases been used as a pretext/cover for deliberate murder? As in “Oops, gosh, we sure didn’t mean for that to happen!”
A distinction without a difference, really.
I suppose you would have to define who “they” are. You have those who set the policy, those who transmit it, those who run and maintain the torture facilities, those who work at them (communications, guard and physical plant staff), those directly involved in the interrogations (interrogators, contractors, supervisors, medical staff, notetakers, video camera people, etc.), and finally those who analyze the interrogation work product. Outside the policy setters, most of the rest feel probably correctly that they are and will remain anonymous and therefore effectively free of responsibility for their actions and complicity in torture. The Bush Administration has not only sanctioned their activities but praised them. It has repeated many times that it does not recognize their torture related activities as torture. The Congress has signaled too through the MCA that it too supports their actions. So who is going to prosecute them? Look at the politics. There will be no war crimes tribunal. Yes, there may be civil suits, but these look destined to be lost in a maze of state secret arguments. So to answer your question, no, these guys are not stupid. They have a very good idea of what they were doing and know that they are extremely unlikely to pay any price for it.
Torture was normalized to some extent by the administration. They have not accomplished this with murder yet. There is a greater potency to consideration of the deaths as murder.
Thank you for that link, bmaz. I find it interesting because of his age in particular. I do not have the reference though I will try to find it. But within the past year or so (maybe several), there was a review and article in The American Psychologist, which looked at suggestibility in police interrogations, particularly among adolescents. It was found that adolescents are very vulnerable to being “suggested” into confessing crimes, to literally manufacturing memories based upon being interrogated for long periods, given false suggestions and so on.
That was clearly operating in the case you referred to. But I think it’s a similar phenomenon that interrogators using torture and other mind control methods are trying to accomplish - to break down the personality to the point where suggestion becomes “reality” for the person. This of course happens routinely in child abuse as well, where the perpetrator wants not just sex etc. with a child but wants the child to believe they “wanted” the abuse.
Well, for me, this is just so upsetting on so many levels. And I am truly committed, to whatever degree that means, to eradicate this horrible and inhumane treatment at the hands of the authorities. It’s bad enough that people do it in secret and on their own. And they should be punished as well. But it’s even worse when the state does it! When a crime becomes a “means” of state control.
My fingers are literally seizing up in anger… hard to type!
Rod, the best defense against terrorism is a free and open society. Once we allow our government to torture anyone, the normal flow of RELIABLE information dries up. People who have that kind of information are understandably unwilling to share it. They don’t want to get “renditioned” and tortured.
FWIW
and an extreme long shot, From a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article:“Under the state’s John Doe law, citizens can force judges to hold hearings by sending them letters alleging a crime has been committed. The judge must take testimony from the person who sent the letter and any witnesses he or she produces … .
1. It’s doubtful, but I was wondering if anything similar exists in old Federal statutes.
2. If not, could progressives use Wisconsin courts (A state with a long progressive tradition, WI refused to implement the Fugitive Slave Law. ) as a toehold for fighting torture? This goes to the heart of what the founders meant by Federalism. At least getting cases filed in a state court provides minimum traction and some exposure in the media?
IANAL, so laughter is anticipated.
Hugh did a lovely job @63 of discussing this from the point of view of the hierarchy of what happens with regard to torture.
I’ve been thinking of something different. I’ve been thinking about how language works. How language is the basis of this “policy.” How little by little, you change the meanings of words, the meanings of phrases. How by changing those meanings and then writing down policies, in great and elaborate detail, you make something horrendous seem nothing more than a “procurement” agreement… something like a contract to procure information.
So, by codifying everything, as if you were simply detailing the manufacture, specifications, transportation, and distribution of a commodity, as simple as “nails” of various sizes and materials, etc. you turn a stomach-turning, headache inducing, moral evil into something banal, boring, devoid of emotion.
Now of course that is not the case in the torture room. But who gets chosen to be a torturer? Who remains as a torturer? Maybe they have rules and regulations for that too…. so the procurement and training of such individuals also becomes banal, boring, etc.
But it seems to me that language undergirds all of this. A bureaucratic mentality. That a layer of that lies between the sociopathic leaders and the dregs who become or remain the torturers.
It’s like something out of Kafka to think this is now occurring and sanctioned in our society. It’s like reading about the Nazis. Or The Gulag Archipelago, a book I tried (and failed) to read when it came out - it was just too upsetting to read about the torture … on and on.
And here we are. I’d be interested in whether others see any merit in these musings I’ve been having… and that I think relate to the questions raised above.
And if so, what about using it to get an impeachment going?
If that’s the case, I’d be prepared to join you and others in lodging a complaint! There are so many crimes, we could just use Hugh’s list!
Graham Greene … Hannah Arendt … It is stupidity, both moral and practical stupidity. People torture other people because they just want to keep their jobs? I do understand and empathize deeply with the shock of 9/11 — the son of a dear old friend was at Windows on the World that morning, so I know some of what people have gone through. But you can’t run foreign policy forever that way, not when the dead bodies are piling up in their hundreds of thousands elsewhere.
This is O/T, and I apologize, but our (Conservative) prime minister and minister of defence have just used Boxing Day to recite Dick Cheney’s talking-points about Iran, and I am so angry I could spit. Listening to the two of them, I feel as though I’m living through some dreadful replay. Our minister of defence actually took the American ambassador to Canada along with him on his visit to the troops in Afghanistan, and there they are singing from Cheney’s playbook.
Oh, I am so angry.
I had the same experience with the Gulag Archipelago you describe. It
came out after we knew quite a lot about the Phoenix program and the
tiger cages,”interrogation facilities”, used by this program on Con Son
island off Vietnam. Pentagonese was the subject of much dark antiwar
humour as well, “Megadeath” comes to mind as does”pacification”. It has
never really stopped, this eliding the meaning of plain speech into a
thought control tool, reread some Orwell and know you are never far from
this phenomenon. Television destroys language by repetition disconnected
to meaningful images, they select the image then burn in an elided term
for it. Text restores the imagery of the individual reader… problem is
essential literacy has descended into aliteracy by visual overload in
recent times. RIF Reading Is Fundamental.
Agreed and thanks. If anyone is still reading, and on this topic but at the cost of repeating myself:
“trolls were extended warm greetings by many and sundry last night [i.e. 12/24] on, I believe, Egregious’s watch.
it may not be pretty but it works
stain shup up. didn’t it ???
my methods have reduced the shit stain to posting “late replies” at TNH, cuz it can’t show it’s face when the discussion is actually occuring
ya gotta fight fire with fire
there is NO room for compassion here
if you treat the shit stain with kindness, you only encourage it. If you engage the shit stain’s foolish statments, you let the shit stain win
if you heap ridicule and scorn on shit stain personally, the shit stain begins to doubt itself
I don’t ignore shit stains. I scrub them away
all your trolls are belong to me
IMHO you over-reacted. Who appointed you captain of the thought police?
I am willing to tolerate more diversity of opinion, even some troll-ish behavior. I know where my delete key and Page Down keys are, and I don’t need you to purify the comments for me.
YMMV, IMHO, etc.
Bob in HI
Hey, FP, Merry Christmas!
o/t over at Think Progress they caught a new piece out over at Newsweek
http://thinkprogress.org/
“David Addington pushed to eliminate job of national architivist who challenged Cheney”
Among the quotes: “A number of prosecution exhibits in the Plane related perjury trial…were annotated “handle as SCI”
…they were conferring on the plane about coming up with a media response to the allegations of Plame’s husband.
No new news there, but someday it would be nice to see the SCI police show up and take that damn “Handle as SCI” stamp away from Cheney & Addington.
Well TheraP, if you liked the Tankleff case, you will absolutely love this one. I am going to give you three links; they are to each part of a three part series regarding the series of false confessions obtained in a rather infamous case known colloquially as the “Buddhist Temple Murder Case”.
Part One
Part Two
Part Three
Sorry for the combined length, but I think you, and any others interested, will find it a simply remarkable and compelling story. You previously mentioned “suggestability” and other devices for implanting the information desired to be regurgitated by the subject in his confession. Pay particular attention to the methods used here, notably the “prop room”. This case is literally now one of the “textbook cases” in the field. As an aside, I was the lead attorney for a couple of plaintiffs from the “Tucson Four”, that were caused to falsely confess, in the civil rights suit brought after their eventual exoneration on the criminal charges.
Bob, just fyi, I have never known freepatriot to ever in anyway try to dampen the diversity of opinion.
One of freepatriot’s early nicknames for her was “Tokyo Jodi.” Later iterations of Jodi were clearly not the same as the initial troll, who I believe really had a brother serving in Iraq. This has led many of us to speculate that “Jodi” gets paid by the post from some neocon troll factory.
S/he is probably also reporting back/cataloguing the topics emptywheel is covering.
Again, I encourage people to go over to tnh and read through the archives for the background on Jodi and freepatriot. I stand by my position that the best way to foster the intelligent discussion that is the hallmark of the ew community is to ignore Jodi’s comments and freepatriot’s responses. If you read through the threads over at tnh, you’ll discover that freepatriot has contributed much to our continuing discussion. You’ll also discover that I have some differences of opinion with him on how best to handle Jodi. I doubt you’ll get him to change his mind.
In the spirit of the season, I wish you and all the others here peace and goodwill.
Aw come on guys, you are letting Jodi bust up the thread without even freaking being here; give it a rest.
why thank you for the compliment, and thanks for noticing
I ain’t the “captain of the thought police”, but somewhere along the line, I was given custody of the shit stain
the best way to stop the shit stain from attacking posters around here is to launch pre-emptive attacks on the shit stain
go and read the shit stain’s history at TNH
after a while, you’ll realize that you’re actually seeing the “Kinder and gentler” shit stain
but it’s still a shit stain
the shit stain isn’t an “alternative view point”
the shit stain is a repuglitard operative who only posts repuglitard talking points
go and read the shit stain’s explanations of why scooter libby should be acquitted, and you’ll soon realize what the shit stain’s objective is
don’t defend the shit stain
it has earned our derision and ridicule a hundred times over
I find the gist of the argument here persuasive (though not the fir